From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (35)

Gaza BEFORE Israel showed up

Israel is a criminal state

ooo

Does Israel have a future? with Ilan Pappé

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_uJ4kiUtB4)

The Israeli Jewish public consistently supported the genocide in Gaza by large margins, according to opinion polls. But in recent months things started to shift. An overwhelming majority now say they support the ceasefire and prisoner exchange deal that went into effect in January.

Earlier this month, the Israel Democracy Institute published a poll which found that 66 percent of Israeli Jews agree that “Israel should proceed to the second stage, which includes a complete end to fighting, withdrawal from Gaza and the release of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the release of all the hostages.”

And another poll, published by the Lazar institute at the end of January, found that only four percent of Israelis believe that the goals of the war in Gaza were met.

We are joined by historian Ilan Pappé, who will share his insights into the state of Israeli politics and society in the context of broader geopolitical developments.

This is a segment from The Electronic Intifada’s livestream on day 33 of the Gaza ceasefire. Ali Abunimah, Nora Barrows-Friedman, Jon Elmer and Asa Winstanley were joined by historian Ilan Pappé.

You can watch the full show here: https://youtube.com/live/4ZJx-FDrsK4

Transkripzioa:

0:00

we’re delighted now to welcome someone back to the live stream who we last spoke to almost a year ago which is

0:06

incredible to me Elan Pape is Professor of history at the University of exitor

0:11

in the UK and director of the European Center for Palestine studies he gained Renown as one of the

0:18

new historians a group of Israeli Scholars who in the 1980s shattered long-standing Zionist lies about the

0:25

founding of Israel and corroborated Palestinian accounts of the NEC B using

0:30

Israeli archival sources he’s the author of many many books more than I can keep

0:37

up with uh and there’s a a new one coming up that we’ll we’ll talk about in a bit but he’s the author of a history

0:44

of modern Palestine one land two peoples and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine

0:50

Elan is also a regular contributor to the electronic and Def he is a

0:57

distinguished scholar and uh has been a longtime Advocate and voice for the

1:03

liberation of Palestine welcome back to the electronic in Father live stream

1:08

Elan thank you Ali and Nora and ASA it’s so good to be again in the show thank

1:14

you for reinviting me thank you and we know you’ve been and we know you’ve been traveling

1:21

too and you have a tough schedule so we’re incredibly grateful that you were able to make time for us Elan let’s get

1:28

right into it then it’s been one month since the ceasefire took effect in Gaza

1:35

and we’ve now witnessed six prisoner exchanges in which Israelis have returned from Gaza and Palestinians have

1:42

been released from Israel’s prisons and torture chambers talk about how these scenes are

1:49

being viewed in Israel yes well again uh we have to uh

1:55

stress and remember that most of the Israelis not all of them but most of the Israeli Jews

2:02

get their uh information only from One Source the uh three or four official TV

2:10

channels which are very selective in the way that they cover uh these exchanges

2:16

or the whole issue of the ceasefire and that of course impacts the way the Israelis understand what they are seeing

2:24

so for example there is no at all coverage of what goes on on the pal inan

2:30

side how do the prisoners released look like what they have experienced how they

2:36

are welcomed it’s if is only there’s only one side to this uh exchange and

2:44

the commentary uh is is very biased of course so I would say that on the one

2:50

hand of course families which are directly uh connected to people who were

2:57

uh released in this prisoners ex change deal are delighted and of course feel a

3:04

great relief uh as do probably a lot of the people who support them but on the

3:10

other hand there is still a very strong sense and that’s a bizarre situation and I’m sure you you are familiar with it by

3:17

now almost even I would say almost

3:23

any respectable journalist let’s put it this way in Israel uh respectable for

3:29

these really it’s not necessarily for me uh claim that Netanyahu is still doing

3:36

his best to fail the deal and that um this is still a huge problem and there’s

3:43

a lot of pessimism about what is called the second phase of the exchange um why

3:49

do I say it’s it’s a bizarre situation because unfortunately this lacken of

3:54

confidence in nany’s genuine will to see the prisoner Exchange come to to

4:01

fruition uh there’s no change in the attitude towards the genocide in Gaza

4:08

all to to the fact that Israel says very loudly and clearly that once the

4:15

prisoner exchange deal will end it will try and go back to war if it doesn’t get

4:22

uh uh the vision of Gaza that it wishes for um so I I would say it’s kind of

4:29

very emotional part for people who were directly involved either in the exchange

4:34

because they are their relatives or because they were part of the movement that demanded the The

4:41

Exchange uh and yet uh this whole skepticism about whether it will be

4:48

completed and whether this really means the end of of the War uh I think that

4:56

sort of sums up uh what you can gather from from the mood of the of the society

5:02

and the main media of that Society I mean following up on that for

5:09

most of the last 16 months opinion polls showed that the Israeli Jewish public strongly supported continuing the

5:16

genocide in Gaza um as well as some of its top uh lawmakers and and members of

5:22

of knesset but in recent months the mood seems to have shifted uh early this

5:27

month the Israeli democracy Institute published a poll which found that 66% of Israeli Jews agreed that quote

5:35

Israel should proceed to the second stage which includes a complete end to fighting withdrawal from Gaza and the

5:42

release of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for the release of all the hostages and another poll published by

5:48

the Lazar Institute at the end of January found that only 4% of Israelis believe that the goals of the war in

5:55

Gaza were met talk about uh talk a little bit more about how you see the national mood uh in Israel right now

6:04

definitely I I think these polls are are are authentic and and reflect U uh a

6:12

certain trauma even I would say uh with regard to what happened on the 7th of October and after the 7th of October so

6:20

on the one hand uh Netanyahu is losing uh in all the popularity polls he is is

6:28

in a very bad position compared where he was few months ago um and there is a

6:34

wish to see uh the uh prisoner deal completed uh I’m not so sure that the

6:41

polls represent correctly the mood about uh what would happen after that um

6:48

because uh I think Ali I always quote Ali on this but Ali do forgive me if I’m

6:55

misquoting you here but I think you once said that the Israelis believe that he is a secret language that nobody nobody

7:03

understands uh and I think that that’s very important to listen to what politicians and journalists say in

7:10

Hebrew not in English uh in Israeli media and and what is for me very

7:16

worrying is that the main message is including those who fully support the

7:22

end the the uh completion of the prisoner exchange deal is that we can do

7:28

it now and we can always go back to the war and Hamas will give us enough

7:34

excuses or pretext to continue the bombing I I would be very worried from

7:39

describing these polls as a symatic or kind of a fundamental change in the ways

7:46

Israelis perceive either the Palestine issue or peace and so on I think we

7:51

should not be misled by this this is still a nation that or a group of so

7:59

society that still believes that it can solve its predicaments by force by

8:07

dispossession by ethnic cleansing by by genocide you won’t hear any voice in

8:12

Israel opposing the fact that already 40,000 Palestinians have been displaced

8:18

from their homes in the West Bank and uh and therefore I think from the outside

8:23

we should be careful with that this is this is very important this they do want to see of course they want want to see

8:29

all the prisoners back home that’s natural there’s no doubt about that and they don’t like netan undoubtedly but

8:38

from there to conclude that because of that you know they would like to see an end of violence or a different approach

8:46

to how to re to to deal with the the issue it’s the issue in essence I would

8:53

be very careful I think Israel is still a society that won’t change from within

8:58

and the only way of of bringing Freedom Liberation uh and decolonization is by

9:05

pressure from the outside and continue the struggle uh uh it won’t happen from

9:10

within that Point’s well taken Elan but let me push you a little bit more on it

9:17

because uh Netanyahu says he wants to go back to the war even in his press

9:22

conference with Donald Trump in Washington he was careful to allow him

9:29

self room for that um Donald Trump gave him a perfect opportunity when he said

9:35

that if Hamas doesn’t release all the remaining captives by last Saturday at

9:41

noon then all hell will break loose if netan who wanted to take that as an

9:47

opportunity to resume the war that was a perfect opportunity here was the US President telling him you know go ahead

9:54

I’ll back you and yet he didn’t do it uh m question then is not so

10:02

much or at least you’ve made clear what the desires of Israelis are they still

10:07

want to wipe the Palestinians off the map so to speak but talk about the

10:14

capability okay the fact that Netanyahu didn’t rush back to war when Trump gave

10:20

him an opportunity um what can you tell us about the state

10:28

of Israeli soci Society in a material sense the state of the army the state of the economy the morale of the people to

10:36

resume a war at any time what can you read into the situation first of all it’s I don’t

10:42

think Netanyahu can go back to war before the uh prisoner exchange is is

10:50

completed and therefore he could not use Trump’s idea of uh all hell should break

10:57

out if not all the prisoners are released and there was Saturday a week ago he couldn’t do it I mean uh that

11:04

would mean uh publicly admitting that he gave up on on the prisoners uh and that

11:12

he wouldn’t do I don’t think he would do this so he tries to navigate with his uh

11:17

allies in the government by saying okay we are continuing with this deal but

11:22

remember we can we will go back to war once it’s completed that’s that’s the

11:27

message and and therefore it’s a different message from the Trump message and then Trump himself as if you might

11:34

remember probably by advice of someone close to him said I didn’t mean all the prisoners I just meant those that were

11:41

supposed to be released in the sixth phase or something like that but far more important is the second part of

11:47

your of your question and I come back to a point that I think we also discussed in our last meeting uh almost a year ago

11:55

the Jewish Society in Israel is deeply divided between two sections and we we

12:01

have to understand that they have different perception of the reality and and the the balance of power between

12:07

this two section in many ways would impact Israeli policies in the future

12:13

you have on the one hand what I called recently the state of Judea this is the

12:19

part of the Jewish society that grew up in the Jewish settlements in the West Bank used to be quite marginal in

12:26

Israeli politics but since November 22 became a force to reckon with not only

12:33

in government not only do they hold very important ministerial positions but they

12:38

have overtaken the police they’ve overtaken the Secret Service or they are in the process of overtaking the Secret

12:45

Service the Army the one institution they haven’t yet been able to take over is the judicial institution but they’re

12:52

not far uh from that objective now the perception of these people uh uh is that

13:00

they are in the midst of a wind of opportunity to recreate the biblical Israel maybe even extended Beyond

13:07

historical Palestine to West Syria and South Lebanon uh and they’re even

13:12

waiting for for a big war with with Iran now of course they don’t have the capabilities to do this I don’t think

13:18

that they have the capabilities to do this but they are the ones I think that would determine in many ways the Israeli

13:26

policies the other group you can call it the the old state of Israel if you want

13:31

is being swallowed by by the state of Judea and um uh and the election of

13:38

trump and the rise of Neo fascist right-wing parties in the global West

13:44

and and the continued government like M Modi in in India all of this uh uh gives

13:51

it more a kind of a breath of life uh to continue to be a dominant power uh uh in

13:59

Israeli Israeli politics uh that is the state of Judea that swallows the state

14:05

of Israel the state of Israel if I can call it that way that would like to see the

14:13

Jewish Society build more on liberal Democratic Values is still one that

14:18

believes in aparte Israel I mean we have here two versions of aparte Israel um

14:24

the difference between them is first of all of how they view the Jewish life in Israel but there’s also another

14:31

difference and the difference of competence which is important to understand and it comes back to your

14:37

questions of capabilities the people who are now taking over all the positions of

14:43

power in Israel if you want all the Junctions of power uh whether it’s the Army the economy or politics come from

14:51

the more Neo Zionist rightwing Jewish society which I framed as a state of

14:56

Judea they are not very capable in Russ running anything not very competent but

15:02

they are on the March because of Donald Trump and other International

15:08

developments but not for long to my mind not for long and they are not capable of

15:13

doing it so therefore we we will have a policy that would not be uh

15:20

implemented but while it would be attempted to be implemented it can still cause quite a lot of misery a Carnage

15:29

and violence and I think that’s where we are we are in this very important

15:34

juncture where I don’t think we have any of us have the power to stop it

15:40

immediately but we have to be encouraged by the fact that it is

15:45

self-destructive it is self-destructive and and uh it depends on on very

15:52

negative forces on in the region and in internationally and therefore I think

15:58

it’s the end of a period and not the beginning of the period but it’s a very dangerous and precarious moment uh in

16:05

the history of modern Palestine so in terms of capabilities they don’t have the power

16:11

to implement the full vision but in their attempt to do this there are

16:17

ethnically cleansing people in the West Bank they will go back to violence in

16:22

Gaza they will try to keep West Syria and South Lebanon under their control so

16:28

much depends on how people would react to this how they react locally

16:34

regionally and internationally and the the more effective the reaction the

16:39

shorter the damage the the period of damage that they are inflicting will

16:48

be and I mean last time you were on and you’ve been saying this um for for years

16:55

uh you know that that this is accelerating the lapse of Zionism um and

17:02

and and also you know you just as you mentioned that Israel Society is

17:07

beginning to kind of eat itself um can you talk a little bit more about that

17:14

and and how how that is um revealing itself uh now you know 16 months after

17:22

the beginning of this genocide what the state of Zionism is and how you are

17:28

seeing it continuing to collapse um and uh and and kind of what what comes next

17:36

uh you know not not to speculate or or you know look into a crystal ball but as

17:41

someone who’s studied this for so long um and knows intimately uh you know how Zionism

17:49

reacts and and how it um how Zionism as

17:54

as an ideology um is is this self-perpetuating cycle uh of violence in itself um what

18:03

what comes next what do you think is on the horizon well well I think that we

18:09

are seeing discrete processes independent processes if you want that

18:14

have not fused yet together to that moment in history where you can say there’s a transformation there’s a

18:21

transition but I do think the question is not will these uh processes Infuse

18:28

into that dramatic moment of change the question for me is not if but when and how and I don’t know the when and I

18:35

don’t know exactly the how but I’m very sure that there’s no question of if in

18:40

fact since we last talk I think the processes I identified have only intensified let me mention some of them

18:48

one is the implosion from the social implosion from within that uh led to

18:54

mass immigration of Israeli Jews uh from what I could would call the old state of

19:00

Israel I mean the people who might have offer an alternative to the Neo Zionist

19:06

Messianic ideology that has taken over Israel since November 2022 uh many of them decide not even to

19:14

try and confront it and uh leaving uh the country in huge numbers we don’t have the full statistics but we suspect

19:22

that the number is really huge uh uh and and significant also given who the

19:27

people are are the second process is the uh the erosion in the power of the army

19:34

I mean we keep forgetting that the greatest military success of Israel are

19:40

against if at all these are military successes are against two Guerilla movements they don’t have aeroplanes

19:48

they don’t have tanks they don’t have the kind of uh support that the United

19:53

States provides Israel with endless ammunition and uh Cutting Edge

19:59

weaponry and yet even there the success is not complete uh if if you look at the Janine

20:07

camp in the West Bank Israel needs thousands of soldiers hundreds of

20:13

armored vehicles F16 and f35s to defeat a small group of

20:20

youngsters with very primitive weapons so so I think even the Israelis

20:25

themselves understand that there’s something about the inven ability of the army that is very questionable should at

20:33

any given moment something change in the neighboring Arab states for instance this whole sense of we don’t have to

20:40

worry because we have uh the army that would make sure that nothing would happen was already shattered on the 7th

20:46

of October but has not been rectified since economically the economic crisis

20:53

only deepens only deepens and relatively it’s the this year in particular is the

21:00

only year compared to all the other years that the Israeli Reliance on American Financial Aid has risen to a

21:08

portion that is unprecedented in the history of Israel I mean the the the

21:15

dependence on American Financial Aid has never been as it is now and that raises

21:22

a lot of questions even about the Trump Administration and it’s all ideas of more isolationist and so on so that’s

21:29

another process to look at uh there is the disassociation of the Jewish communities in the world from Israel

21:36

Israel is left more and more with Christian fundamentalists as its main supporters and neor right fascist

21:42

parties uh in Europe um the Palestinian uh continued especially the younger

21:48

Palestinian generation uh showing more Unity of course in Palestinian politics

21:53

itself and the Clear Vision in the future the beginning of courageous

21:59

actions by countries like Colombia in the global south I mean if you take all these things together uh you can see

22:08

that we are coming to this Moment of Truth where a project which was a European project to solve a European

22:14

problem of racism and anti-Semitism by forcing a Jewish State on the Arab world

22:20

on the Muslim world is not working with all the force that had to be invested to

22:26

make it to establish it and to to sustain it and to keep it in intact in

22:31

the future so so I think these processes are accelerated now actually uh there is

22:37

an optical with this I’m sorry it takes me a bit long to say this but I think it’s important there’s a bit of an optical illusion the election of trump

22:45

the coming elections in countries like Belgium the Netherland Austria Germany

22:51

and even unfortunately no way in 2026 which might bring back the rightwing and

22:57

also the extreme right to power creates the illusion as if Israel has nothing to

23:03

worry from the global uh Community uh but I think this is a a really an

23:10

optical illusion because these are very tactical changes in terms of long-term

23:15

historical uh processes that would not be there forever and and they may slow

23:23

down some of the processes I’m talking about but they’re not going to stop them

23:28

L last time we talked to you we talked about your book uh I think lobbying for

23:34

Zionism and uh so you’ve thought a lot about the Israel

23:40

Lobby thinking about you’re talking about right-wing parties that support Israel and often they’re anti-semitic

23:48

right-wing parties when we’re talking about Europe but also we continue to see

23:55

supposedly left-wing governments or center-left governments like uh the

24:01

labor party government in the UK you could name others that continue to

24:07

provide unconditional support for Israel that’s increasingly out of step with

24:14

popular opinion how do you explain that is it just the power of the lobby is it uh the

24:22

fear of the United States uh right now we see the Trump Administration in a

24:28

sense breaking up with Europe we saw the speech of JD Vance the vice president at

24:34

the Munich security conference in which he signaled that the US is no longer

24:40

willing to support Europe the way it has in the last 80 years since World War

24:46

II how do you explain this

24:51

continued insistence on supporting a regime whose brutality and violence and

24:57

and genocidal barbarity really can’t be concealed in any way now yeah and I it’s

25:06

an unfair question because it’s a lot to try to figure out but I want to hear what you think yeah thank you no it’s a

25:13

fair it’s a fair and important question in fact and I I was thinking about it a lot actually I think there are two there

25:20

are two ways of of answering on trying to answer these very important question

25:26

one is that if if we think if we want to think positively of the liberation of

25:32

Palestine its decolonization the end of Oppression and so on I think we we have realized by now

25:40

that the local balance of power is not very conducive for such a change that uh

25:47

you need a change in the regional balance of power and the international balance of power to push forward uh The

25:54

Liberation the decolonization and freedom and um that means that uh the

26:01

essence of Politics as it’s being um uh

26:07

uh kind of implemented uh in the world whether it’s in the global West particularly Global

26:14

West but also in the global South uh as long as it remains as it is um namely

26:21

politicians who care more about their own future than the concerns of their own societies are not willing to

26:27

collaborate internationally to deal with issues that of global nature such as global warming and so on as long as this

26:34

essence of politics remains as it is uh it’s Israel is is is winning if you want

26:41

and the Palestinians are losing every little step that challenges successfully

26:46

these kind of politics like what we have seen in the second round of elections in France for instance uh is is winning for

26:54

the Palestinians so so there is first of all this overall our overall understanding of how

27:01

politics is being made in so many parts of the world and right now the essence

27:06

of politics is not conducive uh for representing fully what the societies want including on

27:12

Palestine but not only on Palestine which is a a point of strength for us I

27:18

think because it means we can create a far wider Alliance for changing politics

27:23

that would benefit Palestine but does not have to focus only on Palestine the other way of looking at it if you

27:30

talk about the labor party the Democratic party in America Social Democratic parties in Western Europe I

27:38

think that there is a fear and this for my understanding talking a lot of people reading what they write there’s a lot of

27:44

fear about the complicity of the European left of the

27:49

democratic party of the liberal politics call it what you want the one that is not extreme right-wing and right-wing

27:57

the complicity of of that part of politics including some communist parties in allowing the colonization of

28:04

Palestine in sustaining the colonization of Palestine in in creating the reality

28:11

that we see today and they don’t want to open this Pandora box so they would

28:16

rather uh uh go by the inertia of course the lobby is there to make sure that

28:23

this kind of attitude is being maintained but I think it is as I I

28:28

tried to show in my book lobbying for Zionism if you have an effective Lobby for more than 100 years most of your

28:35

clients so to speak work by inertia you don’t even have to pressure them anymore you know I was always

28:42

thinking and I think we talked about it of Joe Biden arriving in 74 in in the

28:48

Senate sitting in the Foreign Affairs committee and seeing how the lobby destroys Fullbright and I’m sure this is

28:55

a lesson that stayed with him so there was no need for the lobby to pressure

29:00

Biden as a president it was Al already part of the DNA so so I I think that uh

29:07

this is again the end of a period that’s what I mean by an end of a period don’t

29:13

look at the present actors whether are on the left or on the right in local

29:19

politics or Regional politics or International Politics as those who would bring a change we need to look

29:28

hopefully for the beginning of a new Epoch a new period by which politics is

29:34

based on other principles more reflective on people’s concern and my

29:39

big question is all the time how can we reflect the huge Coalition we had in the

29:45

demonstrations for Palestine in the last year and a half into a powerful movement

29:51

of politics from above which I think what we have failed so far to do namely

29:56

we know exactly that that we bridged over different opinions different uh

30:01

ideological positions even to create a powerful Alliance that brought 1

30:09

million oh we we’re going to try and Rec can get him back reconnect with uh Elan

30:16

he is traveling um this week and so we’re very grateful we could have have

30:24

him on um but Nora

30:29

what do you think we we’re we’re talking about like I was talking with a friend yesterday and I was like whatever

30:36

happened to camela Harris I hate to bring that name up but it’s like has there been are you seeing any

30:43

reflection at all within no no of course it’s what I am seeing is a lot of blame

30:51

and a lot of blame primarily on Arab and Muslim Americans young people um

30:58

and and those of us who refused to vote

31:03

for uh the you know the enablers The Architects of a

31:09

genocide um so there’s a lot of blame um there is absolutely no introspection by

31:18

the Democratic party uh its supporters or um you know

31:24

anyone who uh you know thought that that bringing

31:29

Liz Cheney on to camela Harris’s you know support team and uh doubling down

31:36

on support for genocide uh was a good idea so I yeah no that’s it’s a very

31:43

important point it is yeah and and right now uh you know thinking about back oh he’s

31:51

back all right very good let’s bring him back on hi hi I’m sorry sorry I don’t

31:57

know what anyway I moved to my phone just to be on the safe side I I I I did

32:03

finish my my reply in many ways actually I just said that I would have liked to see the Coalition that created such a

32:10

huge solidarity transformed into uh part of a global movement of changing the

32:17

essence of politics which I think would benefit uh Palestine and not just

32:22

Palestine Global issues of Injustice local issues of Injustice and while we were connecting you we were we were just

32:29

talking about the lack of any reflection within say the Democratic party after

32:35

the defeat and the fact that Gaza definitely definitely played a role in it there were enough people not willing

32:42

to go out and vote for genocide and so maybe it’s a question

32:48

for another day but the the question I think many people will struggle with is

32:54

where this politics will take place is it in the streets uh is it in universities where there’s increasing

33:00

repression because the traditional political structures uh including Party politics

33:07

and electoral politics don’t seem to be capable of delivering that type of

33:13

change indeed these systems seem to be designed to prevent it and to co-opt and

33:20

diffuse any movement as we saw for example with Jeremy Corbin uh and and even with Bernie

33:27

Sanders for all his flaws he represented enough of a threat to the system that uh

33:35

they had to take Extraordinary Measures to stop him so maybe this is straying too far from

33:43

our topic but to think about where this New Politics will even take place is is

33:49

challenging well historically I I think what what we have to remember that uh

33:55

these are long processes of change and uh the movement for example in Europe

34:01

both in the 18th and 19th century from if you want politics of the street of

34:07

the of of the center of town of the Piaza into the politics of of

34:12

parliament uh changing a whole feudal system and authoritarian system it was a

34:19

long process uh and eventually what happened was that the institutions were

34:25

began to be populated by people who s things differently I think um we should

34:31

not give up on on the politics from above despite everything you said Ali

34:37

and I agree with you I I do think that um we are uh probably have to rethink a

34:45

little bit about pragmatism less of a purist position and

34:51

and uh um maybe even work under this sense of urgency when it comes to

34:56

Palestine uh and and shorten the period by which

35:02

the clear uh very exciting and and empowering politics from below that we

35:09

have seen in the case of Palestine are reflected from above I I do agree that

35:14

this is a huge challenge but I don’t see an alternative way for it uh and I don’t I

35:22

don’t for myself I do think it is it is possible uh look for example what

35:28

happened in Vietnam what happened in South Africa what happened in Algeria

35:33

and so on these are not perfect uh uh changes of politics but they are uh

35:40

effective enough to cause regimes to change to disintegrate Rogue States and

35:48

so on uh not to mention the fact and I think again that’s a topic for another

35:53

conversation we H we have to be very careful do from this associating what’s

36:00

happening in Palestine from what’s happening at least in the Eastern Mediterranean as a whole what in Arabic

36:05

we call the mashrik the the whole political system that was built after the first world war by the colonialist

36:12

powers is disintegrating not only in Israel and Palestine but also in Syria

36:18

and also Lebanon and Jordan are in a precarious moment in their history and that’s why I keep thinking that this is

36:25

the end of that period not the beginning of something new and any change in that

36:30

political structure in the way politics is being done also in places such as Syria Jordan and uh uh Lebanon and other

36:38

places is also something that would benefit Palestine Palestine has to be anyway reintegrated politically

36:45

culturally and organically into the Arab world one of the greatest success or the

36:51

attempted success of Zionism was to disassociate Palestine to take it out of

36:56

its uh uh cultural and Regional context uh and and only reintegrating it to that

37:04

region to belad and Sham and everything that was there before the first World War uh uh would enable us to change also

37:11

the balance of power because if you think about it if you think about Palestine as being part of a greater

37:17

region the Jews are a tiny minority but if you think about Palestine only in

37:23

historical Palestine you think that you are facing a formidable enemy that is

37:28

not likely to be defeated but it’s a very different perspective uh if you take the regional approach uh so in that

37:36

in that respect um it’s not just the inability to change institutional

37:41

attitudes I I really think that this has a lot to do with the essence of politics

37:48

that could be uh uh advocated also through existing institution and

37:54

structures um I can’t I don’t see many alternative to such structures uh uh we

38:01

cannot go to the Athenian democracy uh and or something like that but

38:08

definitely I mean by all means uh if the situation in Palestine is a trigger also

38:14

for thinking of a revolutionary way of how to do politics all for the better uh

38:22

but uh I even in without such dramatic Revolution and how politics is being

38:29

represented I still think that uh we are we are in the beig at the end of a

38:35

period and trans transiting into a period that even these institution will

38:40

be far more receptive to the concerns of people in general and the concerns of

38:48

people in Palestine in particular uh and this I’m saying by talking to Young

38:53

politicians in Germany in in Europe in the Arab world young Palestinians I I do think this

39:00

Young Generation understands uh that uh this is part of their future and even if they

39:08

detest organizations and structures they still need them I think to translate

39:14

great visions and ideas into real Politics on the

39:21

ground um you have a new book coming out later this year titled Israel on the

39:27

brid and the eight revolutions that could lead to decolonization and coexistence unfortunately for those

39:33

eagers those of us eager to read it we’re still going to have to wait a few months um but you do talk about uh what

39:41

you’ve been mentioning AR you know your argument that the beginning of the end of the Jewish state began in 2022 with

39:48

the election of the most right-wing government or maybe o maybe most honest government in the nation’s history can

39:55

you give us an overview of your argument and and why this why

40:01

this book now yeah first of all I I think it’s uh uh the main motive was

40:08

very curious in a way to write it I I was annoyed that when I I and others

40:14

appear in front of audiences and we talk to people and tell

40:19

them how terrible the situation of the Palestinians are we receive standing ovations and I felt very bad about it I

40:27

mean what are you what are you clapping for I mean I’m telling you how horrible things are I’m not expected to be you

40:35

know rewarded for that I understand why it happened of course I’m I’m not

40:40

blaming anyone but it it it looked to me as if one has to think is there only a

40:47

message of a pessimistic message and is this only our uh uh role to to to share

40:54

with people how bad the things are or are we also especially analysts and people who are

41:01

kind of so much engaged with it day and night or do we have also something more

41:06

positive to to offer and I wanted to offer it not just as an activist but as an

41:12

academic and that was the main drive for the book and it was not enough I I

41:18

thought it was not enough to identify the processes of disintegration and we

41:23

talked about them because disintegration as we have seen in Syria can lead to a

41:28

chaos and void and not necessarily immediately lead to something better we have some very dismal chapters of

41:35

decolonization in SE several parts in the global South but then I thought maybe I I’m trying to think and I’m

41:43

basing myself mainly on reading a lot what Young Palestinians in particular

41:48

talk about about what could make sure not only that there is a collapse

41:54

because I don’t think the collapse only depends on the Palestinians as I’ve tried to explain I think it depends on

41:59

so many other issues but how do we make sure that the collapse uh is turning to

42:04

something positive that’s the first question and secondly will anybody listen to me if I want to talk about it

42:11

now people say come on Elan there’s no need you’re hallucinating what’s the point of talking about how to implement

42:18

the right of return what’s the point of talking what would be the future of the Jews in a a decolonized Palestine what

42:26

would happen to the settl uh in the West Bank uh uh and so on and

42:33

and I thought this is this is the time to talk about it and I understand that people want to talk about what to do

42:40

tomorrow or or the next day to stop the genocide but I think this is being done

42:45

and and and and and and I don’t have much to contribute to this people are incredible in what they have done so far

42:53

whether they are students trade unionist people from all walks of life life are not sitting at home and allowing the

42:59

genocide to continue they are doing whatever they can but I think it’s also

43:05

important to talk about the day after as a counter discourse that the discourse

43:11

that the governments are offering us because they what they are offering us is a perpetuation of the situation at

43:18

best if not making it even worse and that’s why I thought it’s good to think

43:23

together of not just how things collapse but what what replaces them and talk

43:29

about it not just in in a very emotional you know kind of uh uh way which is

43:34

important but also in a kind of an professional way how does it look like

43:41

what what are the options and I tried to connect in the book To What I Hear mainly from from Palestinian friends and

43:48

Scholars but also from historical examples and so on and this is of course not something I I’m imposing on anyone

43:56

but I do uh show the kind of positive development that can both accelerate the

44:03

decolonization but also promise that we move with it to a different kind of

44:09

vision and that’s why the E Revolution that I offer in this book is a fictional

44:14

one and I think which is missing I’m imagining Palestine in 2048 that’s the E

44:21

Revolution that’s my own eigh Revolution but of course it has to be done by many

44:26

others how does Palestine look in 2048 uh if I the processes I detect

44:33

mature and if the many revolutions that should support it become uh uh true and

44:41

and and I think this an important conversation to be had not what is the future of Palestine and the Palestinians

44:48

also what is the future of the Jews in Israel it’s a different perspective that

44:54

challenges I think effectively the discourse and the so-called discourse on

44:59

peace what I call the peace hemony that the Americans have been leading in the last 50 years I have two questions but

45:08

the first one is uh May you’re still working on the book and you don’t want

45:13

to give everything away but give us a clue or give us one thing that you would

45:18

imagine in 2048 which of course should be a century from the neba yeah what’s

45:26

give us some idea of your vision yeah well I I’ll give you an idea I I think

45:32

this in 2048 is the the Year by which uh two or three things have come to

45:39

fruition and work together to a better transformation one is the end of the

45:45

process of changing the Palestinian national movements structure and organization in a way that reflects

45:53

a unified uh uh um movement of Liberation

45:58

that overcame most of the fragmentation and disunity and conveys a very clear vision

46:06

for the future that’s one one thing that would happen by 2048 to my mind the

46:12

second one is that with the help of that change already practical processes of

46:21

Return of restorative justice of transitional Justice are

46:27

already being enacted inside historical Palestine uh whether it is rebuilding a

46:34

National Assembly whether it is a a re return actual return of people to where

46:41

they can return and building mechanism of compensation for those who don’t want

46:47

to return or can return uh proper negotiations on Collective identities

46:55

within a much larger context of dialogue of what our Collective identities in the mushrik in the Eastern Mediterranean Al

47:02

together namely talking about the Jewish collectivity not as a national collectivity but as an

47:09

ethnocultural collectivity um with and I’m very honest I think quite a lot of Jews by 2048

47:16

would leave Palestine I’m not trying to you know I’m not beautifying anything I

47:21

have there I will just give you one nugget out of it there is a fictional

47:27

conversation between the person who writes about 2048 and his children who

47:34

ask him why don’t you try to persuade the Jews to stay be because they’re

47:40

living in great numbers they don’t want to live in a non- aparte state and I my

47:45

answer to them is I can’t if if they are afraid to live in a state based on

47:51

equality it means that they haven’t overcome the racism and there’s nothing I can do about

47:57

so these are the kinds of things that I’m trying to to develop I think that it’s very known mechanisms of

48:05

transition uh that have been attempted elsewhere perfected I think for the case of Palestine made even better I’m not

48:13

trying to shy from teasing problems and other issues I’m not trying it’s not a

48:18

walk in in a Rosen Garden it’s not a pharmaceutical uh a process but to my

48:24

man it’s it’s it’s a possible one and I still think that the Palestinian impulse

48:29

is to go back to normal natural life rather than dealing all the time with revenge or anything it’s not retribution

48:37

it’s restitution uh and I try to to to fill this these ideas with concrete uh

48:45

descriptions of occurrences in private lives of people to try and show uh uh to

48:51

allow people to imagine things that can be possible uh

48:57

2048 but as you and you rightly say I chose 2048 not because I have a crystal

49:02

ball because I thought about it’s enough is enough isn’t it I thought that 100 Years of nakba is enough uh and so that

49:11

part is a bit of wishful thinking but also based on how long processes like

49:18

this in history have taken place uh to mature how has taken time to

49:25

mature m well it’s a book that I’m really looking forward to and it’s not scheduled to

49:32

come out until September so we have uh some time to wait but uh that will be

49:38

more than enough time for us to have you back and talk about it and I think this

49:43

is an important conversation and it’s a hard one to have because even before

49:49

this genocide it’s a fine line between having a conversation about the future and

49:58

being accused of being naive or overlooking the difficulties and I I don’t think you are someone who has any

50:05

Illusions about the difficulties and and nor do I when I’ve also tried to engage in this discussion but to try to put

50:12

forward something that is more hopeful we we know what we want to escape from

50:18

we know the horror and the hell we want to escape from but do we dare to

50:24

articulate the future we want to to move towards and I think it’s often easier

50:29

not to do that because the present is so urgent so this is a really

50:36

uh challenging and wonderful discussion Elan and um as usual you’re thinking

50:42

ahead of other people so um I just want to thank you for coming and sharing your

50:47

thoughts with us and let’s have you back when the book comes out if not earlier to to explore those ideas in Greater

50:54

depth and good luck with your travels and thank you again for making time with us you’re always so generous thank you

51:01

so much thank you so much Ali and Nora and everyone on the staff it’s as always been a pleasure to be with you and I

51:09

looking forward very much to meeting you again in this forum and other forums

51:15

thank you so much thank you thank you

51:25

[Music]

oooooo

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

ooo

How the Gaza genocide will lead to Israel’s collapse, with Shir Hever

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly7qO9fGYZA)

More than eight months into this genocide, Israel is losing the war between its army and the resistance on the ground.

Israel’s own economy is in shambles, as more and more Israelis leave abroad for good and as its high-tech sector collapses.

“I think that what we’re seeing is, first of all, that this Israeli military doctrine has flown out the window,” political economist Shir Hever tells us on The Electronic Intifada Podcast.

“There is no doctrine right now – what we have is a collapse of Israeli society. It is a social collapse. It’s also psychological collapse, [and] it has to do with the fact that Israelis have lost connection with reality,” he adds.

Hever is the military embargo coordinator for the Palestinian Boycott Divestment and Sanctions National Committee (BNC) and works on its #ShutDownNation campaign.

Hever, who lives in Germany, is the author of The Privatization of Israeli Security and The Political Economy of Israel’s Occupation.

Read more: https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/…

Transkripzioa:

0:00

welcome back to the electronic Ina podcast I’m Nora baros Friedman with Alia bonima as we enter the ninth month

0:07

of Israel’s genocide in Gaza with no end in sight we wanted to take a look at Israel’s insistence of maintaining a war

0:15

of attrition while its own economy is in shambles as more and more Israelis leave

0:21

abroad for good and as its high-tech sector collapses we’re joined today by

0:26

sheer he sheer is a political Economist and is the military embargo coordinator for the Palestinian boycott divestment

0:33

and sanctions National Committee the BNC he is the author of The privatization of

0:39

Israeli security and the political economy of Israel’s occupation and comes

0:44

to us today from Germany Shear welcome back to the electronic andata podcast

0:49

thanks for having me it’s good to be here again good to see hi Shear it’s really good to talk to you again Sher

0:57

Palestinians in Gaza are victims of an ongoing genocide being perpetrated by

1:02

Israel with broad support of the Israeli Jewish public at the same time there is

1:08

a military war between the Israeli Army and the resistance on the ground which Israel appears to be

1:14

losing Israel’s military Doctrine has always been to fight short Wars on the

1:20

enemy’s territory this is because it was thought that Israel as a small country

1:25

could not sustain long-term military mobilization this has now been its longest

1:32

mobilization and its longest war ever and before we get into some of the

1:37

details although you’re in Germany give us your sense of how the Israeli public

1:43

is fairing right now what are the main bases of support for this genocide and

1:48

this war and is the Israeli public able to cope with the effects of the war both

1:54

milit in terms of military casualties as well as other psychological and social

2:01

impact well you’ve gotten right into the heart of it so I I don’t think I can

2:07

just answer all of this in in one go but let’s try to break it down and and uh attack it from different directions I

2:15

think that um what we’re seeing is uh first of all um that that this Israeli

2:21

military Doctrine has is flown out the window there’s no there’s no uh Doctrine

2:27

right now what we have is a collapse of Israeli Society it is a social

2:33

collapse it’s also psychological collapse it has to do with the fact that Israelis have lost connection with

2:40

reality even um media that used to be more or less reliable heart’s newspaper

2:46

has always been a Zionist venue but it was a sort of a liberal venue which insisted on on showing different

2:52

opinions but they have been publishing fake news for the last nine months absolutely so so Israeli

3:00

for example think that South Africa didn’t accuse Israel of

3:06

genocide because in order to know this very simple fact that anyone can find out in in one minute um you need to to

3:14

read English and and Israelis even those who do read English they prefer not to

3:19

um so I think you’ve started with with talking about the military side of things obviously Israel has a very a

3:28

much stronger military a lot of weapons a lot of international support for its Armed Forces but all that doesn’t matter

3:35

if it’s the side which is fighting with its eyes closed H so that’s the point that

3:41

they’re they’re killing it discriminately but more than this this is not really a war which is driven by

3:48

strategy with clear goals this is a pure unadulterated Act of

3:54

Vengeance and one thing that Israelis know every Israeli knows is that revenge

4:01

is uh has no chance of succeeding and and that is something in

4:06

in the context of genocide I cannot stress this enough because Israelis I mean Jewish Israelis Jewish

4:14

Israelis whose whose families came from Europe mostly uh they certainly know a thing or two about genocide and those um

4:20

stories go in run in the families in my family um so of course regardless of

4:29

what uh um Jews think about about Germans about about Nazis H they also know that if

4:37

they had attempted to exact Vengeance against Germans for the Holocaust then

4:42

there would have never been a state of Israel there would never been the Zionist movement would never have succeeded to achieve what it did achieve

4:50

so now Israelis are talking about Zionism in the past tense this is

4:56

something that has become mainstream in in Israel even right-wing Israelis that

5:01

support the genocide but they don’t support the genocide because they think it will achieve something they support

5:07

the genocide because they think the story is over and now there’s no point

5:12

of of planning for the future do you think that applies to to uh people like

5:20

uh itamar Ben and bzm who are going to conferences to talk about settlements in

5:28

Gaza they think it’s over no no it does not apply to them they represent 50% 15% of the Jewish

5:35

population of Israel which is H the national Orthodox um religious movement

5:42

which is highly Messianic they still believe in in their heart of hearts that God will somehow save them at some point

5:49

so for them it doesn’t matter that Israel is losing the war because this is only God testing them and there will be

5:54

some kind of of change and and they’re saying things like we don’t need weapons from the United States States we don’t

6:00

care if Biden stops the weapons because uh we will win by the grace of God uh

6:06

but these 15% I mean it it’s it’s less than 15% the 15% are the National

6:11

Orthodox Jews but not all national Orthodox je Jews are are as fanatic and

6:17

and Messianic as benir and smotrich um and and in fact there are also among

6:22

that this group of people those who say well there is a limit to irrational

6:27

belief in in divine intervention um and and um there is

6:33

still maybe some tiny hope of of saving the state of Israel by taking some kind

6:39

of rational action uh but those are those voices are ignored and and uh but

6:45

the other 85% of Jews in Israel H who who listen to smri and benir and and

6:52

they listen to what they’re saying they say well if this is what the government is saying remember the I mean I don’t if

6:59

all our viewers and listeners are aware that benville is the Israeli minister of National Security and that salic is the

7:07

Minister of Finance so they are in very key positions in the government H and without them the government does not

7:13

have a majority so they have a lot of power and if these people are in power and if they are willing to sacrifice

7:20

everything and just wait for divine intervention we better pack our bags we better get out of here and that’s what we’re actually

7:26

seeing can you talk a little bit more about that um the phrase Zionism is being talked about in the in the past

7:32

tense um really jumped out at me uh can you talk about what what it what it

7:39

looks like now like as the political ideology um what do you mean by Zionism in the past

7:46

tense um well I I hope we we’re also going to talk more about economic things

7:51

today not so much just the ideological stuff although that that’s interesting too but uh maybe not the most uh the

7:59

best contribution that I can make to this conversation but uh um I I do think that there is a generational thing

8:06

because Zionism means different things to different people and especially when we’re talking about the generation of my

8:11

parents let’s say the generation that remembers the War of 1973 which started

8:16

on October 6 1973 50 years in one day before the October 7 attack H which was

8:23

um a trauma for the Israeli society and it created a crisis about 3,000 Israelis

8:30

were killed in that war um and um so so you know um this is something that has

8:37

shaped Israeli Society very deeply and their understanding of what Zionism means is that if you believe in the

8:44

future and if you think about plans of how to recover from a crisis H then it

8:49

is possible H to to um Salvage the settler colony and to salvage the

8:55

apartheid system and to rebuild it even from a deep crisis H

9:01

now now we are saying seeing the same people of that generation which are

9:07

saying uh well there without a strategy and without a plan there is not going to

9:12

be any rebuilding of the settler Colony then it’s it’s over H but they’re not

9:17

the generation which is calling the shots anymore so most of these people are are

9:23

pensioners uh and and by the way these are also the people that we see uh in demonstrations so when when Western

9:30

media likes to say look at the vibrant Democratic forces in Israel which are opposing netan and going to

9:35

demonstrations these are people in their mid 70s uh so um the the younger

9:42

generation this is a third generation of settler colonists which have been raised

9:49

to believe that they have all these privileges because they were destined to

9:54

have them and they don’t have to fight for them any anymore and this is just something that they’re entitled to and

10:00

that mindset is completely incompatible with the crisis netan is always cap capitulated

10:07

on that kind of on this generational Thinking by saying why should we make sacrifices why should we pay high taxes

10:15

or or tighten the belt in times of Crisis we should just take whatever we can we should just get whatever we want

10:22

and this also means that now uh the soldiers are acting without any

10:27

discipline soldiers are just running a mock H but also uh that that nobody believes that

10:35

the government has any plan and uh and that certainly contributes to the sense of of

10:42

Despair Sher we’re going to shift now to the economic front which is your

10:47

expertise but your insights are so fascinating so I want to just put one

10:53

more thing to you it seems to me that when you talk about that Spirit of

10:59

sacrifice you know for Palestinians of course every Israeli leader from the

11:05

beginning of Zionism is is a war criminal by the virtue of the the acts

11:11

they’ve committed so whether you take a benorian or a yak Rabin or Shimon Perez

11:18

these were the the founding generation of Israel the prime ministers even if we

11:26

say these were war criminals and uh committed ethnic cleansing had genocidal

11:32

intent towards the Palestinians you can say I mean even take a monster like Ariel Sheron who who

11:40

perpetrated the the invasion of Lebanon in 1982 the saan shatila massacres do

11:47

you think it’s true to say that those that generation were committed to

11:54

something bigger than themselves in a way that the current generation are not I I mean they had a SP they had a spirit

12:02

that created this this uh this state is

12:07

that a distinction that’s worth making and is it significant in terms of the

12:12

future of this this uh this entity yeah well first of all H it’s not

12:18

just Palestinians that consider these people to be war criminals they are war criminals this is a fact H they they

12:24

have committed war crimes H but I do agree with you that there is a difference between the benuron chons

12:33

rabins pises of of the past and the benv and smotes um or a gallant of of the

12:41

present H because those of the past they they um perpetrated the nakba ethnic

12:49

cleansing they they hoped that this would be a sustainable ethnic cleansing I’m sure you know the the famous quote

12:55

by benon about the the the old will die and young will forget um but uh the

13:03

which which is not realistic but it was a plan at least it was a hope H for for him and and for his generation and also

13:11

for the generation of of Rabin who who orchestrated the whole Oso agreements as a way to create a sustainable ongoing

13:18

occupation and apartheid system with the facade of a of a Jewish majority in part of the country while the other part is

13:25

indirectly controlled rather than directly controlled this this was complex strategy a multi-layered

13:31

strategy that is the difference because they understood there need to be some

13:36

compromises and uh therefore they also Shi away from committing genocide and

13:42

you’re saying genocidal intent of course there’s a famous quote byin where he said that he wished the Gaza Strip Would

13:48

S sink into the sea so his his dreams were genocidal dreams but um he had the

13:54

military power to kill um thousands or tens of thousands Palestinians if he

14:00

wanted to uh but he also understood that any country that commits genocide or any

14:05

state that commits genocide collapses there in fact in in

14:11

recent history I’m not talking now about the um genocides of of North America or

14:16

the or Australia but but in in modern times starting from the middle of the 20th century with the Nazi regime um

14:24

every regime that committed genocide came to an end uh very very very shortly afterwards

14:30

very shortly afterwards um so there is no Hutu regime in Rwanda anymore the

14:36

milosovic regime in Serbia has come to an end um and uh and and this is

14:43

something that Israelis know of course so so they thought about what kind of

14:48

war crimes they can get away with in a sustainable way and once a red line has

14:53

been crossed there’s no going back from it well let’s talk a little bit about

14:59

what that collapse looks like right now um you are a you know a researcher in

15:06

the political economy of Israel um as someone who reads Hebrew language business sections of the newspaper um

15:13

what metric are you using to assess the viability of Israel’s internal economic

15:20

structure paint us a picture of what of what the state looks like right

15:25

now right um so um I I think what when we’re shifting gear right now in in the

15:32

conversation maybe it’s it’s worthwhile to acknowledge that H this conversation about about the collapse of the Israeli

15:38

economy when we’re talking about um an economic structure which is an

15:43

exploitative and in a unequal structure of apartheid when this is falling apart

15:49

this is a good thing of course and we’re celebrating that uh but it’s very difficult to celebrate in time of

15:55

genocide yeah so let me just take you a little bit back to when we started to talk about this because it didn’t start

16:01

in October it started in January 23 uh about a year and a half ago with the new

16:07

Israeli government coming into Power this farri Messianic government without a plan and already at that moment a lot

16:14

of Israelis realize that the economic collapse is imminent and unavoidable

16:19

with a government that is not willing to make any compromises strategies plans for the Futures Ben and smwi hoping for

16:26

divine intervention so at that moment H the BDS movement came up with the slogan um from shut from startup Nation

16:34

to shutdown nation and we started to list facts numbers to show what’s

16:41

happening to the Israeli debt what’s happening H to the um International

16:47

Investment in the Israeli Hightech sector and in other sectors as well what is happening to Young educated Israelis

16:54

who are leaving the country uh there’s a famous um picture of Israelis lining up

17:00

a through a very very long Street it was a line of of almost a kilometer long lining up to the ministry of the

17:07

Interior because they were trying to get their passports so they can leave the country H that’s a picture that is from

17:15

ER March so of 23 right so before the war H

17:21

and um they already senior Israeli economists predicting a serious collapse

17:28

some is trust funds and and and high-tech um um

17:34

startups those kind of companies were already making plans about of leaving the judicial over overhaul that was

17:41

already promoted by the by the government H was basically um making

17:47

Israel incompatible with the global capitalist Market if you don’t have strong courts that you can trust to

17:55

speak up against the government then you can never Sue um your the government in in whatever

18:03

country you work in it in when it treats you unfairly so we all know that the

18:09

Israeli government thinks that they they can Force International corporations to

18:15

invest in the um illegal settlements for example and to um or or to um open

18:23

branches in illegal setl things like that so when an international corporation like car for example thought

18:30

let’s open some branches in Israel because the government is going to give us heavy subsidies but we don’t want to

18:37

open in the West Bank settlements because then H it would be it it would

18:43

would give us some some legal problems um but the Israeli government says well

18:48

we’re going to make them uh so you have to to count on the courts of the on the

18:53

Israeli courts to defend you a Judicial overhaul means you cannot count on the courts because they picked by the

18:59

government and they’re going to be the same settlers who are sitting in the government who are going to be the judges in the case so don’t make an

19:06

investment in a country that doesn’t follow the cap the the capitalist rules

19:11

that the rest of the world is following um so that was already the case that was already the the investors of karur were

19:19

were regretting deeply their mistake in in opening branches in Israel um and uh and started to suffer

19:26

from widespread boycott in Europe Europe for their miscalculation um and they were not

19:33

smart enough to to leave right away uh so that’s something that uh was already

19:39

happening and then something amazing happened which I did not believe my eyes

19:44

when I saw the demonstrators in Tel Aviv against the Israeli government against judicial overhaul saying basically the

19:51

same thing about the judicial overhaul is an economic damage to Israel you know

19:56

of trying to preserve their the aparte system um and they held up a sign that

20:02

was so big you had to um take photos of it with a drone from above because it

20:07

was too big to see on the ground and the sign said from startup Nation to shutdown Nation they just took the

20:15

slogan from BDS and and and printed it on their sign

20:20

and walked down the streets of Tel Aviv with it um that was a very interesting moment I think because it showed that

20:27

Israeli Society starting to maybe not intentionally but on some level see that this is an unsustainable

20:37

situation um and um so now I think we when we’re talking

20:43

about um you mentioned the the the Israeli um media the the Hebrew press that I’m

20:49

reading every day H and um and I can’t even read everything I have many many

20:56

friends uh who also speak Hebrew and are sending me these articles because they’re also trying to

21:03

draw Hope from the collapse of the Israeli economy they believe as I do

21:08

that once the economy H doesn’t function anymore the Army cannot function anymore and the genocide will have to

21:14

stop talk talk talk about that I mean I’m gonna ask you about it from two

21:21

perspectives um the perspective of an ordinary Israeli whatever an ordinary

21:27

Israeli is uh living in Tel Aviv let’s say which I

21:32

mean let’s face it the vast majority of the Israeli Jewish population is

21:38

concentrated in and around Tel Aviv so in Tel Aviv are one of the

21:43

suburbs uh I want to ask you what would they perceive in their day-to-day life

21:50

in terms of economic collapse and on the other side of this I want to ask you for

21:57

some of those big headlines in terms of for example when we were preparing for this

22:04

discussion you told us about um the large amount of investment shifting

22:10

abroad um that uh uh you know those

22:16

kinds of big indicators give us a sense of what this looks like on that very micro level and on a macro level right I

22:25

think the micro level is more important the macro level there are these amazing headlines like the one that I mentioned

22:31

to you before which is that half a trillion shekels new new Israeli shekels in local Investments of Israelis

22:39

so people saving for their pension they shifted them from investing domestically

22:44

to shiting to to investing abroad so now the majority of Israeli investment funds

22:53

and the majority of the funds that they have are invested abroad so Israelis don’t believe in their own economy

22:59

so this is a big headline and and there are so many of them and if I just go over the numbers and talk about the the

23:05

credit rating reduction and talk about um the collapse about more than 90% in

23:11

in foreign investment in Israel’s Hightech sector and uh the vast amount

23:16

of of companies that are going bankrupt these numbers are are um

23:23

impressive but still they’re not the big story because the big story in the end is what people believe H their economic

23:31

crisis is something that happens to a lot of countries H we’ve seen Greece in

23:37

2007 going through a serious economic crisis we’ve seen Argentina in 2000

23:42

these kinds of Crisis which which are really very difficult and and affect people

23:48

very deeply but the the difference is that in Greece or in Argentina nobody

23:54

said okay well this country or this state will not not exist anymore anymore we should think about a different state

24:00

now or or this the economy is going to just be over well maybe there’s going to

24:05

be a new currency maybe there’s going to be a new policy maybe there’s going to be a tough period of time and then some

24:11

recovery but H when we’re talking about what individuals are thinking if they don’t believe in a in a future if they

24:20

see this as the end then the the capitalist logic is such that there is

24:25

no future people do not invest if they think there is no future uh instead they they take out

24:32

their money and leave H and and this is a self-fulfilling prophecy so you asked me

24:38

about ordinary Israelis let’s put it this way um and this this was

24:44

information that was actually difficult for me to get because uh some of my

24:49

friends uh were were so affected by the events uh that uh they it seemed like

24:57

they lost their and I was also questioning my own sanity at some point like if they really

25:02

believe that this is what’s happening and they think that um that the the

25:09

children that are being murdered in Gaza are somehow to blame for their own deaths and and they’re able to somehow

25:16

uh explain this to themselves then how can I even speak to these people anymore

25:21

um and I am very privileged that in my family my family members are or at least

25:27

the close family members that I’m in contact with think like I do so that there are no indication of what ordinary

25:33

Israelis think um but I can say that um after my my partner her family is is

25:41

let’s say more mainstream in their thinking and she was arrested in Berlin because she was carrying a sign that

25:47

said U another Jew for free Palestine H Germany is not a very hospitable place

25:53

for protests for Palestine these days um but um her the the picture of her

25:59

holding the sign became viral and her parents saw it and that caused a really

26:05

difficult time in the family and it took months until I was even able to speak to them and asked them these questions that

26:11

you’re now asking me how is this affecting them how do they think and I was really um shocked by their answers

26:18

not because they were they were not like benm they were not gangho about about

26:23

the genocide they were on some level even acknowledging the genocide they said uh well um the the the whole world

26:32

hates us and and and maybe we deserve it this this was a statement that that I

26:37

did not expect to hear from zionists where they say we deserve it um and uh

26:43

and so they also not thinking about a viable future and I asked them how is

26:50

this affecting them in their daily lives so of course everything is very expensive um prices are are out of

26:56

control um and and this is also BEC just simply because the econom is not functioning there’s a lot of a hidden

27:04

unemployment because there are a lot of people who lost their jobs but um they’re not registering to receive

27:11

unemployment benefits because they’re in the military they’re doing reserve duty

27:16

um so they said uh you know it’s impossible to get a doctor’s appointment uh you you have to wait for

27:22

months uh more than twice as long for for just uh whatever doctor appointment

27:28

you may need and I asked them is this because all the doctors are are in the military doing reserve duty and they

27:34

said well this was in the beginning in the couple of in the first months there a lot of doctors were recruited for

27:39

reserve duty now that’s not the case now they just left the country so they they see it around them

27:48

um and um you know in in May uh there’s

27:53

always the the Israeli Independence Day that coincides with nakba day um and the

27:58

Israelis um usually display nationalism

28:03

in the most disgusting way possible that that you can imagine um and cover the whole

28:10

country with Israeli Flags to do show their dominance assert their dominance of the of the land that they conquered

28:17

and the people that they conquered um this year they didn’t put up any Flags

28:23

almost no Flags so they don’t feel Victorious they don’t feel

28:29

like this is uh um some something that that can be recovered from and so I

28:35

think more interesting than the fact that um you have these numbers you know collapse in investment and uh people

28:43

taking out their money and leaving the country and droves more interesting is the editorial in’s newspaper on Israeli

28:49

Independence Day which said will Israel even get to celebrate any more

28:56

Independence days in the future and this is very interesting because the Hebrew version of the of the editorial

29:02

was different than the English version in the English version they they took it back a notch and they said um only will

29:10

Israel celebrate any more Independence days only if we get rid of NATO as if that matters yeah but but to try to give

29:17

some hope to their to their English readers but um but in Hebrew they didn’t

29:22

qualify it they just said you know and they quoted Netanyahu himself

29:29

H this is a quote from from 2017 when I heard Netanyahu say this in 2017 he said

29:35

it was hanuka celebrations in 2017 in the winter where Hanukah is all about this

29:43

um mythological story about the hasai kingdom and Netanyahu said you know the

29:48

hasai kingdom was a Jewish state in in a way which lasted 80 years and we should

29:55

last more than 80 years um but but when I when I saw this

30:00

and everyone who saw this knows that Netanyahu never tells the truth he never says what he believes if he thinks

30:06

Israel will last more than 80 years uh he wouldn’t say that so if he says it

30:11

will it means he thinks 80 years is the maximum so now it’s 76 so let let me

30:18

again we these insights are so fascinating and there’s just a couple of

30:25

things listening to the the question it raises now one you talked at a certain point

30:33

about um even before October 7th but you know in the context of the protests

30:39

against the judicial reform and so on that there was already a loss of confidence both International and uh

30:48

internal internationally we saw a lot of you know so-called friends of Israel worrying about its liberal Democratic

30:55

status and so that’s why they were opposed ing the the the judicial reform

31:01

but internally you talk about Israelis lining up to get passports and of course

31:07

many Israelis are entitled to Second passports because they came from other countries although a large number aren’t

31:15

or it’s not practical uh because they came from countries uh where they um

31:21

maybe can’t go back or wouldn’t want to go back uh but certainly there’s a large

31:26

number with um you know roots in Europe uh in uh in North America and so on

31:33

where they either already have second passports or they can apply for them uh

31:39

you can see that you know in many countries around the world people might like to have a second passport as an

31:45

insurance policy let’s say that doesn’t mean you’re going to uh take it doesn’t

31:52

mean you’re going to actually leave the country but perhaps there comes a point

31:58

a Tipping Point where you where people do actually start leaving um so my question is and you you

32:05

gave the example of the doctors in a sense that’s anecdotal I mean that doesn’t mean it’s

32:12

not true but how can we get a sense of the bigger picture because when I looked

32:19

the last time a few I think it was the last time I checked was maybe a few

32:24

weeks ago I couldn’t you know every year Israel uh

32:29

publishes population statistics it publishes numbers for what it calls alah

32:35

which is the arrival of new Jewish colonists from around the world um I

32:40

believe they publish or maybe they don’t but people can read it into the statistics the number of Israeli Jews

32:47

who leave the country and don’t return and as I say the last time I checked the

32:53

numbers I found were from July of 2023 so prior to October

32:58

uh 7th what are the indicators or the

33:03

evidence that you’ve been able to see about whether this sort of loss of

33:10

confidence is actually turning into some kind of Exodus and if so among what

33:16

sectors of the Israeli population let me quickly just start by

33:21

by mentioning what you said about the internal criticism and the the foreign criticism or or worry about the Israeli

33:29

economy um in fact there is unfortunately a kind of conspiracy of

33:34

Silence between the Big H Financial um newspapers in the world which are anyway

33:40

very right-wing almost by by Nature the financial times the Wall Street Journal um which simply refused to report about

33:47

the collapse of the Israeli economy in the high-tech sector when it happened before October 7 and in doing that they

33:54

actually um reneged on their duty to their own readers who buy these newspapers because they’re thinking

34:00

about how to invest U wisely and they would have not known what a dangerous

34:06

investment it is and not that I care very much about billionaires who who make bad Investments and and lose their

34:12

money that’s fine but of course it’s not just billionaires it’s also the Pension funds of of Ordinary People which bad

34:19

Investments is affecting them H so uh yeah but but just just a side comment

34:25

there getting back to your point about The Exodus the Israelis leaving there is always been a problem because to to

34:33

measure the statistics if Israelis are um I mean I’m I’m in Germany right now

34:39

Germany reported a peak number of Israelis asking to to start the process

34:46

of of naturalization of of getting a German passport in Germany in the past

34:51

year compared to like by a factor of 10 more than in any other year but doesn’t

34:58

mean that they would be registered by the Israeli statistics as having left

35:03

because if somebody just goes out through the airport that doesn’t mean that they’re coming back you can of course um try to measure how many people

35:11

are leaving and coming in at any given moment to see where what’s the movement of people H and there was actually an

35:18

article that was published in November so after October 7 byit in the tourism

35:25

sector of the newspaper so not a very political part of the newspaper where they were just saying by the way we did

35:31

a calculation of how many people are have exited through the airport how many have comeing have come in and the net

35:38

loss is a quarter of a million people the net loss is a quarter of a

35:43

million people so while the the headlines were saying Jews from all over the world are gathering in Israel to

35:49

fight against the the common enemy and to support the the Jewish State um those

35:55

numbers were completely bogus and the actual facts were were exactly the

36:00

opposite uh but once this article was was published and H of course people who

36:07

noticed it started quoting from it they they stopped publishing this information they they kept it quiet and they’re

36:13

still keeping quiet and I’ve heard a talk by John mimer recently professor John mimer from the US who said that by

36:20

now the number is half a million Israelis who left uh so double um but uh

36:27

I I’m not able to confirm that it’s it’s not easy to to get good estimates of course there um if if you go to Cyprus

36:35

for example Cyprus is is very close to to Israel so it’s qu it’s quite cheap

36:41

and practical for whole families to to move there and there is a town where you hear more Hebrew than Greek because so

36:49

many people have have moved there and I actually met some some Israelis in Athens and in other places

36:57

in in Europe which initially who initially went to Cyprus and they felt

37:03

not safe in this community of um

37:09

escaping Israelis because those escaping Israelis who escaped mainly for economic

37:14

reasons and for fear uh were not uh willing to criticize the genocide and

37:21

were threatening uh the more let’s say um moral and and human Israelis that

37:29

that were also coming with them so they sought to to further go away from those

37:36

communities and seek safety somewhere um so this is something that um that is

37:42

certainly um felt outside of Israel but in Israel they don’t want to talk about it

37:50

I I didn’t check they just had their so-called Independence Day in in May and

37:56

uh I don’t remember seeing traditionally every year just before independence day

38:03

the Israeli National statistics organization publishes sort of a press release on the

38:11

population statistics did did not Central Bure of Statistics they they publish the number of citizens and they

38:17

publish the number of residents yeah if you see a gap between these two that’s a bad sign because uh after five years H

38:25

citizens lose their residency Israeli citizens who live abroad lose their residency but only after five

38:31

years so if we’re talking about people who left in the last couple of months or in the last year H they wouldn’t have

38:36

lost their residency they would be when you say lost their residency that doesn’t mean they lose their right to

38:43

live in Israel it means they lose their their status in the statistics as a resident they would then be counted as

38:50

something else it it has some significance in terms of their social benefits uh National Insurance that sort

38:56

of thing but they have their citizenship so they can return at anytime I see I understand just just to be clear about

39:03

that and then I know Nora why don’t you go ahead Nora I I I can I have many

39:09

questions for you she but we we also some topics that we want to want to go

39:14

through so oh yeah I wanted to ask about um the civilian infrastructure and what

39:22

that looks like uh right now with you know uh 10 T of thousands of reservists

39:30

um being pulled from the labor force uh you know we’re talking School teachers

39:35

and engineers and plumbers and uh you know being uh put into tanks um as well

39:44

as the re revocation of um of work permits of Palestinians from the

39:50

occupied West Bank to work uh across the green line um what does what does the the the kind

39:58

of day-to-day infrastructure and and political economy look like right now um

40:05

what are the key flash points you’re looking at in terms of trying to understand um this collapsing

40:13

economy right well the the loss of these soldiers to the to the workforce is not

40:20

I mean this is it is significant it is significant uh but I think the way that it’s discussed in Israeli discourse it’s

40:27

not so so much the loss of of of the workforce but more about um families uh

40:32

trying to to deal with the fact that um uh one of the family members usually uh

40:38

the man is um is absent for for so long that they don’t see their children

40:44

anymore and the government has also made it ordered that the soldiers will not

40:49

have contact with their families back home this is very unusual especially for such a long War H and uh I mean my dad

40:58

who fought in the War of 73 told me that uh of course every evening they would line up by the pay

41:04

phone a landline and so they can call their parents and tell them they’re still alive uh but um but the the

41:12

soldiers are ordered not to have contact with civilians and at first I thought this is because they don’t want a

41:20

sensitive military information to leak outside of Gaza or for example evidence

41:25

of the genocide to leak outside of Gaza but later it turned out that what they really don’t want is the soldiers to

41:31

hear what’s happening back home because when they do they lose the will to fight

41:37

and they lose H the sense of purpose and that causes trauma PTSD and things like

41:42

that but but this is not the bigger story here you’re talking about the infrastructure um Israeli economists

41:50

keep mentioning the fact that Israel became smaller in the sense that so many people have left um their homes um some

41:59

of the homes were destroyed some are just not safe um either in the area

42:04

around the Gaza Strip or in the north close to Lebanon uh so the number of

42:10

people who have evacuated from these areas is more than double the number of soldiers that were recruited for the

42:16

military so that’s the bigger number there and that means people who have have moved away from the jobs as well

42:24

they don’t have a place to stay so the government is housing them in hotels because the tourism industry is anyway

42:30

completely so the hotels are just standing there so now the hotels are full of H families that certainly the

42:38

hotels were not designed as as long-term residence areas this is a big strain on

42:43

on people another reason that families are just planning how to leave if they can if they have an extra passport or if

42:50

they can find a job somewhere or studies or whatever they would just leave um and

42:56

uh and so so this is a very heavy strain on the infrastructure Israel has been planning to H renovate its power grid

43:05

because it has a very outdated and very polluting and inefficient power grid

43:11

based on coal burning coal um and so they had a plan about how to upgrade all

43:17

of the power plants to run on natural gas because Israel is a mining natural gas now from the Mediterranean including

43:24

siphoning natural gas that belongs to Gaza um and um this is supposed to be

43:29

cleaner and more efficient and so on um but uh in order to upgrade the power plants they need cement and steel and

43:36

other materials that they are supposed to import from Turkey Turkey is saying these materials are dual use items and

43:43

in times of genocide we cannot allow these items to be exported to Israel so the whole plan of upgrading the Israeli

43:49

power grid has been put on hold and yesterday Colombia um actually I’m not sure if

43:56

we’re going to Broad if you’re going to broadcast this as as we speak so so I’ll I’ll say

44:03

the date on on June 6 Colombia has announced that it will um um stop

44:11

selling coal to Israel and Colombia is the biggest exporter of coal to Israel so we’re

44:17

talking about infrastructure if there’s not not going to be electricity um that threatens to to take Israel back to the

44:24

Stone Age basically I I remember reading uh during the apartheid period in South

44:29

Africa South Africa was one of the biggest exporters of coal to Israel I

44:34

assume that today South Africa would not be willing to replace the coal from

44:40

Colombia actually South Africa is still exporting Co to Israel even now even as we speak not as much as Colombia and

44:47

there is a movement in in South Africa as well which is calling on the South African government to stop the coal

44:53

exports for exactly the same reason that’s something that we need to to follow up on I I wasn’t aware of that

44:59

but Sher talk also of course the raw materials are vital and turkey announced

45:07

a broad ban on E exports to Israel quite belatedly I I have to say and only after

45:14

a lot of criticism uh that it had been taken not taken sufficient action in the

45:22

face of this genocide or at least not action commenced with the rhetoric of it leaders I mean you they the the turkey

45:32

regularly refers to Netanyahu as the new Hitler well well why are you trading

45:37

with Hitler then I mean it doesn’t make sense but certainly now they have ramped

45:42

up in a way that is very significant to the point where we saw Israel cats the foreign minister of Israel launching a

45:50

uh you know just an extreme public tirade against turkey uh that I think

45:56

was a real indicator of of how significant it was but on the other side

46:01

so raw materials consumer goods turkey is a massive producer of consumer goods

46:08

that you find uh for example um stores

46:14

in Jordan are full of Turkish consumer goods I assume there’s a similar situation in Israel because they’re high

46:21

quality and they’re much cheaper than uh their uh European or American or other

46:27

equivalent so that will probably uh contribute to inflation in

46:34

uh in Israel not only do you have fewer consumer goods coming in but the ones

46:39

which are coming in will now be more expensive we also want to ask you about the impact of the yemeni anti-genocide

46:45

intervention in a moment but before we get to that I want to ask you about the labor situation because talk about the

46:53

role of Palestinian labor in the Israeli economy because I think that is O often

47:02

um underestimated by a lot of people uh and what’s the status of that now are

47:09

Palestinian workers still in the Israeli economy to the same extent and if not

47:15

what can Israel do about it yeah Nora you asked this before and I and I didn’t

47:21

get on to to answer in it absolutely this is a very important point of course when you say Palestinians in the Israeli

47:26

economy let’s let’s be clear there are 48 Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship and they’re of course part

47:32

of this economy and uh and are also H facing the same inflation and the

47:40

consumer goods and everything just uh in addition to the violence and the racism that are out

47:48

of control and the fact that benville replaced large sections of the police with his own militia settler militia

47:56

which is AR fing and uh and of course so Palestinians don’t feel safe and and

48:03

this is something that of course also affects their ability to move freely and to work and to earn a living but

48:09

Palestinians in the West Bank which uh require a permit and have to go through

48:15

um harrowing experiences in the checkpoints every day nevertheless we we have to acknowledge the fact that a lot

48:22

of families depend on that income H and and as difficult as as it is the fact

48:27

that Israel simply stopped uh all of these permits is a very serious blow to

48:34

a lot of families who are not able to to feed themselves in in the West Bank and this is a serious crisis as

48:41

well but in terms of what the Israelis are feeling from this so a lot of economists are saying you know if you

48:47

don’t bring in these Palestinian workers from the West Bank the construction sector in Israel is grounds to a halt

48:54

and Israel has a long-term crisis in housing prices that um is is ongoing for

49:02

for a very long time and has a lot of factors of course which are related to our topic in many ways because of the um

49:10

Jewish National Fund buying the lands to to save them from non-jews and and things like that that increases the

49:17

prices of the land and the houses and so on um but let’s also remember the fact

49:22

that Tel Aviv for example the biggest city in Israel um about a third of the houses in Tel Aviv were

49:28

built by Palestinians I mean this is a settler Colony that was built by Palestinian labor and if no houses are built now and

49:37

also H there was some attempt by the government to bring in labor immigrants or or labor guest workers from countries

49:46

such as Malawi or India to take the place of the Palestinian workers and and to build uh to work in the construction

49:53

sector but who wants to go and work in in a burning uh country where where

50:00

there’s a war going on and uh racist violence raging in the street and people

50:05

are lynched I mean this is uh there’s this kind of colonial

50:12

assumption by the Israelis that uh people from from the global South will do anything for money and and their

50:18

lives are worth little to them so why not risk themselves to to work for under

50:23

the minimum wage and build our houses well it’s not working and so these economists are saying okay so the the

50:29

the housing crisis is going to escalate even more and the fact that hundreds of thousands of families no not sorry not not families

50:38

hundreds of thousands of individuals H from the area around Gaza and from the northern part of Israel

50:45

have lost their homes and are now living in hotels and they need houses or or apartments as well this is a a very

50:53

long-term crisis H which is going to the the the full brunt of this crisis

51:00

will only be felt in the future but as I said in the beginning Israelis don’t think about the future they don’t think

51:06

there is a future so they they spare very little thought to the fact that

51:11

stopping Palestinian workers from the West Bank um has such a a deep impact on

51:17

their economy um just a couple questions left

51:23

um let’s uh let’s talk about the humanit an intervention by aner Allah in Yemen

51:30

um you know enacting a blockade against ships Bound for

51:36

Israel um and and it’s left I mean aat Port uh is has been a you know a ghost

51:44

town um for months now because of it can you talk about the impact that uh that

51:50

that the Red Sea uh blockade has had on the Israeli

51:55

economy yeah um well I I first of all it’s not just a lot because um the ships

52:02

can also go through this West Canal and and much more important are the ports in ashdod and than aot and so those ports

52:10

are also not functioning and we saw two of the world’s biggest shipping

52:15

companies one is the Danish MK and the other one is the German hapag Lloyd

52:21

basically saying okay we’re going to go through around all of Africa in order to keep making the rounds not just to

52:28

Israel but to all the other ports that they are supplying um even though all

52:34

they need to do is basically say we’re not going to make a stop in Israel and then they can pass to the Red Sea on on

52:41

arms um and uh that cost billions to

52:47

these two uh shipping companies while the two biggest uh Chinese shipping

52:52

companies are simply saying we’re going to skip the ports in Israel and they can just go through so this shows how how

53:01

geopolitics on a global level is Shifting and Gaza is really the center of the world now as as hard as it is to

53:09

believe but this is the reality that we’re seeing Israelis don’t really want to address that point and talk about it

53:16

so um there’s very little research done about this I’ve seen some reports for

53:22

example that they’re saying uh some things are impossible to get anymore some products are are just because of H

53:30

of the Red Sea blockade um but um but more interestingly I think is the way

53:36

that Israelis uh try to to address this issue by using humor it’s very silly

53:43

humor but but it’s um H they create fake characters for houthis H who are um

53:54

um and make comedy sketches about that as a way of of dealing with this but the

54:01

whole point of these sketches is to say they don’t know anything about hoies they don’t know anything about about the

54:09

situation the reasons they cannot say that the reason that um the huis are are

54:15

bloating the Red Sea has to do with the genocide because they cannot recognize the genocide so the whole joke which is

54:22

not very funny turns out to be uh just people saying the word Hui which which

54:27

may sound funny to them or or blurting out stereotypes about yemeni

54:33

people um and that’s it so it’s another example of of just H fighting war with

54:41

their eyes closed and if Israelis are not addressing it and not not thinking

54:46

about what is the motivation what can be done about it what then then of course

54:52

there’s uh no no hope for for any

54:57

meaningful um response by the Israeli side and um that brings us again and

55:03

again to the same conclusion that there is no future so I I want to pick up on that we we just have a couple of minutes

55:11

but you started at the beginning of the conversation you said that states or at

55:17

least in modern history states that commit genocide or regimes that commit

55:24

genocide don’t survive they collapse what does the collapse of

55:30

Israel look like I mean obviously no one can read the future but what’s a

55:35

scenario that you think is is realistic how will this unwind does it end with a

55:42

bang does it end with a whimper is it a quick process is it a long and painful

55:50

process this is a key question for Palestinians because uh the the it’s an

55:56

existential question for Palestinians who live under a genocidal regime and

56:02

ending this genocidal regime is fundamental to Palestinian survival and

56:07

of course has much bigger implications globally because it is for the sake and

56:13

benefit of Israel that every International institution has been vandalized and trashed and rendered

56:20

inoperative uh just in order to spare Israel from being accountable for its

56:26

crimes but what what in your mind are some of

56:32

the realistic scenarios are the ones you the ones you think about for how this

56:38

regime comes to an end I’ll start by saying I’m probably the wrong person to

56:43

ask this question because I think um um that

56:50

the Jewish Israelis I’m I’m no longer Israeli but but that’s my my background

56:56

uh are not uh making any decisions they don’t choose I mean they they’ve already

57:02

made their choice you can say now Palestinians have to make their choice and they will decide what their future

57:08

is going to be like and they will decide what kind of an end will this aparti regime come to is it going to or set a

57:14

colonial regime is it going to be a bang or whimper H this is a Palestinian

57:22

decision I I do think that B I mean but I’m also part of of um BDS and I’m part

57:29

of of a lot of organizations that are working very very hard and and

57:35

ceaselessly because we still believe that we can change what What scenario is

57:42

going to happen I mean it is a matter of choice and not a matter of fate and I

57:47

think that um a lot hangs on the issue of the ceasefire this is really the key

57:52

issue the the ceasefire really means the difference because U I don’t know if

57:58

you’ve seen the leaked text of the ceasefire offer that Biden calls the the Israeli offer even though it’s clear

58:04

that it was not an Israeli offer um but phase one says ceasefire for 42 days why

58:11

42 days 42 days is six weeks which is

58:16

exactly the amount of time that Israel needs in order to hold an election Netanyahu says we can’t have an

58:22

election without a ceasefire but I don’t want a ceasefire well he doesn’t want elections but if there will be elections

58:29

in Israel then the the simple truth that everyone knows but nobody acknowledges

58:35

will become very apparent that nothing changed there is no leadership there is

58:40

no Direction there is no majority among the Zionist factions that can form a

58:46

government an election where only where the Zionist factions have a structural

58:52

majority because it’s an apartheid system will not create a solution it will only expose that there is no

58:58

solution and and the only alternative is a democratic alternative H so a ceasefire means

59:05

democracy that’s how I see it and that’s the hope that I mean equal rights um you

59:13

you wrote a book about this Ali so I don’t need to tell you about this uh but this is H I think this hinges on on the

59:22

ceasefire and without a ceasefire the other alternative the other scenario the one that I’m

59:28

dreading is a scenario where because of the elections in the United States and um and and the a very likely Trump

59:36

presidency um the the military financing from the US to Israel will simply stop

59:41

the US supports Israel in the same way that it supported South Vietnam or the Karai regime in Afghanistan there comes

59:48

a moment in which the US says Let Them Fall um which which which is which was

59:56

unth thinkable before October 7th I mean I think this is a key Point even for

1:00:01

someone like me or like you or like Nora who you know we’re in engaged in this

1:00:07

issue and even for uh me you know well I

1:00:13

I can be convinced and of course I am convinced that Palestine will be liberated but it can even if you believe

1:00:21

that’s true it can remain something of an abstraction because the reality seems

1:00:27

so solid and uh I think since October

1:00:33

7th we start to see possibilities that seemed Unthinkable

1:00:38

before October 7th so and I think that’s true for Palestinians it’s true for Israelis it’s true for the rest of the

1:00:46

world um and so even if when I wrote my first book

1:00:53

now not quite 20 years ago but getting close to that it still seemed an

1:01:00

abstraction I could believe that this scenario could happen but I couldn’t

1:01:05

tell you if it’s 20 years or 30 years or 50 years now one has the feeling that

1:01:12

things are fluid enough that some kind of transformational change whether For

1:01:19

Better or Worse could come at any moment um things are that unstable

1:01:26

and uh you know I remember of course we

1:01:31

we’ve talked over the years to many of our comrades in South Africa who will Who will say that we never thought

1:01:39

apartheid would end in our lifetimes and of course when the unraveling comes it

1:01:44

comes very quickly uh again for uh I I’m

1:01:50

with the hindsight of History I don’t think it was actually for the better that uh uh the cold war or or let’s say

1:01:57

the the the Berlin Wall came down I’m not saying the wall itself was a good thing but I think the Triumph of the of

1:02:06

the so-called West was not a good thing uh and the way it uh manifested itself

1:02:12

but nonetheless that Chang the the collapse of the Berlin Wall I was in

1:02:19

university at the time uh many viewers won’t remember it some will um was

1:02:25

something Unthinkable just a year before it happened uh you know November

1:02:32

1989 when all of these uh governments in Eastern Europe collapsed one after the

1:02:38

other over a period of a few months was absolutely Unthinkable do you think we’re in that

1:02:44

kind of period or can things go when you listen to Joe Biden he talks about

1:02:49

returning to a kind of status quo where we talk about the two-state solution and

1:02:55

then they’ll be a normalization deal with South Africa sorry with Saudi Arabia excuse me normalization deal

1:03:02

between Israel and Saudi Arabia and then Israel will be brought into the security architecture of the region as part of an

1:03:09

alliance against Iran I mean what yeah no no one is taking this

1:03:16

seriously in Israel of course this is no nobody thinks that the there’s any

1:03:23

return to a status quo so yeah I I do think that this is

1:03:28

realistic in in the very near future to to see this very big historical change H

1:03:36

and even though I I share your criticism about about the unification of Germany the fall of the wall H but I did ask a

1:03:44

lot of Germans I live in Germany I’ve asked a lot of Germans who are old enough to remember this and to remember the life before um what do they think

1:03:52

about it and a very very small minority think that it was uh better in East Germany even if they are very critical

1:03:59

of West Germany even those who came from East Germany and they say well it wasn’t as bad as people say but but yes it it

1:04:07

is a little bit better now and I think once we get we get um rid of the utopian

1:04:13

thinking and we think that like one Democratic state in Palestine means all

1:04:19

the problems will be solved they won’t all be solved but it certainly will be better and in the same way that it happened in South Africa how many South

1:04:25

Africa want to go back to apartheid so uh which is I think a better example than Germany H then yeah

1:04:34

yeah I suppose the conversation we’re having and maybe it’s one we need to invite you back to continue is not so

1:04:41

much was the past better but really what kind of future because nobody inide well

1:04:48

there there there might be a few people in South Africa who want to return to apartheid but I think for most people

1:04:54

who would be itical they would say it’s not that we want to go back to apartheid but we wanted a better future we wanted

1:05:02

we wanted the postapartheid future to take a different path of a better

1:05:08

economic situation for everyone more equitable distribution of land and resources and so on and that’s true in

1:05:16

in in terms of Europe as well uh it’s not that I think Europe should be

1:05:22

divided uh although I’m not so sure I I don’t think Germany should be divided I

1:05:28

think maybe Germany needs to be kept under very strict control given now that

1:05:33

it’s on its fourth genocide but um I think that it’s it’s

1:05:40

uh nobody at least you know who would have wanted the end of the Cold War the

1:05:46

fall of the Berlin War to read to the to lead to this kind of Europe where the

1:05:51

the far right uh even you could call a neon right is ascendant and now we Face

1:05:58

the prospect of uh casual talk about nuclear war with Russia and of course uh

1:06:05

every single European government with a few small exceptions uh is very

1:06:12

pro-israel uh very much in FA very much in favor of militarism so it it’s it’s

1:06:18

really a a discussion we need to have soon I think about what kind of future

1:06:25

and what less can we learn and in a sense that that’s a difficult discussion but it’s an optimistic one because it

1:06:31

means we believe there is a possibility for a different future and we hope that

1:06:37

the beginning of that will come very soon Shar H we would love to have you

1:06:45

back on again thank you so much for joining us um you are a political Economist and researcher um very quickly

1:06:52

tell us about the work that you do with the Palestinian BDS National Committee and and the campaign that you’re working

1:06:59

on I wish I could say this very quickly but yeah no I I I’m trying to um impose

1:07:07

a military embargo on Israel and stop the weapons so it’s just chase chasing all those ships that are going now

1:07:13

around Africa and uh finding them and getting them searched so the weapons

1:07:19

will be confiscated and won’t reach Israel it’s phenomenal work thank you

1:07:25

for doing that but no you’re on the right path um

1:07:32

and where can people learn more about the the campaign uh we have a a web page on the

1:07:40

military embargo at the BDS movement. net website H and there are several uh

1:07:45

military embargo campaigns that might be more relevant to different people watching us from different countries

1:07:50

obviously um not everyone is uh living in a port on the Mediterranean where

1:07:56

where ships can be stopped and searched but those those who do please please join this campaign H and those who live

1:08:03

um for example in in places where there are universities who can diver divest from Israeli arms companies um and and

1:08:11

join sittings in front of arms factories that are providing weapons to Israel and things like that then this is H what

1:08:18

what we need to do that’s great and that’s BDS movement. net Shar he thank you so much for joining us and we’ll see

1:08:25

you very soon thanks thank you so much here it was a pleasure thank you thanks

1:08:32

for watching this video please subscribe to our YouTube channel hit like leave a

1:08:37

comment these engagements help us with the YouTube algorithm and it helps us to

1:08:42

get around Silicon Valley censorship as much as possible it does make a difference you can also support our

1:08:48

journalism by going to electronic in.net and clicking on donate now thank

1:08:55

you

oooooo

Geure herriari, Euskal Herriari dagokionez, hona hemen gure apustu bakarra:

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency¹, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NATO, maybe being a BRICS partner…

1 This way, our new Basque government will have infinite money to deal with. (Gogoratzekoa: Moneta jaulkitzaileko kasu guztietan, Gobernuak infinitu diru dauka.)