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“We Must De-Recognise Israel NOW!” | Tariq Ali https://youtu.be/cfB3NmWfiMI?si=49KNU_Yx7gOHUVxp
“We Must De-Recognise Israel NOW!” | Tariq Ali
Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfB3NmWfiMI
Tariq Ali argues recognising Palestine as a state “means nothing” and that what states should really be implementing is the de-recognition of Israel.
Tariq Ali is a writer and filmmaker. He has written more than a dozen books on world history and politics—including Pirates of the Caribbean, Bush in Babylon, The Clash of Fundamentalisms and The Obama Syndrome. Winston Churchill: His Times, His Crimes is his latest. He’s also written five novels in his Islam Quintet series and scripts for the stage and screen. He is an editor of the New Left Review.
0:00 – Introduction
03:00 – How should we interpret the mass protests in support for Gaza?
09:00 – The support to Israel from the Western political class
13:38 – Alan Duncan MP vs the Israel lobby in UK politics
18:00 – Islamophobia in the West since 9/11
24:20 – Why we should “de-recognise” Israel and have a single democratic state
29:53 – Israel’s endgame is a wider regional war and this genocide
30:38 –Electoral backlash in UK and US over Gaza
33:22 – Could a wider peace movement develop out of all this?
36:47 – Why have the Arab states sat by and allowed this genocide to happen?
43:17 – “Don’t give up, you are the opposition” – Tariq’s message to those protesting
Transkripzioa:
Introduction
0:00
welcome back and welcome to Palestine Deep dive where we examine the big issues in the Middle East and with a
0:07
special focus on Palestine and this week I’m delighted to be joined once again by
0:12
our old friend tarck Ali tarck needs no introduction but he’s going to get one anyway uh of course tarck is a political
0:20
activist writer journalist historian and filmmaker he’s a member of the editorial
0:26
Committee of the new Left review and contributes to counter punch the London Review of Books uh and many other
0:33
Publications um throughout this grotesque War T of course has been
0:38
playing a very prominent part very prominent role in the campaign and the and the marches for peace and Ceasar and
0:47
a final settlement in Gaza and of course in the same way the tar has been active
0:52
from the 1960s onwards and we will touch on that briefly today because there are of course lessons from the past because
1:00
the past we inherit the future we build I kept on seeing that at the Durham miners Gaya this weekend on all of those
1:08
um banners that went past tck I didn’t see you on the banners unfortunately but that’ll be no doubt there’ll be you’ll
1:14
be there one day but um there were various other people that I’m sure you would have approved of on the banners um
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and uh anyway just to say um that of course uh uh tck is also an author of
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very many books um you can look them up if you haven’t and you’ve probably read many of them anyway um I’m Mark SED I
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used to work for Al jazer and I also used to work for the United Nations um and I was a speech writer for Banky moon
1:41
for a while um back in the day I used to edit a left-wing paper called Tribune
1:46
which is still around and still fairly leftwing but look TK if I could just begin um we’re looking at this great
1:54
wave of global demonstrations you know every week in capitals across the world and cities and
2:01
towns even Villages I mean it has been quite extraordinary um and there’s been taking
2:07
place almost every weekend or every week since the Israeli attacks on Gaza began
2:12
almost nine months ago and you I wanted to ask you this because it’s always an
2:17
excuse to uh to remind ourselves that this comment from former Chinese Premier
2:24
Cho and Li I don’t know whether you’ll tell me if he actually said this or not but he was asked apparently
2:30
in 1972 as to the effects of the French Revolution to which he was supposed to
2:36
have said it’s too early to say so um tck on the basis of that is uh not
2:43
apocryphal and it’s true is it too early to say how this Global Response to
2:50
Israel’s murderous campaign and the role of the West the West versus the rest
2:55
effectively is influencing a whole new generation of people first I think it’s
3:03
important to um sort out the true and lie statement it’s not true it’s
3:10
apocryphal what he actually said which was misinterpreted by the
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journalists uh uh and by the rest of the world not so much by the journalist the
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journalist asked him what do you think of the
3:27
1968 revolutionary events in France and to that the Chinese
3:34
Prime Minister replied it’s too early to say and he was right but because of China’s ancient
3:41
civilization many papers sort of glorified this into a classic Chinese
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comment on the long durate history is a long process yeah but returning
3:55
to returning to the demonstrations and the mobilizations
4:01
I have not seen anything like this ever before even on Vietnam you know where
4:07
everyone now claims oh yes we were against the war we were they weren’t I
4:13
mean it was at the height of the Cold War Vietnam was seen by the United
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States and its allies as part of the Cold War most of the press in Britain uh
4:25
supported the US and in the early days most of the press and the US supported
4:32
uh supported the war the only country which didn’t support the war was France
4:40
under General deol at the time who had learned enough had experiences in
4:47
Algeria and Vietnam he said this is wrong it should be stopped immediately
4:52
and it’s a huge mistake the Americans have made which they’ll regret interestingly
5:00
not a single European country including Harold Wilson’s labor government in
5:05
Britain agreed to send troops to fight with the Americans in Vietnam the only
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two countries that did were Australia and South Korea and the Australian
5:17
people revolted and elected gof whitlam a labor leader as prime minister and
5:22
Goff had pledged that if he were elected he would pull the troops out and he did
5:27
for which he was punished by the British State and removed from office and then
5:33
John the late John Pilcher described it as a sorted unpleasant constitutional Kor so it was
5:42
a different period in in in many ways what we are seeing
5:47
now is that the United States with most of
5:54
Europe with the exceptions of Spain uh and I
6:00
uh supporting the United States and the war in Israel I mean this is a genocide
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supported by NATO uh supported by the United States
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and all the organizations that were created soon after the second world war
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um are are are lying fellow they’re ignored the IC that was created
6:27
relatively recently ignored pressure put on it withdraw your
6:33
charges the international court of justice initiated by the South Africans
6:39
the case found Israel the the Judgment was Israel had a case to answer and a genocide of sorts
6:47
was taking place ignored human rights organization like amnesty ignored so
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what we have Mark is a very dangerous uh situation at the moment
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where without the support of the United States nothing can be done through
7:07
Global institutions this poor and very courageous uh Secretary General of the
7:14
UN is really tearing his hair out he’s attacked the genocide he’s attacked with
7:20
the no impact why because it now comes clear as The Masks come off that behind
7:27
all these things unless you have us support you can’t move that’s the that’s the big problem
7:34
counter to that um we have the Mass mobilizations from below the only real
7:42
serious consistent opposition to Israeli barbarism in Palestine that we are
7:49
witnessing I mean it ter it does for many across the world look as though it’s the West against the rest uh what
7:56
you were saying there uh and the comparison you were making also with the Vietnam War and also the Iraq War as
8:04
well I mean there were huge public protests that did have a major influence
8:11
um and yet we can we can see some of the influences beginning to play out here but I think people are really quite
8:18
they’re trying to come to terms with the fact that it’s just so impervious you know what is this utter block and you
8:25
sometimes you sit back and you wonder what is it what it’s going through a new British foreign secretary’s head when
8:31
he’s just seen what has happened to some of his colleagues when he’s seen all the protests in theet he knows he must know
8:37
unless unless he hasn’t got a brain functioning that having a photograph taken shaking the hand of Benyamin
8:44
Netanyahu really isn’t going to go down very well across the rest of the world so what is it that’s making as you say
8:50
the US state department Israel do they really have such a hold on a on a
8:57
political class and political institution and other countries they seem to now uh they didn’t have it on
9:05
previous occasions after all let’s not forget uh Israel got bowled out by
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Truman by Eisenhower told them to get out of
9:18
Gaza within two weeks or sanctions would be imposed um after the SE War by Bush the
9:26
first who threatened to withdraw million millions of dollars of Aid unless they came to the conference table Etc this
9:35
regime or series of regimes beginning with Clinton going through
9:41
Obama uh Bush Jr and now with Biden both political parties as one refusing to
9:49
tackle the very serious problem that the way in which Israel functions has
9:56
created both in Palestine and the rest of the Arab world and now they’re screaming for Iran to be invaded for hez
10:03
buah to be taken on I think there is a deep
10:10
crisis of political strategy at the top levels of the American Administration I
10:17
mean to have a half demented president in charge for the last two years doesn’t
10:23
speak well and I always point out when people say I said if Biden alone were
10:29
running the administration we could say that but he is surrounded by state
10:36
agencies by the Department of Defense what are they saying to him and
10:42
you know were he to drop basically they would uh the state apparatus would
10:50
control like they did during the Reagan years you know when Reagan used to land in Guatemala and think he was in
10:57
Salvador uh you know people would come quickly when
11:03
Biden you know welcomes Putin rather than zalinsky at a conference recently
11:08
people try and save him but behind all this there is a serious American state
11:14
and that state doesn’t know what to do and that is the frightening thing I
11:19
don’t know what the big discussions are going on in the CIA and the defense intelligence agency but the Israelis
11:26
retiring Israeli generals are now saying we can’t win this war yes some are
11:32
saying we’ve lost it Mark as for Britain you know quite honestly since Suz in
11:41
1956 um a war they wag without us permission they’ve been reduced to the
11:48
status of aat tropy they’re sort of us they do what the US says their military
11:54
their intelligence networks are totally Linked In
11:59
the last Revolt from within the British state was during Iraq when 60 former
12:05
ambassadors wrote a public letter to the time saying this war was wrong and should not take place which was an
12:11
enormous help to those of us organizing the uh the demonstrations so um it’s um it’s it’s
12:20
much worse than that now when STA and Lamy and this and that person basically
12:29
say we can’t go against the United States we can’t call for a ceasefire till the United States calls for a
12:35
ceasefire they have actually said that yes yes you know so it’s it’s the worst
12:42
government and they’re now putting pressure on the police force as well to
12:47
stop demonstrators I mean tiny groups 50 people saying don’t sell arms to Israel
12:54
being picked up uh uh off the parks and streets and up for a few day a day or so
13:01
it’s a it’s it’s pretty bad which is why the demonstrations really have to
13:06
continue in whatever shape or form they must not stop till this bloody genocide
13:12
is stopped no it’s very interesting that on not in a domestic context I mean you
13:17
know this past weekend in Durham I think there was some concern that pressure had come from the police uh that if
13:24
Ambassador zlot was to appear that could be you know an issue of Public Safety so
13:30
you do see this really quite pernicious things happening but I just want I know we don’t I mean we’re going to focus
13:36
very much on an international scale but I just wanted to focus on one domestic issue T which was the and you probably
13:42
saw it yesterday um not necessarily a great friend of like you or me or Omar
13:49
or anybody else but um Alan d conservative Minister I mean this was an
13:55
extraordinary thing and for people who didn’t see it um here was a former conservative Minister who faced what he
14:02
said were a series of concocted charges that emanated as a result of some claims
14:09
from the British Board of deputies and an outfit called The Campaign against anti-Semitism these he said were then
14:16
crafted into charges by senior unnamed Tories from the conservative friends of Israel um
14:24
and I was listening to this and thinking it’s quite extraordinary that yeah these links are so powerful that actually
14:31
these or when he said conservative friends of Israel for some reason I immedately started thinking about Labor
14:38
friends of Israel and probably I mean I’ve got no evidence but it would suggest that the same kind of tactics
14:45
have been used against countless numbers of people but in the case of the labor party the idea of getting some due
14:51
process that at least Alan dunan could get also because he’s sufficiently wealthy to get lawyered up but this does
14:58
tell you something something about the rotten nature and how how it is so difficult to get things to change in
15:05
these political parties doesn’t it I agree entirely Mark I was very pleasantly surprised a that Alan Duncan
15:12
had gone to court which I didn’t know B that he had actually won the case and
15:18
you know there were people at the time that the uh British State and the labor
15:24
party rightwing which now has the party uh decided to use anti-Semitism to bring
15:32
Corbin down my instinct at the time and I said so in public and to Jeremy and
15:39
his allies that you have to fight back do not accept it say it’s a load of
15:45
rubbish don’t be defensive and in some cases I suggest it worth going to court
15:51
because it’s a slander the worst order to say you’re anti-semitic and by implication support the judeo side of
15:58
the second world War I mean if someone called me that I wouldn’t be bothered to sue but you know I would be tempted if a
16:05
lawyer Lefty lawyers said let’s take them on and a Tory former Tor cabinet
16:12
minister uh taking them on like this should be a lesson to even the left MPS
16:19
inside the labor party who’ be denounced as that the fact is that inside
16:25
Labor uh as you know Mark more Jews have been suspended I think
16:31
than at any other time in the history of the labor part it’s just that the wrong kind of Jews they’re not the good Jews
16:39
the good Jews are the zionists the bad Jews are the anti-zionists that’s how they function
16:46
today in Germany in Britain in France so and not to mention the United States so
16:54
it’s um it’s a very strange weird world we live in well you know T I
17:01
was gonna come on to this because Ian there there are couple of things that come out of that in a funny way because you see in America the rise of the
17:08
fundamentalist Christian Evangelical right and with this guy JD Vance who’s
17:13
now vice president candidate wannabe very interesting backstory and all the rest of it but at the same time a
17:19
visceral kind of anti-muslim um racism that comes through from so many of these
17:25
people and then there’s also the contrast in in Germany would you just mention where for instance you find the
17:30
green party being one of the most kind of um reactionary exactly now what is is it
17:39
what is it or there’s something deeper ining all of this kind of an in the case of America there’s a the right-wing
17:45
anti-muslim um thing going on in Germany some weird kind of I’m not asking you to
17:50
be a kind of um psychologist or whatever on a national scale but something very weird is happening in Germany and we’re
17:59
trying to get the heads rounded the yeah the states is a bit different there is islamophobia and has been ever since
18:06
911 uh Muslims have been under Fire and uh attacked I I mean one tiny uh episode
18:16
Mark symbolizes this uh I was speaking a lot in the states after 9911 and I met a
18:23
friend and not a friend a guy who read my books who’s in the Bookshop and the Bookshop on I said tell tar your story
18:31
he was a Muslim guy Harvard PhD so he said it’s a I said tell me he said my
18:38
dad was a republican a Muslim surgeon uh who given lots of money to
18:45
the Republican Party he was one of the top heart surgeons in the United States uh and the day after 911 he was
18:56
on vice president chenes medical staff he was
19:03
sacked I I said just like that he said yes and he’ saved Cheney’s life in a
19:10
life-saving operation not so long ago so I said for that alone he should be charged in private by his family and
19:17
they said we go on all the time about it you’ve given so much money to the Republicans you’ve done and this is the
19:24
result so it happened on a top level too not just against against uh you know
19:30
working class or shopkeeper Muslims Etc and it’s been going on and it it picks
19:35
up during the Iraq War again and now of course in Palestine the difference with
19:41
the US and the rest of Europe is this that the young Jews who’ve come out
19:46
against the war in the United States are admirable people you know they occupied
19:52
Grand Central they’ve been on all the demonstrations they take part in the encampments and Jews in Britain too Jews
20:00
for justice the Jewish block has been getting bigger and bigger on demonstrations this is not so in France
20:06
in Germany young Jews protesting against what’s happening in Palestine have been
20:12
picked up brutally by German soldiers and locked up so much for respecting the
20:20
Jewish identity um and Germany I think is just completely flipped even before this
20:29
uh the greens by the way have been going right rightward since the Yugoslav War they were strong strongly in favor of it
20:36
in favor of NATO I gave up on them just Tre them as yet another small bgea party
20:43
whose leaders are total opportunist and that’s now being completely uh Vindicated but the real danger is that
20:50
with this sort of extreme center block the greens the social Democrats the
20:56
Christian democrats Etc behaving like this people go to the far
21:02
right they don’t go to the left you know um and so you have the afd a mass
21:10
right-wing party which contains fascists uh uh inside its uh uh ranks one of
21:17
their sort of minor leaders was expelled a few weeks ago for saying that the SS
21:24
did a lot of good things so um I’m sure from his point of view they did uh and
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uh so they have not supported the war in Ukraine that’s a big point of difference
21:39
uh in with the Germans they’re against the war quite a lot of them on palistine
21:44
the ones who don’t like what’s happening to the Palestinians tend to remain silent the ones who speak out are people
21:53
of Migrant Origins Arabs Palestinians others who happen to be in
21:59
Germany so they haven’t been able to totally stop the demonstrations in Germany yeah but but it’s a very strange
22:07
country to be in and today they’re saying that they want
22:13
to sabotage the icc’s uh warrants they’ve said it openly
22:19
we’re getting our lawyers working on this to stop this prosecution from going
22:25
ahead well we’ll see about that because um I mean Daniel mover has got some very
22:31
interesting things to say about how individual countries can try and block arrestor warrants we’ll see it but I
22:36
mean again it goes back to your point about the international institutions created by countries like Germany and
22:42
Britain and yet when they start acting in a way that governments don’t like I
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mean just as an aside when you were talking about you know what happens um when when the the the center whatever
22:54
you call a center it’s called the center extreme Center extreme Center um when it fails people go don’t not to the left
23:01
but to the right to begin with that if you look at the old coal fields and many of the constituencies across this
23:08
country reform UK was in second place I know and in that constituency that Luke
23:13
Aur won he would have been beaten by reform and the Tories combined so I mean you know straws in the wind and
23:19
everything but T I’ve just want really to go to something that happened
23:24
yesterday you will have seen it the knesset voted overwhelmingly against any two-state solution I think
23:31
there were about only eight members probably uh Arab um Palestinian members
23:37
who opposed it and you know given that the two-state solution I know it’s the official United Nations position of
23:45
member states and what have you but it is the Fig Leaf that’s kind of waved whenever a western Minister goes to
23:51
Israel palestin um but given that Netanyahu and the Israelis we know
23:57
netanyahu’s never had any time for a two-state solution they will want a one-state solution with the Palestinians
24:03
out so I’ve been increasingly interested i’ like a lot of us have um in what
24:09
you’ve been talking about in terms of D recognizing Israel and presumably when you say that Israel should be
24:14
derecognized you say you’re saying that really there should be a one-state solution a secular Democratic one
24:20
absolutely and you know what I was very struck by uh after this particular
24:28
genocide began that no chomsky’s first comment
24:35
he’s now sadly ill and paralyzed in hospital and can’t speak but gnome’s
24:41
first comment in public when he was asked what do you think about the war
24:47
and Nome just said Israel should no longer exist it stunned me because that had
24:54
never been his position before and some people misinterpret did it he was not
25:00
saying you know the Jews should be chucked out or any remotely what he was
25:05
saying is that the Israeli Jews alone could not be allowed to run the state
25:12
you needed a single secular Democratic state with equal rights for Palestinians
25:18
Muslims Jews whoever uh and that had never been GM’s or Norman finklestein’s
25:25
position before I don’t know whether Norm has changed his but I was glad Noom has because this is an argument that’s
25:31
been going on amongst us and in public on the left for uh a long long time let
25:38
me give you another episode on this about 10 years ago Mark I was invited by
25:43
the Spanish foreign office to engage in a public seminar debate with the former
25:51
Israeli foreign minister schlomo banami and we discussed you know we
25:56
disagreed and discussed over lunch that same day and I had been stressing that
26:02
the two-state solution was a nonstarter because the Israelis had no intention of
26:08
giving even a tincture of sovereignty to the Palestinians um and he had you know sort
26:16
of mildly disagreed and over
26:21
lunch uh the Spanish foreign office officials asked schen I mean trying to
26:27
Eng appreciate himself a bit saying do you think T Ali was too harsh today and
26:34
benami said no actually I can now say to you he’s right there is no two-state
26:40
solution there is only a single state solution and it’s our policies that have
26:46
led to that that we have now ourselves created a situation when there
26:52
nothing else is possible Spanish so I said to him please take this back to your foreign office tell them it’s just
26:59
a joke to carry on talking about about a
27:05
a two- State solution it’s just a f Le Mark there’s nothing it’s it’s nothing
27:10
more it’s like um the other business which is
27:16
going on EXC country Spain Ireland blah
27:21
blong from all over the world recognize Palestine fine as a symbolic gesture
27:27
good even but it means nothing cuz what are you recognizing nothing you’re
27:33
recognizing the Palestinian Authority which has been collaborating and still is to this day with these reades refuses
27:41
to criticize Israel at all and is hoping that the Americans will somehow protect
27:47
it uh which is clearly not uh not happening so the only serious demand
27:54
today I I think is derecognize it is Isel withdraw your ambassadors break off
28:01
relations with them break off trade relations with them the yonies you know
28:08
for all their sort of Romanticism have actually been successful they have
28:13
closed down the port of ISAT in Israel where hardly any trade is is is Flowing
28:21
they’re in a terrible mess because they said we’re not going to let these ships cross you want to come and attack us and
28:26
kill us they say to the American Americans do it you’ve been doing it for the last so many years where has it got
28:33
you our people are without arms and legs we prepared to do this sacrifice for
28:39
Palestine I mean ter do do not think I mean all of this and that vote yesterday
28:44
and what of course we’ve all been saying about Netanyahu for years it really does crystallize everything because people
28:50
will be able to see that what Netanyahu wants a greater Israel um with only
28:57
those pal Palestinians Arabs Palestinian Muslims Christians other only those
29:03
people who are prepared to live as second class citizens remaining that’s his one state in comparison with what
29:11
everybody else is outlining and saying could be a secular Democratic State I mean AR isn’t everybody supposed to be
29:17
in favor of one person one vote and so it becomes so crystallized that netan
29:24
who has to go for this kind of existential end game war and do you
29:29
think that really he is waiting for a trump presidency although Trump doesn’t
29:35
like netan netan Netanyahu much but is he is he waiting really to does oh he’s
29:40
been pushing for it but does he want this kind of endg game War where you
29:45
know greater Israel somehow emerges From the Ashes of a crushed Iran a crushed Palestine and everything else is that
29:52
really what he’s about I think so that’s why we call it a genocide I mean anyone
29:59
even sort of unbiased people who are don’t support either side are pretty
30:04
horrified by this war they won’t open their mouths but they are uh they don’t
30:11
want to take sides in public but they know what’s going on that the Palestinian population in Gaza and its
30:19
environs is slowly being wiped out with the Western World watching uh with the
30:26
citizens of the West uh sleep walking to their offices every day trying to
30:34
imagine it’s not going on it doesn’t exist and Mark one thing we haven’t
30:40
discussed but the victory of some of these Independence in the British general
30:45
election is a new development you know that has not happened since the second world war when I think two Communists
30:52
were elected one in the East and then one in Scotland as a result of the Soviet victories in that war till after
31:00
that labor has exercised a very firm Monopoly hold on working class in
31:06
Progressive representation in Parliament Jeremy broke that thank God it would
31:11
have been depressing had he lost uh but other Independence too of one sort or
31:16
another so this is the direct result of
31:22
Gaza that has never happened in Britain before that Britain has ever been J Ed
31:29
uh politically by a foreign war that it is supporting and similar things will
31:35
happen in the in the United States because a number of states Michigan to
31:41
start off with but also Florida and others two others which have large Arab
31:47
population said we will never vote Trump but we’re not going to vote for Biden either so what is being created per
31:55
force is a new I won’t go beyond that which is um which
32:02
is uh very positive but coming back if I might just come in there it’s a new current and also it’s coming in the on
32:08
the back of of something that’s clearly dying and that is in terms of the turnout and the British general election
32:15
low the fact that um you know the the starmer changed labor party actually got
32:22
fewer overall votes than Jeremy Corbin the Labour party led by Jeremy Corbin in 2017 in 2019 and then of course these
32:29
independent candidates as you say but also the L you know John Jonathan Ashworth lost his seat uh West streeting
32:38
almost did I mean quite profound things are happening and I’m just I suppose I hadn’t thought about asking this but
32:45
becomes bigger as things move on um because in two to three years we I mean
32:50
the Palestine issue Gaza issue clearly has profoundly influenced a lot of
32:55
people and it’s all very well for the right-wing media to concentrate and say it’s a mus British Muslim ISU it’s far
33:02
far wider than that we all know that but does it get to the stage perhaps two to three I know this is Crystal Ball gazing
33:09
but does possibly the potential of a wider war that NATO seems to want to fight against Russia play into this as
33:16
well and there’s a much much bigger anti-war peace Progressive Movement that
33:21
grows out of all of this difficult to say uh uh um ult to
33:28
say Mark but I think some of the the the
33:33
problem for the European Hawks on Ukraine uh the
33:38
Germans and the British in particular but also maon in France is that on the
33:45
question of Ukraine uh Trump and Vance want to bring
33:51
the war to in end both of them have said it in different ways so you might have a
33:57
clash which the Americans will obviously win of a negotiated settlement in
34:02
Ukraine and whatever I mean as you know we were all opposed to what Putin did
34:08
but the only way out now is not escalation but a
34:14
negotiated settlement gatal used to say it once upon a time gej not war war he
34:21
said it over suis and the same thing applies here and the British will fall into line I mean the parliament which
34:28
abased Itself by cout before zilinski will cow before someone else when the
34:34
media needs to build him or her up don’t worry about that that’ll happen so I’m
34:40
if a trump Victory ironically enough could make Europe more peaceful the
34:46
China is the big worry that they might start some adventures in China uh
34:52
because they cannot tolerate its remarkable uh economic growth and it’s
34:58
standing in the world they say it openly it the fact China is doing so well challenges the United States and for
35:05
them the only way out uh is War and the Chinese statements I have to say on
35:11
Palestine of late been very good you know trying to sort of end this uh
35:17
business as they have on Ukraine and as long as the Chinese were quiescent and
35:23
supporting US foreign policy there was nothing wrong with China at all what a wonderful demonstration of the glories
35:30
of world capitalism but now that they become independent and asserting their
35:35
own sovereignty oh they are bad people they’re a danger to us well T you you’ll
35:41
remember when President Putin spoke to President Clinton about joining NATO I
35:47
know I know and and why didn’t they have the Russians in NATO they could have
35:52
controlled them because Russia was too big that’s what they felt
35:58
and and be that Russian German complimentarity on many levels could
36:03
actually damage us interest yes yes TK you know we’re conscious of time um I’ve
36:10
just got a couple more questions for you and one comes up all the time and and
36:15
that is from people who look who’ve been right across the world marching demonstrating doing whatever they
36:21
conceivably can and then looking at the response of the Arab world I don’t mean the people the Arabs street because we
36:28
know how people are treated who go on the street in many Arab countries but people cannot fathom how it is that the
36:36
Arab world Egypt in particular uh the Gulf States uh have just sat by and
36:43
allow this genocide to continue what is your explanation for this my explanation
36:48
for this is that they have completely in utterly the Gulf States were never anything else but glorified petrol
36:56
stations first for the British Empire and then the American Empire so I don’t give them too much attention Jordan has
37:03
been an Israeli American protectorate ever since the cold war came to an end
37:08
and the Egyptian Army sold out um after the 73 war and agreed to do
37:18
a deal with Israel which included no questioning of what the Israelis uh were
37:25
up to when Mubarak was was being toppled he rang up his Israeli Minister friend
37:32
and said look the people are out against me and the Israel Minister said what about the Army he knew where the power
37:39
was and Mubarak evidently replied according to reports uncertain and the
37:46
Israelis said then you’re sunk but the thing is this that the Israelis
37:51
immediately transferred their support to CC they did not want an ele Ed Muslim
37:58
Brotherhood government which of course as we know made huge mistakes uh and and toppled it and got
38:06
CC even elected with the Liberals in toe and
38:12
this has turned out to be a complete disaster because there is more torture more arrests more horrific stories
38:19
coming out than even during the uh the the mbarak years so that is what keeps
38:27
each eypt in line is the billions it gets from the United States the Army is bought by the United States and unless
38:35
there’s a radicalization of young officers in the army that it that will not happen unless there’s Mass uprisings
38:43
if there is a mass Uprising in Egypt and it’s a huge if then the Army will split
38:50
because people have memories they have Traditions uh but failing that no but
38:55
you know worse even than Egypt in a way which is trapped by its own foolishness
39:00
is countries like Morocco supplying Refuge to Israeli trade and and warships I mean
39:08
mosad organizes the palace god of the king of Morocco so the Israelis have
39:14
been incredibly clever in penetrating and infiltrating these societies Egypt
39:21
they can’t to the same extent as they can Morocco but the only way out is uh
39:28
unfortunately one has to say this is this huge national uprisings uh to
39:34
topple these regimes who will fight back viciously uh and which is why people are
39:39
scared given what’s already happened in that country then you take that
39:47
Libya Iraq Syria the three countries which had some semblance of national
39:55
sovereignty all been destroyed uh Syria survived but it’s still being
40:01
bombed either by the Israelis or the Americans Iraq there still Americans in
40:06
there they haven’t completely withdrawn and they now want to tackle Iran so the
40:12
Middle East I think Remains the most dangerous uh and explosive uh place for
40:19
them which is why the SAA marginally more rational elements in American
40:27
R ruling Elite circles uh including the Army want some settlement in Israel
40:34
which they can pretend is yet again a master settlement look we’ve saved everything etc etc and some bogus Bantan
40:43
type states which they now try and create again as long as they get rid of Netanyahu there’s no way to get rid of
40:50
Netanyahu electorally unfortunately is quite popular I mean according to reports that he might even win again or
40:58
his party might win again without him and some elements in his party in his cabinet are worse than even him so we’re
41:06
looking at a rightwing far right takeover of
41:12
the uh of the Israeli government with the Israeli state divided in terms of
41:20
which way to go forward that’s what’s going on and in this situation the the
41:26
Palestinian and Authority were it even possible for it to act as an independent Force could
41:33
play a role but they will not do it I mean Hanan ashrafi and a few others uh
41:40
you know brave characters speak up but from abas and the rest of this corrupt
41:46
gang nothing absolutely nothing which is a disgrace as Palestinians are being
41:52
killed every single day both in Gaza and the West Bank
41:58
look finally TK I mean and um you know I suppose it’s quite a big question but panning through the past decades you
42:06
were part and parcel of the great campaign against the Vietnam War you’ve
42:12
been part of the anti-colonial struggles as well and seen the end of Apartheid
42:17
South Africa you were heavily involved in all of that you were opposed to the Iraq War um people such as you and
42:26
others none of us could prevent it but we can look back and say we were right
42:32
most people agree with us so you’ve seen so many times when terrible things have happened but people have been a actually
42:40
able to affect change they have been able to turn things around and to stop them the Vietnam war did come to an end
42:46
there was pressure on that Harold Wilson labor government you refer to they didn’t even send a bunch of people
42:52
playing the bag pipes so what would you say to people now you know those people
42:58
who’ have been out on the streets every day every week over Palestine not just here but all over the place who are
43:05
feeling kind right now rather powerless I’m thinking what on Earth else can we
43:10
do what message I’m looking back over the decades and from your experience
43:15
would you give them I would say don’t give up because the very fact that
43:21
you’ve been demonstrating on the streets here in the United States the encampments elsewhere regular
43:29
consistent uh demonstrations especially in the third world barring India which
43:34
has been a disaster but uh I would just say don’t give up because you are the
43:40
opposition not just on Gaza but the way you’re behaving the way you’re acting
43:46
the way you’re beginning to recognize what the West is and how the West
43:52
ignores all its own so-called values when when it needs to shows that our
44:00
presence is absolutely necessary and it’s not much but it’s nothing compared
44:08
to what the Palestinians are suffering so we owe this to the Palestinians to
44:14
stay out as long as they’re out and they’re out with bombs and drones and
44:21
killings and tanks no one is doing that to the demonstrators as yet they’ve been
44:27
episodes in the United States of sort of police brutality on some campuses and here the police are getting more vicious
44:34
uh with the labor Home Secretary trying to show her throw her wait to around
44:40
they want to end this because they link it also to their own decline as a
44:45
political force in this country what can we do Mark we fight on the best way we
44:51
can on the streets with our pens with making documentaries with doing whatever
44:57
we can in a curious way we can do more now with many alternative means like
45:04
this podcast than we could in the 60s or 70s or 80s this technological
45:11
transformation has also been very beneficial for the creation and
45:16
emergence of new opposition forces all over the world thank you very very much indeed TK
45:24
thanks to TK Ali for being with us today uh and thank you also for joining us
45:30
from wherever you are so until the next time uh from tck and from Omar and all
45:35
our colleagues at Palestine Deep dive thank you very much and see you next time
oooooo
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