Israel eta NATO zale estatu guztiak Palestinaren aurka (34)

US President Harry Truman (1945-1953) stands next to a map showing the State of Palestine.

Israel is not real.

“I SWEAR TO BE LOYAL TO THE GOVERNMENT OF PALESTINE” SIGNED BY ISRAELIS WHEN EMIGRATING FROM EUROPE IN THE 1930s

oooooo

Lord Rothschild Claims His Family Created Israel

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpZT5hEh8Q

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maria@maria_mhr07

Alison Weir reveals the secret of Israel’s creation:

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1807269838907224331

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Read the resolutions text here: https://www.un.org/unispal/icj-and-question-of-palestine

ooooooo

Dr. Anastasia Maria Loupis@DrLoupis

At the time of writing, war is spreading throughout West Asia. Of course, this is widely understood as an outgrowth of Israeli expansion and the ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. This week’s guest is back on Downstream to provide a century’s worth of historical context to enrich the way in which we think about the ongoing crisis.

Ilan Pappé is a historian and author of the new book ‘A Very Short History of Israel-Palestine Conflict’. He sat down with Aaron to talk about the lack of a viable left in Israel, why nation-states don’t work in the Middle East and why, ultimately, the British Empire is to blame.

00:00 Intro

02:43 What are Things Like in Israel Right Now

10:38 A Region at War

19:18 The Israeli Economy

24:08 The Existential Threat for Israel

33:07 What Happened in 2006

41:31 Is Israel Interested in a Two-State Solution?

46:13 What’s Up With Jordan?

57:03 Empires, Nations & Pan Arabism

01:13:33 Jewish Safety

Transkripzioa:

Intro

0:00

the Israeli state and its policies towards the Palestinians and this can be proved had increased anti-Semitism did

0:08

not decrease anti-Semitism the insistence of Israel that Zionism Judaism are the

0:15

same allowed a lot of anti-semites to say well what Israel is doing is Jewish

0:21

so even if you are a Jew in London who has nothing to do with Israel you are a Zionist by default because you are a Jew

0:30

[Music] today’s guest last appeared on Downstream less than 6 months ago and

0:36

back then we talked about his new book a history of not just Zionism but the Zionist Lobby particularly in the UK and

0:43

the US now it’s not common for us to reinvite somebody back on so quickly but

0:51

I guess today is one of the outstanding voices on the Israel Palestine conflict

0:57

he’s been regularly visiting Israel over the last year and he’s got a new book

1:02

out too a very short history of the Israel Palestine conflict only 144 pages

1:08

but there’s a hell of a lot in there he’s one of the most important academics chronicling the NABA in his seminal book

1:15

the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and like I say a truly unique and formidable

1:21

voice in terms of how this conflict has played out and continues to play out

1:27

Elan Pape welcome to Downstream great to be here thank you it’s great to have you back thank you after a short while

1:33

that’s lovely to be again here we I think we had you on five months ago and that that conversation around Zionism

1:39

the history of the Zionist Lobby is racing to a million views so that’s very encouraging to hear it yeah we’re

1:47

talking today about your new book you’re a prodigious prolific writer uh a very short history of the Israel Palestine

1:53

conflict 144 pages I believe um and I would say I think you know we’re coming

1:59

up to Christmas it’s a great gift uh for somebody who necessarily isn’t that familiar with the

2:05

details but might share something on Instagram and you think okay they’re interested in this they want to know

2:11

more it’s very dense it’s something I was talking about actually ear with my colleague is that often with books of

2:16

this manner like um um Rashid khi or yourself

2:23

you can often have four 500 page books right so this was great uh but before we talk about the

2:29

content book a short history of the Israel Palestine conflict which really spans more than a century I want to know how you’re

2:35

feeling about things generally because you’re you’re regularly going between UK and Israel right now that’s right that’s

2:42

right so how are things over there well I think you you you meet uh a

2:47

traumatized Jewish Society there um not entirely sure about the

2:55

Horizon still deeply divided between what what I used to call uh recently the

3:02

state of Judea namely those who are behind the Messianic Zionism that uh the

3:08

new political forces in power are bringing with them so they are more

3:14

confident that they are in an historical moment that would uh unfold uh in a

3:20

positive way where Israel would complete the Takeover of Palestine would become a

3:26

power that deters everyone around them so you have that section of of of the

3:31

society who probably are less frightened are less traumatized uh and are more convinced

3:38

that they are part of a big uh historical story and and they are playing a very positive part I would say

3:45

that the vast majority not the vast majority but I think more than than 50% uh are feeling

3:52

insecure um even if they are not directly affected by missiles coming

3:58

from uh Lebanon Iran Jordan Iraq or recently from the Yemen uh the fact that

4:06

every now and then they have to rush to a shelter because of the sirens uh you know when it is a daily Affair it become

4:13

it accumulates uh and uh more worrying for them I think is not so much the

4:20

experience of the bombing H but rather the lack of future the lack of horizon

4:28

they could sort of ask themselves all right right let’s let’s say this is a difficult period but maybe something

4:35

more positive is awaiting us and they can’t hear from their own leaders most of them would be in the opposition of

4:41

the more reasonable Israeli Jews would be in the opposition would not be part of the government but even those leaders

4:47

don’t have any uh uh very positive vision for the future they keep telling

4:53

them this is life and that’s how life is going to be for 20 30 40 years God knows

4:59

py because of war that Israel has to win not allowed to lose uh and not surprisingly the last

5:06

statistics we saw few days ago of 600,000 Israelis who already left

5:11

immigrated all of them 600,000 600,000 all of them by the way from that group

5:18

of people who would have voted for more Central liberal Zionist parties uh

5:24

people with dual nationality mainly European Jews and people with jobs that

5:29

they can reignite elsewhere uh and and one of and that is not because they are

5:35

morally depressed by the way Israel treats the Palestinians or they are worried about the implications of the

5:42

genocide it’s just thinking about their children and grandchildren asking themselves is this a place to to be in

5:50

when we have options of course there are many Israeli Jews who came from Arab and

5:55

Muslim countries who don’t have dual nationality uh and don’t have that many options outside but one should say

6:03

they’re also more supportive of the current political uh forces uh in a very

6:09

ironically way in in a way that would would be much more uh uh catastrophic

6:15

for them than for the Jews who can leave uh but that’s another story maybe so so

6:21

this is the mood um among the public among the politicians you have this go

6:28

the current government made of almost to the last minister of people who believe

6:34

that they are in the middle of an historical the I call it historical

6:40

window or window of opportunity to change dramatically the reality not only in historical Palestine

6:47

but in the Middle East by Power by force uh that yes it is costly it is dangerous

6:55

but uh it’s worth the effort and uh and I I think some of them genuinely believe

7:01

in it some of them like Netanyahu don’t believe in anything but think that this kind of you know ideology will keep him

7:09

in power uh he’s a political Survivor more than an ideologue and uh they

7:17

are hoping I think that Donald Trump would be elected in the United States make it they think would make it easier

7:24

for them they are Allied to all the right-wing parties in in the west uh to

7:29

to uh moodi in in India um so you have this political current political and

7:36

Military Elite that thinks that it got over the trauma of the 7th of

7:43

October reinstated the military as a powerful tool in the area and now it’s

7:49

time to use it to create more conducive uh conditions in the future what I’m

7:55

trying to say is that a lot of Israeli Jews don’t share this confidence

8:01

uh do not rejoice at this uh scenario um and yet don’t have any

8:07

political leaders that offer an alternative and therefore it’s difficult to see how this

8:14

government would be toppled or would dramatically lose in the next election

8:19

2026 I presume it would take something I can into a form of military defeat which mhm isn’t on the cards right now right

8:27

now no exhaustion maybe but exhaus takes a while yeah absolutely God knows how

8:33

the exchange of blows between Israel and Iran would uh you know unfold it’s a

8:41

bizarre exchange if you look at it objectively not one Iranian was killed

8:46

in this exchange not one Israeli was killed the only people who are being killed in large numbers are Palestinians

8:53

and Lebanese and yet if you look at the headlines in the newspaper it says Iran and Israel are at War

9:00

it’s a very bizarre War if nobody is nobody’s you know hurt nobody is being

9:07

uh there are no casualties between Iran and Israel in this Regional War which

9:13

makes you think a little bit about this to my mind this whole Regional

9:19

War uh you know scare is serving Israel very well

9:25

serving the United States very well it distracts us from from the real issue

9:31

which is an immun international immunity for the genocide of the Palestinians and the genuine Israeli attempt to wipe out

9:39

the Palestinian as a people and as a country uh and the more you talk about a

9:45

regional War uh the more you talk about the danger of an escalation the less you will talk about

9:52

what Israel is doing not only in the Gaza stet but also in the west bank and to its own Palestinian

9:58

citizens uh it was always the fate of Palestine that uh in order to uh allow

10:05

Israel actually sometimes inadvertedly you know unintentionally allowing Israel

10:11

to do what it does to the Palestinians by claiming that there’s a bigger question here there’s a bigger picture

10:17

there’s no bigger picture here it’s the same picture for 120 years a European

10:22

solution for European problem at the expense of the Palestinians that should have failed

10:29

long time ago but succeeds despite the Palestinian resistance but maybe is

10:35

entering its final stage who knows we might talk about it a bit later it’s final stage powerful words that’s

10:41

interesting um in terms of the regional War I suppose the counterargument is that there is already a a regional war

10:48

or if not a regional War a region at War because you’ve said obviously the West Bank Lebanon Syria too I don’t think

10:54

people are really on this like they should be but there was a Syrian TV journalist killed a few weeks ago by

11:00

um an Israeli projectile obviously Yemen as well hadida their a few coastal towns

11:07

and cities have been hit repeatedly by the IDF so that is a really and like you say the yemenis are also sending projectiles towards Israel which you

11:14

know if you’d said that 10 years ago people would just of absolutely had their jaw drop and say how on Earth that is that working so we are in New and

11:20

unprecedented Waters in that regard but you’re right that fundamentally um this

11:26

this Mexican standoff between Iran and Israel people are saying could it become a hot War I think it could become a hot War

11:33

but only if Netanyahu and the Israel government think that there’s an

11:38

existential threat which they obviously don’t because right now it remains a war of aggression and a war of um addition

11:45

they are trying to take new territories or they are trying to press home perceive political Advantage it’s not a war for survival um you said as well uh

11:55

about how this could be the end of Israel MH how is that connected to the people that

12:02

are leaving because I presume those 600,000 people as you’ve insinuated primarily of European Heritage European

12:07

Jews je Nationals going back to the us as well of course and as you’ve said those are the people more likely to vote

12:13

for parties which aren’t on the far right or L good so looking at it

12:18

abstractly doesn’t that doesn’t that help L good doesn’t that cement Israel as this

12:24

ethnonationalist far right State well first of all I I will answer that

12:29

directly I just want to say one more point on Iran I don’t know many cases in history where we you had what you saw a

12:37

week ago the United States sort of negotiating with Iran and Israel where

12:43

will Israel hit in Iran talking about you know this catastrophic Regional War

12:50

there’s a lot of game playing here but coming back to your very important question yes it’s it is the there are s

13:00

indications which I call cracks in the structure that is called the state of

13:05

Israel that are already extensive but have been even become more extensive

13:11

after the Hamas attack on the 7th of October 2023 uh one of these indications is uh

13:19

the Israeli Mass immigration uh not so much because of

13:24

the number but because of who these people are they form an important part of the the political of the economic

13:31

Elite the cultural Elite so yes in a way it serves the liud well in electoral

13:38

terms but in the long run uh this is part of an elite or human capital that

13:45

the state would need uh in order to thrive and uh to deal economically I

13:52

would say even militarily uh with the challenges that is ahead of it uh not to mention the

13:59

fact that we are talking of some of the more affluent Israelis uh you know the

14:05

high-tech Elite that are not just moving themselves out of the country they’re moving the capital out of the country

14:12

and this was already noticed by uh Moody and SNP those International firms that

14:20

uh decide whether a country is worth investing in or not uh and you know

14:25

Israel was down kept is keep kept being down graded as an unsafe uh

14:33

investment destination so uh yes it is connected it is connected it’s not the

14:38

only process or not the only symptoms of that uh uh disintegration of a state uh

14:45

no less important is the lack of social cohesion the secular and the religious Jews in Israel find it very difficult to

14:53

find a common ground uh this is not anymore it’s not even brexit of Britain

14:59

the depths of hate mistrust and uh occasional clashes uh it’s deteriorating

15:07

into very fast into a proper Civil War so it’s not just the you know I I talked

15:13

about brexit because you can have a very rough period where people really disagree and families can you know torn

15:22

apart but this is much more than that uh so that’s one indic another indicator uh

15:27

the fact that the Jewish community ities in the world especially the young ones uh do not see themselves as zionists

15:33

anymore do not see Jewish identity as necessarily connected to Zionism that’s a new phenomenon especially in the

15:40

United States especially among the younger generation the international uh uh isolation of Israel has been

15:47

increased as well uh it’s economic I already mentioned economic situation uh

15:55

it totally it will be totally relying relying now on American financial aid like never before uh and I’m not sure

16:03

that the invincibility of the army has been proven to be maintained uh uh even that is a bit uh

16:12

iffy right now um so if you take all these processes together uh they might

16:19

be discret disconnected but uh they can fuse into one explosive point in the

16:26

future so I’m not thinking about the next few years years I’m talking about long-term processes uh that can mature

16:33

in 15 20 years time but uh it will not be the only failed state in that area

16:40

Syria is a failed State this integrating now for God knows more than 12 years uh

16:45

Yemen is disintegrating as a state Libya doesn’t exist anymore as a state Lebanon

16:51

and Iraq are in very precarious uh moment in their history so that that is

16:57

not surprising that Israel and Palestine are part of it probably the only stable

17:03

States right now are the monarchies uh but monarchies by themselves you know the raon of

17:10

monarchies is that they’re never safe especially absolute monarchies are never safe uh so uh this the area as a whole

17:19

uh is conducive for uh collapses such as the one that I think we are already

17:25

witnessing but it’s very slow motion now it does hasn’t accelerated yet but can

17:31

happen yeah something I I I say a lot of conservatives and people that support

17:36

Israel um is you know for people who claim to not like refugees you sure like making them and it’s it’s true with

17:43

regards to the war on terror you know you I think you displace about 40 million people but I really think they

17:49

failed to understand that countries like Egypt Iran Pakistan I mean I’ve just say

17:54

three countries there what between them population best part of 500 million 50

18:00

million there is nothing stopping those becoming failed States and millions of people coming to Europe millions of

18:06

people coming to and of course other places too uh and so you should have a huge interest in ensuring they are

18:12

stable prosperous economies what we see instead from those people is why can’t Egypt with its runaway inflation of 30%

18:19

plus take 2.5 million Garin why can’t they do that surely if they care so much

18:24

about Palestine they should take them that could be a variable and a potential state where millions of people in a

18:30

country on the Mediterranean come to Europe but you don’t want refugees um going back to the economy

18:37

Point CU like I say you’re you’re going back pretty regularly your family’s in

18:43

higher how does it feel do you feel like you’re entering a country in recession

18:49

or does it feel worse than that because you know sometimes you get economic downturns and people say we have to tieen our belt or sometimes like you had

18:56

in this country after 2008 people realize something really apocal shifting

19:01

and actually the economy probably isn’t going to be like it was before even if you have some kind of recovery it’s

19:07

going to be profoundly different There’s No Going Back what’s the what’s the vibe like in Israel with regards to high

19:13

streets major corporations Etc what’s what’s the feel for the Israeli economy

19:18

first of all let’s let’s uh uh State uh the fact that Israel does not

19:25

control all of Israel anymore one 120,000 Israelis don’t live in the Norse

19:31

the Norse is a kind of a battlefield uh with burning houses burning Fields burning natural

19:39

reserves um the few people who stay there do not receive any of the basic

19:46

services that they need uh a similar situation is still around the Gaza Strip

19:53

so first of all you have sections of your own organic Society

19:59

that are not functioning normally for more than a year they they’re they’re living in hotels uh they may share

20:06

dwellings with their relatives and so on but they are refugees uh something

20:12

Israelis have never experienced before so that that’s one indication for a state that something is not normal in

20:20

other parts I can tell you in the North in hia in the area where I live not far

20:26

from hia and so on it’s not easy to get the usual Services anymore uh but that

20:32

might be temporary maybe some sort of a political solution between Israel uh and

20:38

hisbah would would be achieved and then maybe that that part of the sense that

20:43

the state is also fun not functioning in other parts apart from Tel Aviv and

20:48

Jerusalem may change I have to to say this but definitely in the last uh 4

20:54

months or so the sense is that also these parts of Israel so altogether we’re talking now more

21:00

than 50% of the state is not you cannot live a normal life economically socially culturally

21:09

kids don’t go to school uh uh basic services are not there uh every now and

21:15

then they try to convince parents to go to to send this the children but they’re not totally s feel safe the parents to

21:23

do though it’s it’s a very um it’s a it’s a it’s a state in a crisis the vibe

21:29

is is a crisis but again I have to stress that it’s it’s very important to

21:34

understand you you really have two israels I call it you have the state of Judea and the state of Israel you really

21:40

have two states in one state the state of Israel reacts basically normally to

21:47

that situation what is the normal reaction to a situation of War many people first of all leaving that’s

21:53

normal many people feel depressed and traumatized that’s normal

21:58

uh many people hope that uh you know the the end of the of the fighting is

22:04

near uh the state of Judea rejoices this is Armageddon this is what

22:10

we always thought should happen and would happen so it’s difficult to generalize about the mood when you have

22:17

two peoples so to speak living in the same place

22:22

um what is really for me said as as an Israeli who was involved in politics for

22:29

many many years especially among the Palestinian citizens of

22:34

Israel if the Israeli Center and left would not have been racist they could have formed an

22:40

alliance with the Palestinian citizens of Israel and become a formidable electoral Force but their racism

22:48

prevents them from collaborating with the Palestinian citizens who are willing

22:53

who are willing to work with them uh but that is not working that is not on the

22:58

table uh and therefore there’s very little Hope for Change from within we’ll return to that because the inflection

23:05

point there correct me from wrong is really around the mid 2000s M um and I

23:10

don’t think this is really talked about enough there were Alternatives things didn’t have to go in this direction but you mentioned the word Civil War a few

23:17

moments ago and this is from page 133 of her new book when Hamas breached isra borders on the 7th of October 2023 it

23:24

entered a country on the brink of a civil war that war was for forgotten for the moment as Israel rallied together to

23:30

punish every inhabitant of Gaza for the actions of Hamas but the cracks are only getting wider there is little Common

23:38

Ground between these two camps you call the state of Israel and the state of Judea it is now an important political

23:43

force the state of Judea inside Israel aiming to turn Israel into a more racist fascist and Theocratic State now I find

23:52

this really interesting and of course you’re talking about smart Rich benav the people on on on the political rise

23:58

in that country you’re speaking by analogy here

24:03

using figurative language the state of Israel the state of Juda of course for now it’s simply the state of Israel absolutely do you think there could ever

24:09

be two Jewish States in that part of the world I mean it’s not it’s not unusual

24:14

for a people to have more than one state no no I think the process we are watching is the state of Judea

24:22

swallowing the state of Israel no I don’t think there will be a state of Israel I think there will be a state of

24:27

Judea and I that’s why I think in the long run that state is not a viable

24:33

project uh so vulcanization of some kind in 50 or 100 years you don’t think that’s no no I don’t think so uh I I

24:41

think that um this is something that even for those who now feel totally

24:49

committed to Israel and ignore the genocide in Gaza ignore what’s happening

24:54

in Lebanon keep telling themselves that Israel are the good guys so to speak

24:59

despite some criticism that they have all these uh uh actors on in the region in on the

25:08

international Arena that provide Israel with an exceptional immunity would find it very difficult to grant that same

25:16

immunity to the state of Judea they will find it more difficult I’m not saying there won’t be people like you know the

25:23

Christian Zionist in America the fascists in Europe you will they will

25:28

have allies but they will have the alliance that keeps Israel alive would be downsized dramatically if I’m right

25:36

that the state of Judea becomes the future of Israel uh and I and

25:41

that decreased Alliance or smaller Alliance doesn’t wouldn’t have the power

25:46

to sustain it to my mind uh and uh and that’s that’s a process that that I’m

25:52

thinking of that I’m I think that I’m watching actually not thinking of I’m I really I’m I’m it this is not about

25:58

wishful thinking I’m trying to say to people you know I was I I said in one

26:04

lecture in the Arab world that I think we are seeing the beginning of the end

26:09

of Israel and one of the Jordanian important newspaper had the headline was

26:15

uh Professor pap says that Israel has ended so I have to be careful I I didn’t say Israel has ended I’m just saying

26:21

that there is there is a process which by the way I think should be the conversation even if you dread even if

26:28

you dread this Vision even if you’re afraid that this bodess very badly for

26:35

the Jews who live in in Israel or maybe for the Jews in the world even if you’re afraid of it not only hoping for it you

26:41

should we should have that conversation instead of the two-state solution you know instead of the agenda that the

26:47

International Community thinks is the right agenda for the day after I think

26:52

the right agenda for the day after whether you like it or not is the end of the Zionist project and what replaces it

27:00

and I think that’s really important to say that’s not about wishful thinking that’s like you say that’s drawing on these contradictions you’ve highlighted

27:06

and I think you make a very persuasive argument I look at some of the data on this there is polling in Israeli Civil

27:13

Society about whether the rule of law and equality under the law and individual human rights should matter

27:20

more than religious law Haka and you speak to ultra Orthodox Jews and I think something like 95% plus think Haka

27:26

matters more and then you speak to liberal Jews and they say they’re complete opposite and like you say they already inhabit two completely different

27:34

different moral universes and I remember reading that and just thinking you can’t you can’t run a country like that it’s

27:40

not possible countries like that have Civil Wars and of course if you say that a low people think you’re being outlandish accompanying that is of

27:47

course the demographics you know Israel very uniquely actually amongst wealthier

27:52

um countries as a fertility represent like three kids per woman yeah but amongst Ultra liberal Jews is about

27:59

1.5 and then amongst the ultra Orthodox it’s about six or seven that’s right and

28:04

so the future of Israel and its politics will be increasingly inclined towards

28:09

cons not just conservative politics Ultra Orthodox religiously inspired politics like you say the the politics

28:15

of the state of Judea and so I think purely empirical even if you’re a liberal Zionist who doesn’t want to hear

28:21

any of this I think you have to formulate a really powerful counterargument yeah to to contest what

28:27

you’re saying I mean because I don’t I don’t I simply don’t see the evidence to counter what you’re saying I see

28:32

overwhelming military superiority from the IDF you mean you can make the argument that yes the IDF can fight Leb

28:39

you know Lebanon and Iran and you can make that argument I I question how long they can do it for but you can make that argument but in terms of the long-term

28:46

contradictions of the of the Israeli National project that to me feels like the biggest vulnerability more than Iran

28:53

mhm I do agree I think the the existential threat for Israel comes from within not from without and uh by the

29:00

way this is not just the ultra Orthodox Jews or utox Jews it’s it’s a weird

29:05

Alliance that now uh sustains this vision of the state of Judea you have

29:11

the Orthodox Jews you not all of them as we know there’s a stream Kata who are

29:16

anti-zionist and are very loyal to the struggle for indep freedom in Palestine

29:21

we should uh uh mention them and and not include them in this uh group of people

29:27

and um you have the the settlers who are National Religious uh growing in numbers

29:36

700,000 in the last account and what is really depressing they are winning a new

29:44

constituency among the young Jews uh who are the Arab Jews or the mrai Jews whose

29:50

parents and grandparents came from Arab and Islamic and Muslim countries uh they are now the power bank

29:58

place of the state of Judea and U this is so disappointing because uh uh we all

30:06

I’m still hoping as as my friend avish schlame writes in his book three three

30:11

worlds that they will be the bridge for building a different kind of free

30:18

Palestine where Jews Muslims and Christians can live together but right now the mood of that particular

30:25

constituency is racist is anti-arab uh is more

30:30

Theocratic um and uh it’s they’re really uh digging their own hole in a way

30:37

because unlike the European Jews they don’t have Jew nationalities uh they might have jobs that some people might reignite outside

30:44

but basically they’re going to be stuck in the state of Judea if I’m right that the state of Judea is not going to

30:51

work um but um you know working and the anti is left for many

30:57

years inside Israel we we’ve never succeeded in finding Pathways into this

31:04

very important Cony maybe it’s our failure but that’s a fact we never

31:09

persuaded them to be part of our vision of a deionized Democratic Israel and

31:16

Palestine I don’t like to use the language of identity politics but it’s interesting that you could have a certain subsection of of Israel white

31:23

Europeans fundamentally people of white European Heritage um from primarily ashkanazi Jews having a kind of

31:30

privilege to escape absolutely that shift to a failed state which Mahi Jews

31:35

don’t again like I said I don’t like to use that kind of language but it seems like pretty good description of what it’s not a bad description and of course

31:43

that particular group of white white Israelis so to speak are the ones who

31:48

perpetrated the ethnic cleansing of 1948 are the ones who sent the settlers in

31:53

1967 to the West Bank in the Gaza Strip they’re the ones who build the foundation for the aparte state of

31:59

Israel uh but I’m and and and buil this image of Israel not being part of the

32:05

Arab world but part of Europe um it’s pity that the Jews who are part of the

32:11

Arab world are not seeing what I see clearly that their future and my future

32:18

is in Israel and Palestine that is reintegrated to the Arab world not excluded from the Arab world it’s part

32:24

of the Arab world’s problem but also part of the Arab world’s ution uh but I’m not saying there are no

32:31

individuals who share this Vision but most of them left anyway and uh they are not a power to reckon with unfortunately

32:38

yeah so these these elections in 2006 what happens because there there is

32:45

this this brief moment where you have the possibility of a political leadership inside Israel which embarks

32:51

on a very different political trory trajectory explain that to me because most people just think look this is a straight line all the way from you know

32:58

the mid 1940s even earlier back 1923 maybe maybe the alall Declaration maybe 1918 1919 but it does feel like there

33:05

were missed opportunities so yeah 20 years ago where were where were things at 20 years ago we had um people who

33:14

used to be part of the liud party uh becoming great believer in the two-state

33:19

solution like El dulmer who was the the Prime Minister um and um finding counterparts

33:27

to to talk with on on the Palestinian Authority side including Abu Mazen and

33:32

so on uh I doubtful by the way even if they had succeeded were the kind of

33:38

solution that they were working out a a Palestinian bant toan plus uh next to in

33:45

Israel would have worked for a long period if it would not be would not have

33:51

been developed into something better but at least it was worth a try it didn’t uh succeed for two reasons

33:59

one that ol himself got uh embroiled in corruption um uh trial and he was sent

34:07

to Jail uh so he spent his time in jail so his old political power base was gone

34:13

and secondly it was too late that the most of the Israeli Jewish electorate

34:18

but not most but a very important part of the Israeli Jewish electorate already moved to the right

34:25

already accepted that the only two options and not three options namely either a democracy or an ethnic racist

34:33

State and in larger numbers already by 2006 they preferred the racist state to

34:39

the Democracy as an assured way of survival uh why why why what triggered that

34:47

collective decision because uh rightly so uh you know there’s something

34:54

Vladimir jabotinski warned the left already in the early

34:59

1920s if you remember in in in his famous uh uh Manifesto the Iron Wall he

35:06

says the problem with the labor Zionist movement is that it thinks that the Palestinians are stupid and they can try

35:15

to cheat them by saying oh we want peace uh we want to live with you where where

35:20

actually like him they don’t want to do that genuinely he said he said it’s much

35:28

better to be honest and say to the Palestinians either you or or we uh and

35:34

and and he said what was wrong with labor Zionism that labor Zionism thought that way but was not honest with the

35:42

Palestinians and that he said would bring much more trouble in the future and I’m I’m the last person to to be

35:49

disciple of jabotinski but I think there was something in it and I think that’s what the Israeli electorate felt they

35:55

felt like the whole whole idea of of the way Israel explains a two-state solution

36:02

the whole idea of Zionism which is an ethnic racist ideology to claim that it

36:09

can have a liberal version a socialist version was a deception namely you first

36:15

of all deceive yourself and then you try to deceive others and uh it doesn’t work

36:22

on the ground it doesn’t work uh you can never really offer the Palestinians

36:27

anything that they could even the feeble Palestinian leadership could really live with and we saw it in Oslo and after

36:35

Oslo and you are not benefiting in the International

36:41

Community because yes the governments are supporting you but you are losing the support of the Civil societies

36:47

because they can see through that kind of oxymoron of a liberal Zionism which they translate

36:54

into liberal colonialism uh Progressive eth cleansing and so on H so maybe

37:02

rightly so I hope they’re wrong Health Israeli kind of not healthy but uh a

37:09

logic if you want Israeli Jewish electorate says governments do not work

37:14

upon moral principles so they will support us whether we are a democracy or

37:20

not democracy if we serve American imperialism if we serve capitalism if we

37:26

serve European interests because they’re looking around I mean the the great allies of the West in

37:33

the global South are not necessarily democracies um so why play the game I

37:39

mean what’s what’s the benefit of playing that game they would call it the game so we’d rather be United in our

37:47

right not to be a democracy to be a Jewish State a racist State and hope that we have enough Alliance who who

37:54

prefer it because they are islamophobic because they understand how primitive or

37:59

bad the Arabs or the Palestinians are that’s the kind of process that I

38:04

think totally expunged liberal Zionism out of the political game in Israel it

38:11

doesn’t exist today this is 20 years ago that yeah it started 20 years ago they they they totally disappeared it’s in

38:18

fact in in the next few elections they didn’t pass the qu for becoming members

38:23

of parliament even those who Define themselves as a level liberal Zionism uh now look what they’re trying

38:32

to do in order to survive in the 2026 election they have put as at the head of

38:38

the liberal Zionist uh new kind of party that they are building the previous

38:45

Deputy Chief of the general staff a general a general who was part of the

38:52

destruction of Gaza uh between 2007 to 20 uh uh 20 23 uh he’s now the great

38:59

hope of the Israeli left it is incredible if you think about it you

39:05

know uh who of course supports military action in South Lebanon and so on uh but

39:11

pays lip service to the idea of a two State solution uh according to the Israeli and

39:16

American version so you said that um liberal Zionism as a as a Project’s dying you write in the book that is

39:23

Israel doesn’t have a left it doesn’t exist doesn’t when was the death nail for that in terms of you know not having

39:29

a left of any meaningful sort of caliber I think the last nail in that coffin was uh driven

39:37

in 2001 when Ariel Chiron was uh elected he very cleverly usurped the position of the

39:45

left he talked about the need eventually to withdraw from

39:50

razza uh appeared as uh someone who’s willing to negotiate a two-state

39:56

solution and actually prove to the left that what

40:02

they believe in someone who was the epitome of right-wing politics in Israel

40:08

can also agree to for the same reasons a it’s never going to happen be it sounds

40:14

very good to those people in the west who support Israel and want to hear the

40:19

right music but don’t care about the lyrics and uh that you can

40:25

count I’m talking as if I’m I’m I’m representing them and you can count on

40:30

the Palestinians to reject it anyway uh and therefore you they would be blame

40:36

for the failure uh of what happened and the moment you know that he took over

40:42

the the project of liberal Zionism in a way and aard who who followed him after

40:47

he got the stroke killed that option altogether what he was exposed as was a kind of a

40:56

propaganda tactics rather than a genuine ideological alternative to

41:03

Zionism uh and maybe it never was maybe it never was but the lie was only

41:08

exposed in 2000 you you mentioned as well the ow Accords a few moments ago

41:13

and it’s something that we repeatedly hear that um Hamas Hezbollah PLO fata

41:19

whoever although it’s often not ACC actually accurate they’re not interested in a two-state solution the PLO has

41:26

actually committed to a two they’ve anounced violence forcades um is Israel interested in the two State

41:34

solution I mean it obviously it sort of gives a lip service but when there have been opportunities like at Oslo you

41:40

correct me if I’m wrong but the Israeli delegations quite open and saying look if we agree to this there’s nothing

41:46

after this which implicitly means there is no state of Palestine and to anybody

41:53

who just has a cursory examination of History it seems quite obvious that Israel has 0% interest in a two-state

42:00

solution I mean you seem to be saying that that that that is you know finally the case in in the early 21st century

42:07

but even with Oslo in a way paradoxically even though everybody talks about as this wonderful moment

42:13

that that does seem to be the moment doesn’t it where where actually we can definitively

42:19

say Israel is not interested in a two-state solution I think we can go even uh to an earlier period you know

42:26

government uh every now and then can take a strategic decision and then consecutive

42:33

governments Follow by inertia the strategy they very rarely you they

42:42

reconsider the strategy uh you you need a fundamental event to to uh Pro convince

42:50

politici that they should rock the boat to such an extent that they should change you know the previous government

42:57

Alliance and the Strategic decision that is important here is goes back to June 1967 in June 1967 Israel had the 13th

43:06

government of Israel which was the most consensual government Israel ever had until then and since then every

43:13

political party including the non-zionist Orthodox parties were represented in this government the unity

43:20

government and it took very important decisions after the occupation of the West Bank in the Gaza Strip and not one

43:28

Israeli Prime Minister or government deviated until today from the decisions

43:33

that they have taken the first one was that Israel couldnot exist without controlling the West Bank and the Gaza

43:40

strep they had endless debate does it mean that you needed direct uh uh rule

43:45

or indirect rule but uh it was agreed that Israel would never allow any other

43:52

force to be present in the West Bank and the Gaza stream you could be in the service of Israel it could be the

43:59

jordanians it could be the PLO it could be even the Hamas as we have seen in the last years before 2023 that Israel

44:07

wrongly thought that Hamas was serving its own interests as well um but uh it’s

44:14

still Israel it is still part of Israel the second decision was that they cannot repeat what they have done in 1948

44:21

namely they cannot get rid of the Palestinian population in massive numbers in a West Bank in the Gaza Strip

44:28

and the third decision that stems from it was that if Israel wants it to be part of Israel uh and does not want

44:36

cannot doesn’t want it’s not true cannot expel massively the population then uh

44:43

it should also be aware that it will never grant them civil rights and and human rights or include them in Israeli

44:50

state so for a while it worked you know it kind of worked uh Oso was supposed to

44:56

give an international stamp to that idea and to call it a peace and to call to

45:02

call the Palestinian enclaves estate and it didn’t work because of

45:07

their resistance uh and because of the resistance also of the Israeli right that didn’t want it uh and now you have

45:14

these Messianic new Zionist ministers who believe that there’s a new

45:19

opportunity for doing in Gaza something even better that is a combination of

45:25

genocide and ethnic cleansing and they’re still hoping that they can do that so so I think that this m there

45:33

was never this moment of truth you know where there was a genuine chance from an

45:38

Israeli perspective to allow for a genuine two-state solution to to to

45:44

arise I don’t think so I don’t think so I I’m not saying that individuals might have not wanted it but the political

45:52

Powers the best they could offer was really in this respect I agree with everyone who uses the ban toan in aart

45:59

at South Africa as a model the best Israel could offer the Palestinian was ban to this is not the minimum even

46:06

feeble Palestinian leadership could have accepted that is so well put um where

46:13

this book is really strong I should say actually is on that period really between the foundation of the state of

46:19

Israel and I think 73 there’s loads of stuff which you know it’s it’s not the

46:25

distant pass but it’s sufficiently long ago that actually there’s details that people aren’t necessarily aware of and

46:31

for people who are watching or listening to this who don’t who don’t know the history um for a long time the West Bank

46:37

was being administered by Jordan or or trans Jordan I want to ask you a question going back really to the the

46:43

matter of this book what’s been the role historically of Jordan in assisting the

46:48

state of Israel um at that point in terms of um

46:54

ethnically cleansing people or up to that point but even today you know Jordan for instance his Air Force was

46:59

involved in the interception of Iranian projectiles the first time

47:05

along with the US Air Force the British Air Force I think the French Air Force too so Jordan clearly occupies this very

47:10

specific role in the Arab world and for a long time as well could you explain that yes I’m you I’m afraid you have to

47:18

go back to history just for for a moment to understand that uh the hashimites

47:25

which was a big clim arrived in near historical Palestine

47:31

after the Zionist not before the zionists that’s important to remember so they are also kind of visitors they’re

47:38

not settler Colonial project but they are uh people who came from the Arabian

47:43

Peninsula because they were driven out by the Saudis in the 19 early 1920s and

47:50

that’s how they found themselves in Jordan and created an alliance with the

47:55

local tribes who always lived uh in Jordan and and the Christian Community that was there for centuries and um the

48:04

eastern part of Jordan to the hashemite rulers when they arrived in 1920s did

48:10

not seem uh enough for having a viable State and they always wanted to have at

48:16

least part of Palestine with its fertile lands its educated population in order

48:22

to give more content for the idea of state A people today don’t understand

48:28

that period where you could really dream that you building from scratch a state

48:34

because it wasn’t a state there before right and um for that purpose uh King

48:40

abdalah was the great grandson great grandfather of the present King abdalah had a tested alliance with the Zionist

48:46

movement had similar kind of interest there that as long as abdalah would be

48:52

part of an Arab world that is willing to tolerate the idea of a Jewish State the Jewish state will help him to solid

48:59

solidify a new state in trans Jordan that will become Jordan and this is why

49:06

during the 48 War when Jordan could have played a much more important and

49:11

devastating role as far as Israel is concerned because it had British offices and good equipment compared to other

49:17

Arab armies was very limited in its intervention and was rewarded with the

49:22

West Bank so the West Bank from 48 to 67 is something that Israel gave from

49:28

Jordan it became Jordan and uh when Israel occupied the

49:34

West Bank in ‘ 67 those architects of the occupation of

49:39

the West Bank were part of the same Israeli leadership that had these tradition traditional relationship with

49:45

the hashemites in Jordan so the first idea of these people was that maybe they

49:51

can have some sort of collaboration ruling the West Bank with Jordan that would serve the Israeli interest namely

49:58

that Israel that the Jordan River would be the border of Israel but Jordan would

50:03

help to control the Palestinian population in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for a while it worked until the

50:11

first intifa in 1987 uh and what we in in in international politics it was called the

50:17

Jordanian option namely in Israeli agreement that will gradually give

50:23

Jordan more and more say in the West Bank and the Gaza strip in return for bilateral peace but Israel in 77 was

50:32

transformed when the leud took power and even that game of U allowing the

50:37

jordanians to think that they might go back to the West Bank was gone because the could had even in the leud uh you

50:46

know Charter even trans Jordan is part of of the land of Israel so for

50:52

them that’s a great concession to allow the hashimites to be east of the river uh Jordan of course they would have

50:58

never let them to be part of the West and maybe you remember I don’t know how if you were there yet uh in 1988 the

51:05

famous speech by King Hussein crying really having genuine tears when he

51:11

declared that he seeds any connection to the West Bank giving up the West Bank

51:17

altogether um so um the jordanians played a role in the past that helped

51:24

the Israelis to take over Palestine on the other hand I can see a Jordanian

51:29

claim that they saved Palestinians as well and sometimes these contradictory

51:36

realities are correct as well namely Palestinians who lived in the West Bank were not expelled that is true and

51:44

Palestinians in Jordan did receive Palestinian refugees and unlike other Arab countries did offer them

51:51

citizenship uh so it’s a complex relationship between Jordan uh uh and

51:56

PLO we have the September 1970 Massacre of PLO P TR Soldiers by the the janian

52:05

regime but then you have the early 1980s great collaboration between the PLO and

52:10

King Hussein in trying to present a joint position uh for a pales eventually

52:16

for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the G stre it’s a complex relationship has to do with the

52:22

history uh and had to do with the fact that there was a lot of uh uh good

52:27

relationship in the past but this is now gone why do the jordanians are still

52:33

providing that kind of military aid that you mentioned I think has less to do

52:38

with Zionism in Israel it has to do with the fear that the pro Western monarchies

52:45

in the Arab world have from Iran uh I don’t think it’s connected to Israel I think it’s really connected to their

52:52

sense of vulnerability in the face of political Islamic movements in their own countries

52:59

uh that are gaining power also because of Palestine also

53:05

because of Palestine so it is connected in a way uh but I think that’s where we are today yeah so concerns about the

53:12

export of revolutionary Islam which has been on it’s been on the agenda since 1979 exactly exactly exactly the only

53:21

the only Kingdom that seems to be able to deal with it is Qatar by navigating

53:27

quite cleverly one should say with good relationship with political Islamic groups on the one hand and yet regarded

53:34

by the West as an asset as well that’s unique that’s very unique how they succeeded in having this position

53:42

because if you look at Abu zabi uh and and Dubai and the the Emirates

53:48

altogether uh they were unable to uh have this kind of image in

53:54

the Arab world of course Al jazer also contributed to this sense that qar is

53:59

embracing all the political options and and and accepting them as legitimate on

54:05

the hashimite point because again people might not be familiar with this stuff um who are watching and listening and I think this is really interesting you

54:11

know people will have watched Lawrence fbia with King fisel right so is is he

54:16

the great great grandfather of the present King Abdullah no it starts it’s a bit like Dynasty you have you have

54:23

Sharif Hussein who is the great found of the of the of the dynasty who is the

54:30

responsible for the sacredness of Mecca and Medina in the last days of the Ottoman Empire with the help of Lawrence

54:36

of Arabia he signs an alliance with Britain and uh decides to fight

54:42

alongside the British against the against the uh uh the Turks and and the

54:47

Germans and the austr hungarians right now in return he was promised by Lawrence in Arabia and other British

54:53

officials that in return most of the the provinces in the Arab world in the eastern part of the Arab world that were

55:00

part of the Ottoman Empire would become kingdoms uh for his sons and uh two two sons were

55:07

particularly important the Amir fisel and Amir abdalah was the great grandson of King abdala toel now fisel was

55:15

supposed to be the king of Syria and uh for a while La of Arabia

55:20

brought him to Damascus and he created the greatest Syria Kingdom between 1918 and 1920

55:26

when the British government decided that its alliance with France is more important than its alliance with the hashemites and allowed the French in

55:33

1920 to occupy Syria and Lebanon FAL was

55:39

compensated by having the kingdom of Iraq in 1920 but the kingdom of Iraq was

55:44

promised to abdalah and what abdalah did when the hashemites lost control of

55:49

Mecca and Medina he moved with uh his family and tribes men from Mecca on

55:55

Medina all the way supposedly to Damascus to fight the French he never meant to do that and he stopped in a

56:02

small cirian village called Aman and waited to see what the British would do

56:08

and uh eventually Churchill was the Secretary of States for colonies Winston Church suggested that instead of the

56:15

British original idea the Jordan would be part of Palestine uh he decided to give that

56:21

part of Palestine as he saw it which were actually part of Syria in the ottoman world uh for a kingdom for the

56:30

hashemites what is interesting that if one can I I I saw the real I can’t find it again when the this tribe of

56:38

hashemites went on to amand they stopped in Jericho and it was an American Hollywood filmmaker who made the film of

56:46

Joshua and he used that Army as uh what you call them extras in in the film wow in the

56:54

film sort of uh hansman yeah yeah yeah um before they they went to to Aman

57:01

which is not far away from there this is so important I think for younger people particularly in Britain obviously

57:07

everybody but I obviously today Britain is you know by PPP like barely a top 10

57:13

global economy 68 million people it’s a mid-ranking power but 100 years ago it

57:19

was just arbitrarily making up countries to play off this brother against that brother and it’s not just you know it’s

57:24

not just that part of the Arab world if you look at the whole that whole North coast of the Arabian Peninsula all these

57:30

fake countries basically to guarantee as I understand it Maritime security

57:35

between West Asia and and the Indian Ocean and they wanted to ensure they had client states to stop the French

57:41

potentially going to India and I just think you know we really do live in the we live in the shadows and the aftermath

57:47

of of European imperialism and it’s it’s one thing to say it but then it’s another thing when you’re looking on

57:53

Instagram seeing all these influences in the UAE absolutely these places literally exist because Britain wanted

57:58

to secure Maritime routes to India and uh and that’s why politics is the way it

58:04

is and it’s why we should be thinking and talking about colonialism and imperialism you know with real intensity

58:09

because it really matters it’s still here it is still here and some of the structure that the colonialist empires

58:16

Britain and France built after the first world war are collapsing the whole structure that was

58:23

built after the first world war that created Lebanon Syria Jordan Palestine

58:28

and Iraq uh is not uh uh is not in in a very good shape in its history and uh uh

58:37

it was an imposition of a nation state European idea of what we call the wasan

58:42

nation state was a European idea what the nation state would look like and it was imposed on on the world that lived

58:50

in a different way it was a mosaic of of sects and ethnocultural groups that knew

58:59

how to Live and Let Live within an Islamic civilization within an Islamic

59:05

world uh but one that uh got better and better in terms of the relationship and

59:12

the ability to work together for a better future and that was stopped by the colonial imperialist intervention

59:19

because they use these group identities to pit one group against the other the classical divide and Rule idea of

59:27

colonialism uh and then the nation state was sometimes granted to one group as a

59:32

reward for being an ally of the colonial Empire at the expense of the other groups which increased the alienation if

59:40

think about Lebanon the French decided of course that Lebanese n nationalism

59:45

goes together with maronites and and Christianity but they were not the the

59:50

majority there was little in the dish of Lebanese nationalism that was connected to Islam and arabism

59:56

and and you see the result and think about Palestine there’s very little in the idea of a nation state in Palestine

1:00:03

that is connected to Palestinians uh and and the the alawites in Syria and this is all colonialist

1:00:11

structures that were sustained by false dictatorship authoritarian regimes but

1:00:18

they were challenged in the Arab Spring for the first time seriously and I’m not sure that we are beyond the challenges

1:00:26

in in the future and US Empire as well I mean and if us if us Empire if it can no

1:00:31

longer project power in West Asia for a bunch of reasons right because other parts of the world simply matter more as

1:00:36

we move away from fossil fuels obviously Asia Pacific’s going to matter a hell of a lot um then yeah we’re looking at

1:00:44

something really different here’s a question if you it’s a bit of a curveball so you said there was a mosaic of of of sort of political and

1:00:50

institutional types that precede these nation states I mean that’s just that’s just empirically true

1:00:56

what comes what comes next then because of course you have pan arabism tried in the post-war era but pan arabism isn’t

1:01:03

what you just described a moment ago pan arabism is very much Arab speaking People’s First it’s it’s it’s a it’s a

1:01:10

super nationalist project but it’s still effectively a kind of nationalist cultural nationalist project

1:01:17

so what’s the future for these places if if that westfalian state system is no longer working for West Asia what do you

1:01:24

see as a as a superior alternative for the for the medium term Yeah medium and

1:01:30

even long term the alternative is to to go back to political structures that are

1:01:35

very loose and that are enable the the recreation of this Live and Let Live

1:01:43

Mosaic where uh uh Collective identities are respected but they are quite

1:01:49

flexible as they used to be uh the boundaries can be quite porous people

1:01:54

can move from that was the reality in the past you could move from one Collective identity to the other I

1:02:01

suppose it would have to be adapted to the 21st century one of the important groups would be the group without group

1:02:08

you know without group identity this is something that wasn’t there at the maybe in small cosmopolitical pockets in the

1:02:15

big cities but in general that might be a far more important phenomenon in the future but it is possible to go back to

1:02:24

the heritage of the pre-colonial ottoman period with all in a very careful way

1:02:30

realizing not romanticizing it realizing also its negative aspects but to look at

1:02:36

the basic structure that the Ottoman Empire allowed before the rise of The Young Turks in particular uh and and to

1:02:43

say this is the model that inspires our future model not the European model of

1:02:50

of nation state and pan arabism was not built on that it was also kind of copy

1:02:56

of a European Western model no it’s something else it is something else that

1:03:01

uh uh can be built either in the great Assyria area first which is another

1:03:07

notion that uh was very popular during the late ottoman period uh and I think

1:03:13

that this is the the political structure that would eventually evolve the only question is if it evolves through

1:03:19

violence and War it perpetuates kind of intercommunal intercommunal stries and

1:03:26

so on but if it is a consensual project uh I can give you an example I’m sure

1:03:32

that the Future model in Syria if you take out the Bashar Assad click and you

1:03:40

allow alites Kurds Drews uh uh and so many groups you have

1:03:47

in Syria to rebuild a mosaic state where the state does not interfere in the

1:03:54

identities of people that it has a much better chance of being transformed with less violence and

1:04:01

it’s without romanticizing it and without uh uh um belittling the teasing

1:04:07

problem it would have it can function much better much much better than the

1:04:13

present political setup and I think Palestine is an important Beacon here an important sample because in Palestine in

1:04:20

particular the people forget it in Palestine in particular Jews Muslim and Christians coexisted peacefully until

1:04:28

the arrival of Zionism Jews saw themselves as Arabs they didn’t see

1:04:35

themselves as Europeans uh and uh there’s a need to to

1:04:40

find a way of recreating it without being romantic about it namely or

1:04:45

nostalgic by saying of course it has to be adapted to the realities of the world

1:04:50

but the principles are important see I agree with all of that it’s very alluring but ultimately sovereignty

1:04:57

across all the territories you just mentioned was fundamentally concentrated with the Ottoman Empire

1:05:04

yeah and it’s something I’ve thought about a lot um because obviously in the 21st century Empire has a quite rightly

1:05:11

has um has a very poor reputation but if you look at for instance I mean I I know the West failan system generally says we

1:05:18

have nation states in Europe after 1648 but obviously there is the hapsburg Empire the austr Hungarian Empire which

1:05:24

is very much this transnational multi-ethnic um entity which is not you know a normal nation

1:05:31

state and again we’re still living in the slipstream of of that collapsing when you read Stephan swag talk about

1:05:38

you know the Vienna of of before the first world war it sounds like quite a nice place yeah you know an Austrian Jew

1:05:45

can have a rather nice life however it’s not a democracy and it’s not necessarily the

1:05:51

kind of political type that people would generally make appeals to now but you

1:05:56

look at it um you look at what’s happened to Southeast Europe Central

1:06:01

Europe in the century since it collapsed you know the jury’s out frankly I mean

1:06:07

maybe not today but you know you look at the intervening 100 years you look at um you look at obviously the second world

1:06:12

war in particular you look at just ethnic cleansing particularly most recently in the Balkans in the 1990s the

1:06:19

jury is very much still out and I think that’s certainly true with West Asia but that question of sovereignty

1:06:25

really remains key I suppose in Europe it’s not been solved because obviously it has its critics but you’ve got the

1:06:31

European Union which is part of the answer to what post nation state sovereignty might look like what’s

1:06:38

really interesting for me is that um you look at somewhere like Iran to talk about another Empire you know safid Iran

1:06:46

and I think this is really lost on lots of um particularly white nationalists or Ultra nationalists in Europe they say

1:06:53

well look Iran is expelling millions of afghans see right they’re just like us

1:06:58

they’re doing it why can’t we expel people like you Aaron you know Iran’s expelling people that aren’t like them

1:07:04

what’s fascinating is actually no they’re expelling Persian speakers they’re expelling people who speak the

1:07:11

same language who are really Persians Iran comes from the word Aran Ariana Ariana historically is where Afghanistan

1:07:18

was and at the same time you have a third of Iran’s population speaks Turkish right so actually it’s the

1:07:23

complete opposite of what you’re saying they have very large minorities which speak Turkish or Arabic and they’re

1:07:29

getting rid of the people who speak the same language as them Iran for most the last thousand years was actually ruled

1:07:34

by Turkish speakers yeah it’s it’s ruling dynasties were Turkish speaking and again I I don’t want to defend

1:07:40

Empires you know I don’t want to defend you know the Sapp Empire we shouldn’t we shouldn’t defend Empires but we should

1:07:48

think about a region that has probably some more

1:07:56

solid nation states like the Iranians and the Turks I cannot see turkey and

1:08:02

Iran as s disintegrating quickly Regional Powers instead of international

1:08:08

powers and a a certain political structure which represents the various

1:08:15

groups that we were talking about call it a federation Confederation call it

1:08:21

the United States of of the mashra I don’t know I mean it it it burs further

1:08:28

thinking and exploration I’m talking about the orientation of of where to look for a

1:08:34

solution you know there is this Jewish uh saying that uh people tend to look

1:08:39

for the key that they have lost where there is light but not where they lost the key we we we are in the light but we

1:08:47

are not looking for the key the key is there that doesn’t mean that this is an easy search it doesn’t mean that uh uh

1:08:54

one doesn’t have to to explore it further but I think that this is we both

1:08:59

in Palestine and in the Eastern Mediterranean we wasted Decades of

1:09:05

looking for Solutions based on European Western models that are not working

1:09:10

instead of working on the heritage of that area as an inspiration for future

1:09:16

Solutions and that I think is is a healthy way forward uh and uh I I I do I

1:09:23

I you know I I I spoke in webinars lately I can’t do it physically to people in Iraq in Syria in

1:09:31

Lebanon in Egypt even to a group in Yemen and Saudi Arabia and not to

1:09:37

mention North Africa to where I speak quite a lot the young people who are

1:09:42

engaged with me uh are thinking in similar ways it’s it’s not my own idea I

1:09:48

don’t I’m not kind of commodifying here my own you know brainstorming it’s it’s

1:09:53

something that is a convers for many many people because the nation

1:09:59

state has disappointed them has not delivered a good life better life and so

1:10:06

on and uh and this is something that Europe sometimes misunderstanding maybe

1:10:12

Europe should because it’s going to happen in Europe as well people are you know are not just are not just concerned

1:10:19

about individual rights Collective rights are still important but they are not imported in

1:10:26

as a sacred issue but as a comfort zone as a safe space as as as an outlet uh

1:10:35

Solas and so on and something in this process of modernization and

1:10:40

imperialism turned a very positive human Association into something that is

1:10:47

negative to progress stability especially when you arm the groups of

1:10:52

course but but the essential idea I I I know it in Palestine I I lived there 70

1:10:58

years now I know in Palestine the group identity saves people gives them a a

1:11:05

reference group life is not easy anywhere neither in West

1:11:10

Asia uh and the reference group is important you know the left taught us

1:11:17

that the reference group is socioeconomic thing the class I tend to differ so always class

1:11:25

issue so you say the nation as well not the nation but the group the group identity uh it could be an ethnocultural

1:11:33

identity it could be a religious one uh it it I’m I’m not questioning the class

1:11:39

issue is very important for me I’m a leftist but I think the left Ted to

1:11:44

overlook uh the importance of the collective identity for people and that’s where the Israeli Jews would have

1:11:50

to fit in if they want to stay they would have to become an ethnocultural

1:11:56

group in West Asia like all the other ethnocultural group they cannot be a

1:12:01

nation state because that doesn’t the area doesn’t accept it it doesn’t work

1:12:08

internally and they could renew the life of Jews as they lived before 48 in of

1:12:15

course in a much better condition because we are in the 21st century and we are much more aware of Human Rights

1:12:20

and civil rights than the Ottomans were we would don’t want to idealize their the record of Human Rights um but but

1:12:28

that that’s the structure that I can see in the future final question and this is a really Illuminating conversation you

1:12:34

know um we we we presume that the things that we’ve grown up around are the only way

1:12:40

that humans can constitute themselves but obviously like you say the nation state is a very recent invention I mean just to offer one more example I think

1:12:46

it was in 1920 you have what is now Armenia aaban and Georgia all declare their

1:12:53

independence in the same City yeah that’s right insane and they all said

1:12:59

this is this is our capital and at the time I think I might be getting this wrong but the broad point is correct so

1:13:05

yavan which is today the capital of Armenia I think was primarily an azeri City yeah tibl which is now in Georgia

1:13:13

TI I think it was historically called I think that was primarily an Armenian City so you to have all these population

1:13:18

transfers just so these three little countries can exist and even today 100 years later you know Georgia’s dispute

1:13:25

with Russia is a little bit different but Armenia aaban is very much a case of of these conflicts not really being

1:13:32

played out I suppose somebody watching this would say um you know Elan very

1:13:37

clever man very well read but he’s missing a fundamental reality which is that since the Holocaust Israel has been

1:13:44

a guarantor of the safety of millions of Jews um who’ve who fled persecution from

1:13:49

other parts of the world as well not just Europe and if you were to have this mosaic he talks about in that part of

1:13:56

the world where Israeli Jews today’s Israeli Jews are just one ethnopolitical

1:14:01

group among many that security would be lost and we would just see something like the shower all over again thousands

1:14:08

of years of persecution um have not ended but obviously have substantively changed

1:14:14

since the formation of the state of Israel we cannot ever allow that to happen that that becomes very quickly very existential conversation doesn’t it

1:14:22

how would you respond to that well first of all objectively the place where Jews are not

1:14:30

safe right now is Israel in fact in the last uh

1:14:37

76 years since the Inception of the state of Israel the only place where

1:14:42

Jews were killed in large numbers was Israel so if for me uh life the

1:14:49

guarantee for life is one of the most important uh prove uh for

1:14:56

an existential uh issues um so Jews are particularly under danger because they

1:15:02

are Jews in Israel not anywhere else in the world I’m not saying that there is no anti-Semitism and so on secondly the

1:15:11

Israeli state and its policies towards the Palestinians and this can be proved

1:15:16

had increased anti-Semitism did not decrease anti-Semitism the insistence of

1:15:22

Israel that Zionism Judaism are the same allowed a lot of anti-semites to

1:15:28

say well what Israel is doing is Jewish so even if you are a Jew in London who has nothing to do with Israel you are a

1:15:36

Zionist by default because you are a Jew um and and therefore if people feel

1:15:43

either knowingly or unknowingly that uh whatever Israel is does uh irritates

1:15:49

them outrages them creates animosity to to the Jewish State and the Jewish State

1:15:55

claims Judaism and the Jewish state is the same you can understand why there’s

1:16:00

such a confusion and we’ve seen it last year in Britain I myself am consultant to some of these cases where citizens

1:16:08

here were talking about Jews in a way that yes could be interpreted as anti-semitic but I can show the court

1:16:15

that what they meant is the Israeli soldiers in Gaza and then the court

1:16:21

would say but why didn’t they call them the Israeli soldiers in Gaza and I would say because Israel cus them the Jews in

1:16:27

Gaza as well so you can’t blame the people you can of course you have to check whether this is racism toward Jews

1:16:33

because they are Jews or this is anger about an army that is genociding people

1:16:38

it’s not the same this is not a racist position to be angry at such a position

1:16:44

so the whole issue of a Jewish State the whole Zionist project that was meant to

1:16:50

solve anti-Semitism has failed to do so on two accounts it is has not become a

1:16:55

safe place for the Jews and it has increased anti-Semitism instead of

1:17:01

decreasing it on the other hand it is very clear that one of the biggest

1:17:06

mistake of Zionism and the fight against anti-Semitism to my mind and I will end

1:17:12

up with a conversation I had with some German officials which will interest you um is the fact

1:17:19

that there was an attempt to create a hierarchy of racism to say there is

1:17:25

racism and there is anti-Semitism if you notice this is a a dominant uh uh

1:17:30

discourse there’s racism and anti-Semitism it’s not the same anti-Semitism is worse than racism no it

1:17:37

is not and if you fight successfully racism you fight successfully

1:17:43

anti-Semitism but if you want to separate the Fight Against Racism from the fight against anti-Semitism you’re

1:17:50

going to fail German official explained to me when I was in Berlin a week ago

1:17:55

that the reason that Germany has special laws about anti-Semitism and special laws about racism is that anti-Semitism

1:18:03

is the worst kind of racism because it wants to see the extermination of the Jews so I said to him I’m sorry you’re

1:18:10

talking about the Nazis which I hope are not uh uh prevalent anymore in Germany

1:18:16

this is a Nazi definition of racism I said to him this is not an objective definition of racism I said to him any

1:18:24

form of racism is from I don’t want them as neighbors to I want them dead it

1:18:31

doesn’t matter whe the racis whoever is the object of racism there is uh you

1:18:38

know there is a kind of spectrum of what you wish for those you don’t like because of your racism but Germans

1:18:45

really believe in it they really definition of antisemitism necessarily depends on the idea of extermination

1:18:51

absolutely and that’s why uh a river to the Sea can get you into jail in Germany that makes I mean it’s it’s obviously

1:18:58

mad but it’s Lal mad but it makes makes sense exactly but the fact that Germany sells itself as the world expert on

1:19:03

anti-Semitism is ridiculous they know they know nothing about it but uh uh it

1:19:09

is very important to to explain to people that uh um the reason

1:19:15

anti-Semitism is not resolved by a Jewish state in the Arab world is first

1:19:20

of all because it is done at the expense of the Palestinians so it could never have worked well and secondly because you need to be part

1:19:28

of a global uh struggle Against Racism wherever it is it’s like the essence of

1:19:34

Politics the more the politics will be based on moral values reflecting of real

1:19:41

and genuine people’s concern the better it is for Palestine and the worse it is for Israel uh Israel benefits from a

1:19:50

cynical uh political system with politicians who are much more concerned about the future and see the electorate

1:19:57

as a base not as a group of people whose problem they were elected to solve this benefits a state like Israel not only

1:20:04

Israel Palestinians with their lack of power depend on politics that derive

1:20:11

from moral values uh from senses of justice and Injustice all things that my

1:20:17

colleagues in the department of political science and universities of Britain tell the students to forget

1:20:22

about if they want to enter Poli itics which is very sad uh but I do think that

1:20:28

there’s a younger generation there we saw it in the struggle against global warming they do believe that Justice

1:20:34

morality are part of life and not just utopian and idealistic stupid uh

1:20:39

dimensions of politics and and I think that that is something that will help Palestine but to my mind will also help

1:20:47

struggle against anti-Semitism Elan we’ll leave it there great conversation thank you and once

1:20:53

again your new book it’s out just before Christmas I think I was saying earlier on it makes a a great gift for somebody

1:21:00

who maybe cares a lot about what’s going on in Gaza they’ve maybe shared content on social media this is a primer

1:21:06

explaining so much and it’s of such value like all of your work I should say thank you thanks again for very much

1:21:12

thank you [Music]

oooooo

UN special rapporteur on the Palestinian Territories holds news conference

(https://www.youtube.com/live/KlbFSpNASO4)

Francesca Albanese, the United Nations special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, holds a news conference on Parliament Hill in Ottawa to highlight the release of two recent reports and to call on the Canadian government to revise its policies. (November 5, 2024)

Transkripzioa:

0:11

hello everyone uh I think you know who I am

0:16

I’m glad to be in Canada invited here by a coalition of diverse groups including

0:23

Palestinian Jewish Muslim group of Faith academics students and Community groups

0:30

in a year in which I was turned into a reluctant chronicler of genocide I feel

0:37

compelled to recognize and acknowledge the victims of all genocides past and present and in this spirit I feel

0:43

compelled to pay tribute to the traditional custodians of the land on

0:49

which we meet today the unceded land of the Anish naab aong Nation as a visitor

0:55

to this country and as someone who was born and raised on a continent from which col iism and its most Insidious

1:02

form settler colonialism originated as a way to subjugate and

1:07

depredate the natives I recognize the profound injustices endured by the indigenous people in this country and in

1:15

other places around the world like in Palestine it is not lost on me that

1:21

despite the urgency of the current moment with a few important exceptions

1:27

the political leadership in this country chose to either not meets me or withdraw invitations to meet me meanwhile it is

1:34

with such a honor that I know that the original custodians of this land are

1:40

making plans to fly from all over the country across the country to meet with

1:45

me and discuss what is happening in Palestine and it is also the young

1:51

people as well as a fair number from among my peers who have fought to have

1:58

me speak and packed out venues it would seem my words my candid

2:05

candid readings of facts international law and Justice and my insistence on

2:11

speaking honestly about the genocides that is unfolding in Gaza and the serious risk that it spreads throughout

2:19

the region scare the political class and those who hold power including Eon

2:24

economic and financial power which we know from Edward S to grami the holding

2:31

power also determines cultural hegemony it is clear to me that the

2:38

Canadian people want more clarity integrity and concrete action from their

2:43

government on the atrocities we all see unfolding in Palestine in Gaza we are forced to watch

2:50

as Israel’s constant bombing sniper and artillery fire continues to spare no one

2:56

journalist doctors students Scholars nurses persons with disability people

3:01

seeking food and safety humanitarian workers including un staff including in

3:08

the so-called humanitarian zones conservative figures indicate that the Israeli assault on Gaza has killed

3:15

injured and maimed or buried under the rabble at least 155,000 Palestinians entire fam is

3:24

exterminated and a 70% of the 45,000 are certain killed are

3:31

women and children 700 of those killed among the 177,000

3:37

children were babies Gaza is now A Wasteland of rubble garbage and human remains where

3:44

survivors Hold On To Life amid widespread deprivation and disease the Palestinians trapped there have

3:50

experienced a level of violence not seen anywhere in this Century there have they

3:55

have nothing to return to and all of this is by designed and still Israel

4:01

intensifies its Onslaught as we speak meanwhile the violence is metastasing to

4:06

the West Bank where clear patterns are replicating from Gaza since October 7 last year the rate at which Palestinians

4:13

have been killed has increased tfold on the previous 20y year average including

4:18

169 children a fifth of all children Israel all Palestinian children Israel

4:24

has executed since the year 2000 Palestinian academic human rights

4:30

Defenders Scholars doctors nurses children have arbitrarily swept up

4:37

incarcerated in a campaign of mass arrest now facing deprivation torture in squalid conditions without charge or

4:44

trial thousands have been displaced in the largest land grab in 30 years in the

4:50

West Bank and East Jerusalem and as I have continued to investigate document and call for action on genocide it has

4:56

been clear to me that there is also a denialism an obscure antism that hides

5:01

behind a common perception of what is genocide that has been clearly shaped by

5:06

the massive horror of the Holocaust and probably the features of the Rwandan genocide in both cases the almost

5:14

industrialized size scale and brutality of the extermination has been definitive of our Collective understanding of the

5:20

crime but I remind you genoside is not defined by personal opinions of P or

5:27

particular history uh is you can have genocide without mass killing and extermination and still in

5:35

Palestine we have this as well the colonial Amnesia of most western states

5:41

has led us to forget the hundreds of millions of people who have been genocided from Namibia Australia the

5:48

Americas and here ttle Island memory of the past is what will allow the future

5:54

to be different and this is why today knowledge is subversive the crime of

6:00

genocide consists of Acts accompanied by the intent to destroy in whole or in part a national ethnical racial or

6:06

religious group as such while destruction of the group is interpreted in physical or biological terms case law

6:13

derives intent from acts targeting the very foundation of the group including the destruction of the spirit the will

6:20

to live and of life itself so when assessing intent

6:25

especially State intent to destroy a group we must remember the genocide is a

6:30

process not a single act including a plurality of Acts and actors so key is

6:37

to identify the thread of intent that runs through this Collective conduct so

6:44

in line with existing Juris Prudence my latest report assesses Israel’s intent to dest destroy the Palestinian people

6:51

holistically through a tribal lens approach considering the totality of

6:56

Israeli conduct and crimes against the total of the Palestinian people as such

7:02

across the totality of the Palestinian territory unlawfully occupied by Israel and why do I insist on this framing let

7:09

me explain you why because the Palestinians have been suffering war crimes and crimes against humanity for

7:14

decades but these alone do not expose the scale of the crime nor illuminate the serious risk of rasure that they are

7:21

facing and far from alone in my assessment by November last year 30

7:27

independent un expert add raised the alarm of genocide and no on no less than

7:33

three occasions by January the international court of justice had identified a plausible risk of

7:38

irreparable harm to Palestinian rights under the genocide convention and has now indicated this uh

7:47

provisional measures at least three times in July the same court handed down a watershed advisory opinion explicitly

7:55

recognizing the occupation as unlawful in its entirety and emphas the obligation of States not to recognize

8:02

the occupation as legal nor render Aid or assistance to maintaining Israel’s unlawful presence and um its full

8:09

implementation is an imperative for Canada as well Canada has clear obligations under international law

8:16

toward the Palestinian people arms export license must be cancelled all of them transparency on third States and

8:23

direct transfers is an imperative the free trade agreement with Israel should be under urgent review Palestinian

8:30

refugees and forcibly displaced persons must be accepted and given proper and Urgent protection Palestinian and Muslim

8:37

humanitarian organizations must be allowed to do their urgent work without the undue scr undue scrutiny because of

8:43

their religion because this is discriminatory we have to speak accurately accurately and coherently in

8:49

calling this for what it is a genocide unlawful occupation apar and acting

8:55

accordingly thank you

9:01

[Music]

9:26

inter

9:55

IL

10:26

IM

10:58

can for

11:56

govern

12:05

you said that with few exceptions political leadership in Canada has either chosen not to meet with you or

12:10

withdrawn invitations to you can you name names of government officials like foreign minister Melanie Jolie for

12:16

example did you try to reach out to meet with her did she say no can you just be more specific about that yeah I was

12:21

supposed to have a meeting with a for committee and with a minister and uh it’s not going to take place and what I

12:28

what I think think is that it’s happening because of the pressure from

12:33

pro-israel Lobby groups who are very vocal very virulent very aggressive what

12:40

what what are they fearing what are they fearing I’m telling you the truth I’m

12:45

just speaking facts and international law and all the talks I’ve had here uh

12:52

from mreal uh and in various universities and other public encounters

12:59

have been um incredibly powerful because they are a moment of collective grief

13:06

but we there is a space for everyone to be heard and acknowledged and clearly there is no discrimination whatsoever

13:12

against anyone but this is exactly we can this is why they don’t want my um I

13:20

mean events hosting me to take place because it puts them in front of a mirror so just to be clear you were

13:26

supposed to have a meeting with Melanie Jolie but that was canc can and you think it’s because of the pro-israel

13:32

group’s pressure I had I cannot tell you what are the causes behind the

13:38

withdrawal of the uh of the invitations and agreement to have meetings I only

13:45

know that I H I mean I based myself on facts it happened after

13:51

um pro Israel groups and pro-israel individuals started to um to accuse my P

14:01

my Persona my Mandate of the usual that and I won’t repeat the

14:08

accusations because they are extremely defamatory but this is what I think um

14:15

poisoned the atmosphere in Canada it’s a choice it’s a choice not to meet with a

14:20

un independent expert and in the in the country I mean sad and and true

14:28

unfortunately are any government officials meeting you

14:34

um not that I know of things might change but I’m looking

14:40

at my team and no nothing has changed so but I’m meeting with parliamentarians and as I said I’m meeting with the the

14:46

original I mean the traditional custodians of the land which is a nice way to be welcome officially in this

14:58

country

15:27

for for

16:15

do you think sorry go ahead good morning Brian PAs to son

16:23

thanks so much for letting us ask questions today um your past comments on Israel and the war have been uh

16:29

um garos some criticism uh with Nations like Germany and France uh declaring

16:34

their comments as anti-semitic but that in mind um you talk to me are you able to acknowledge the role that Hamas has

16:41

in its current conf of course I’ve always done I mean there there is no question whatsoever about that let me be

16:47

clear I’ve said uh on October 7 and since then that the crimes that have

16:54

been committed against uh Israeli civilians had to be uh had to be

17:01

investigated and uh and punished no question about that I have condemned the

17:06

the crimes against Israeli civilians The Killing brutalization and uh and the

17:12

taking off hostages and with the same rigor and with the same firm spirit I

17:17

have condemned the crimes that Israel has committed against the Palestinian people before on and after October 7

17:23

including what now looks like a genocide Israel has capitalized on the rage Fury

17:28

and the extreme pain of the Israelis turning them into uh into many soldiers

17:35

into willful executioner of an extermination plan now let’s go to the

17:41

excuse me the the States you mentioned who have accused me are the United

17:46

States and Germany and France States who are clearly involved and supporting in

17:52

what Israel is doing it speaks to their record not mine because frankly not only

17:58

I am supported and and and um I mean I’ve been my mandate has been supported

18:04

and protected by Jewish people organizations and Scholars since the very beginning just to clear the record

18:10

but I have this is not my my statements are not against the Jewish people or

18:17

even the Israelis it’s my assessment is on the the performance of the Israeli

18:23

government it could be uh led by Buddhist Muslim Christians is it

18:29

wouldn’t change the problem is not the state of Israel this the problem is or or its existence the problem is the the

18:36

fact that Israel practices aptide against the Palestinian people uh continues to maintain an unlawful

18:42

occupation that is the vehicle to take the land to expropriate the resources and to erase the Palestinians and in

18:49

order to um enforce that plan it’s now also

18:55

committing a genocide genocide is a means to an end Israel has saved the

19:00

opportunity to continue what it has been doing since even before its existence

19:05

taking the land of historical Palestine without the Palestinians and it’s not even me listen to what they say they

19:10

ministers they’re parliamentarians they settlers and by the way there are Canadians Canadian individuals in

19:17

involved in this in the settlements and probably also fighting in Israel so this

19:22

is upon you to uh to know and correct

19:27

yes um in muchal you expressed some uh shock at Quebec opening up a trade office in Tel Aviv uh raised a few

19:34

eyebrows cuz uh Tel Aviv isn’t uh among the uh many disputed land in Israel um

19:40

do you believe that Israel has a right to exist Israel does exist Israel is recognized the member of the uh United

19:49

Nations besides this there is not such a thing in international law like a right

19:55

of a state to exist does Italy has a right to exist Italy exists now if

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tomorrow Italy and France want to merge and become ITA France fine this is not

20:05

up to us what is enshrining international law is the right of a people to exist so the state is there

20:13

the state of Israel is there is protected as a member of the United Nations does this justify the Erasure of

20:20

another another people hell no not 75 years ago not 57 years ago surely not

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today where is the protection of the of the Palestinian people from Erasure from

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annexation from illegal occupation and apar Tide this is what we need to

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discuss yes okay

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Act

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is

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Lo

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is

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uh um

23:59

um [Music]

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can

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can I ask about the two-state solution the Foreign Affairs committee here is studying what they call the quickest

25:07

path to recognize a Palestinian state by the government of Canada do you think that is a useful exercise uh could it

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lead to peace if Canada does so I I big you pardon but I I I’m not comfortable

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with language like useful exercise while there is an imag government officials or

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parliamentarians entertaining themselves as in useful exercise when there is a genocide ongoing the priority is to stop

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the genocide if the government here the parliamentarians want to call it sisire call it p and p and apple call it the

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way you want but this is the priority the rest is secondary which doesn’t mean

25:48

that the recognition of the State of Palestine is not important my question is if this country has entertained the

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discussions on on the two-state solution how come it has not recognized the state

26:00

of Palestine yet what what is to be debated so what again recognition the

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state of Palestine shouldn’t take time should be automatic should be an act of coherence otherwise if you don’t

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recognize it it means that you shouldn’t be talking about that at all why are you even a voice in the debate it’s about

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coherence I know that what I’m saying is blunt but we need to be blunt because the impunity that has been granted to

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Israel for decades has led to which is a disaster both for the Palestinians and

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the Israelis and again a diplomatic talks has been turn turned

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into into into a place to to justify uh the the the the inimaginable the illegal

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so yes the state of Palestine should be recognized let’s move on but the point the the question is not that the

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question is self-determination even if you recognize the state of Palestine and it’s merely a perfunctory act what do

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you do to realize the right of self-determination of the Palestinians is Canada spending any of its political

27:04

Capital to make sure that the genocide ends as soon as possible the isas fire whatever but then there is already a

27:11

deadline set for the end of the occupation the icj has passed an advisory opinion which declares the

27:17

occupation unlawful and to be dismantled unconditionally and totally as rapidly as possible and that as rapid as

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possible has been defined by the general assembly it must happen for SE by

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September next year what is Canada doing to ensure that the occupation is dismantled and then more than this there

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is apartheid I know that in this country you feel uncomfortable with the word apartheid but you have to tell me why

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because I together with Israeli human rights organizations Palestinian human rights organization Human Rights Watch

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uh Amnesty International Harvard University and thousands of Israelis talk about apartheid and give you the

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evidence of it and here like in other parts in North America I hear we cannot

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say that word it’s your problem I don’t I don’t again international law is so clear that doesn’t allow you to find

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excuses so however end of the genocide end of the occupation end of the aparti

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this is this is what it means applying international law and helping build

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peace for Palestinians and Israelis and anyone uh who calls that land

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home

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for

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for for

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goldber International what do you think you alluded to this in French I just want to ask again in English but you

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know Canada promotes itself this government especially as a government that supports a international

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rules-based order um you know but you can look no further to the South Africa case at the

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icj where the Prime Minister said they respect the court but not the ruling uh you know Canada’s inaction or lack of

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inaction what do you think that says to our reputation that we hold dear here that we are a country that uh respects

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the United Nations respects international law how does this event

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what’s happening in Israel and palestin speak to our our beliefs I can tell you the p i mean I I

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think I made it clear in French and English what I think I think that this is uh this is not coherent there is a

31:06

lot let be really let be very honest you cannot say that you com that

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you you you um are in favor you recognize the pracy of international law

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and then violate international law in the meantime you cannot say that you

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recognize the pracy of the international Court of of justice and then you depart

31:31

from the application of the principles that have been dictated by that Court there is incoherence and the incoherence

31:37

has a name is lack of compliance now how is how does this affect Canada’s

31:46

reputation look I think that the world is much more articulated in its capacity

31:52

of seeing and understanding also the nuances first of all something that I

31:57

mean I live in Arab country and I travel a lot across Arab countries and there is so much admiration for the young people

32:05

and the universities who have mobilized in this country in solidarity with the Palestinian people and and this includes

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in this country like in the United States a substantive Jewish component this is so important so fundamental

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because in a way it’s building a bridge that has been broken many decades ago

32:25

between the Jewish people and the Arab people this is men and so people

32:30

differentiate the the political level from from from the people in general I

32:37

also think that the media in this country as well like not different from the rest of the West have not been have

32:44

not been very diligent or led by ethical principles in uh in reporting uh what

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was happening in um in in in Palestine before October 7 on October 7 and after

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so probably the large there is large part of the Canadian people who don’t even know what what

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kind of Inferno uh Gaza has been turned into

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women unable to find the basics the basics from running water of course

33:13

everyone but as a woman I mean I would like people to empathize to realize what it means having an entire family

33:19

exterminated not having hospitals anymore all the universities destroyed the 300 schools destroyed all the UN

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buildings standing have 70% have been severely damaged and cannot be used Gaza

33:31

has been turned into Rubble is it a war no it’s not a war Israel has has

33:37

predicated this genocide on the killing of of terrorists when the entire

33:43

civilian population is in Gaza has been qualified as terrorist including the elderly including the children 177,000

33:51

children that if I told you Banes there would be better reaction but because

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they are Arab we don’t we don’t empathize this speaks to our racist and I say that as a

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European I see that in us and we need to let’s take this opportunity to do better

34:08

to recognize what doesn’t work in our societies and may this be the last

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genocide in in history this is where we are today and Canada is still seen as

34:20

part of the old settler Colonial block I’m sorry thank you this concludes the

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press conference say conference Merc thank you

oooooo

Tyrone@RelearningEcon