The former head of Britain’s armed forces is providing advice to Israeli arms firms, Declassified has found. This raises serious questions over his role in a country whose prime minister is wanted by the International Criminal Court

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api. 6

Ronald Reagan, once the Republican God, on why tariffs and protectionism are neither patriotic nor beneficial in the long term.

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1908694952642596986

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Phil Klay@PhilKlay

Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده@RamAbdu

jeremy scahill@jeremyscahill

Api. 5

This video was discovered on the cellphone of a paramedic who was found along with 14 other Palestinian rescue and medical workers in a mass grave in Gaza.

The Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies presented it to the UN Security Council this week.

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1908419861941727248

(6:43 m)

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Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1908839825102241950

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ooo

“GAZA is a slaughterhouse for Humans.” Dr. Tanya Haj-Hassan.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnHb5Ki-d90)

In this conversation, Frank Barat and Tanya Haj-Hassan discuss the genocide in Gaza, focusing on Tanya’s personal experiences and observations from her recent visits. They explore the impact of violence on healthcare workers, the media’s portrayal of atrocities, and the need for a radical change in advocacy efforts. Tanya shares moments of hope amidst the destruction, the terror experienced during bombardments, and the psychological paralysis felt by those witnessing the ongoing violence from afar. The conversation highlights the complexities of the situation in Gaza and the urgent need for a shift in how the world responds to these crises. In this conversation, pediatrician Tanya Haj-Hassan discusses the profound impact of the ongoing conflict in Gaza on children, highlighting the psychological trauma and physical injuries they endure. She emphasises the importance of humanitarian aid, not just in terms of medical supplies but also in providing emotional support and a sense of normalcy. The discussion also touches on the need for solidarity and activism in the face of such atrocities, urging listeners to take personal responsibility and act against injustice. The conversation concludes with a call to recognise the growing movement for change and the necessity of organising for a better future.

Audio podcast here: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show…

Chapters

00:00 The Reality of Gaza: A Personal Connection

03:00 The Impact of Violence on Healthcare Workers

05:46 Media Representation and the Perception of Atrocities

09:04 The Need for Radical Change in Advocacy

11:58 Moments of Hope Amidst Destruction

14:58 The Experience of Terror During Bombardments

17:53 The Ongoing Siege and Its Consequences

20:47 Paralysis in the Face of Atrocities

26:57 The Impact of Conflict on Children in Gaza

34:06 The Role of Humanitarian Aid and Psychological Support

45:35 Hope and Solidarity in the Face of Atrocity

57:43 Personal Responsibility and the Call to Action

Transkripzioa:

The Reality of Gaza: A Personal Connection

0:02

hi Tanya hi um I I cannot really tell you how

0:09

um how in a way not it’s not happy but I’m I’m I’m yeah I’m really happy to to

0:15

talk to you today um because you’re one of the very rare person that has um

0:22

actually um been in Gaza uh over the last 18 months you’ve been twice and

0:27

correct me if I’m wrong um uh you were there and again correct me if I’m wrong I think in March 2024 and you went back

0:36

again um yeah I mean you just came back about 10 days ago so you spent another months in Gaza very recently and

0:46

um and I wanted to talk to you because like we have um we have we have

0:53

seen a lot of horrors on our phones and our on our TVs and on our computers is

0:59

but um but but we’ve we most of us the vast majority of us we’re not there

1:08

um I mean first I just wanted to ask you actually how how are you

1:15

Tanya you know Frank you and I had a kind of casual conversation about this earlier but

1:21

um I’m always better when I’m in Gaza or uh when I’ve recently connected with

1:27

people from Gaza Um so I think I’m definitely worse than

1:33

I was when I was inside Gaza it’s always really difficult to watch these things from the outside you feel you feel a

1:39

sense of kind of sometimes uh helplessness which I’d like to address

1:44

because I don’t think we’re helpless um but that that feeling is normal I think when you see things on your screen that

1:50

are so horrific um and the natural reaction if you have any humanity left

1:56

in you is to want to be part in some way of making us stop

2:02

um so yeah I think I’m definitely worse than I was when I was inside Gaza and then particularly today um like you I

2:10

expect uh I watched uh the video of the paramedics

2:16

um the video that was retrieved from the paramedic’s phone before he was killed

2:22

um and it’s really hard as a healthcare worker and also as a human uh to

2:31

see healthcare workers targeted uh

2:36

with such monstrosity and impunity uh and I know I knew it was happening

2:43

because I mean I’m I I work with an organization called Healthcare Workers Watch we focus on attacks on healthcare

2:49

we know they’ve been happening we know there have been you know well over uh a hundred ambulances that have been

2:56

attacked so far even at the hospital where I was based um this last time I

3:01

was in Gaza there was like a graveyard of ambulances in front of the hospital so a whole bunch of ambulances that were

3:07

crushed almost beyond recognition uh by Israeli military violence and so we knew

3:13

it was happening but I think it’s different when you hear the sounds you know you you you hear or see it unfolds

3:20

um it it it hits different and unfortunately as you know uh

3:27

international journalists are not let in palestinian journalists are often discredited or worse murdered

3:34

uh for trying to reveal uh to the world what’s happening internally

3:41

so we don’t often on western media at least uh get to see footage of these things un

3:50

happening in real time you hear about them you hear the statistics uh but you don’t actually see the crimes

3:56

themselves being committed you know for example summary executions of the paramedics we knew there were summary

4:03

executions happening all the time we know for example the paramedics that disappeared that went looking for Hindra

4:09

ultimately were found dead we just don’t have footage of that happening in real

4:15

time but I think that that particular video made me feel very sick

4:21

um very honestly ashamed and I I tried to think about why I felt so ashamed i

4:27

think I felt ashamed because in the moment when I watched the video uh I was you know I’m I’m I’m in another country

4:34

right now uh training a group of uh doctors and nurses on acute pediatric

4:40

care and it it makes me feel guilty that this isn’t my absolute priority every second of every day because I think it

4:45

should be yeah thanks Tanya and and I think what’s

4:51

what’s and we’ve we spoke about this just before as well we have experienced um you like for real

5:01

in a way because you were in Gaza and and most of us on our screens we have seen what we thought I mean first things

5:09

that no one should ever see in in a normal world but also we have seen like

5:16

you talked about Hindra Jab this was more than a year ago now when Hindraab happened the story by Hind the way she

5:23

was killed the way the emergency workers going to pick up were killed we thought

5:29

we had reached the worst of the worst but then the 15 ambulance like the 15 sort

5:37

of humanitarian workers are being killed uh reports actually say one by one then

5:44

they’re being buried with their ambulances and we seeing it live on our

5:50

screens and we think this is the

5:55

gravest horror and crime you can ever witness

6:01

so it’s crushing but also we expect the world including our leaders and to say

6:09

enough this is not possible and it’s not happening and this

6:14

is like what’s even more crushing isn’t it yeah you always assume that that that is

6:21

the red line that’s going to uh turn things around that’s going to wake people up that’s going to mean suddenly

6:28

uh there’s a shift in the tide and you’ve seen that i mean we’ve seen it over and over again with other

6:35

atrocities you know the little uh the little boy that had drowned uh during

6:41

immigration uh do you remember there’s just little things like that that you images that stick in your head images

6:47

that change the tide for the Vietnam War that change the tide for different wars of the past there doesn’t seem to be an

6:54

image an atrocity a red line crossed in the case of this genocide that is

7:02

enough to humanize uh the Palestinians that is enough for Western society to

7:09

remove its permission to exterminate the Palestinian people because at the moment unfortunately that’s exactly what we’re

7:16

seeing we’re we’re contending with with Western society giving

7:23

um permission giving permission for this to take place even in the way media

7:28

reports it with every headline there’s almost uh there there’s almost always

7:36

um a choice of words or an ending sentence that manufactures consent for

7:43

atrocities that are unjustifiable

7:49

and you know Frank I’ve been speaking to the media now for a year and a half and

7:54

when I first started I was very descriptive i I was uh doing official

8:00

communications for Doctors Without Borders i was very descriptive in what people were seeing on the ground in the

8:06

atrocities that were unfolding in the humanitarian situation or crisis and and

8:12

I I I use the language that I’m used to using as in in my profession you know I’ve been doing this for a long

8:18

time and normally that’s enough you know you let the the world you provide your

8:23

your tamage you’re you’re bearing witness and it’s enough to um to garner

8:31

uh support to relieve that suffering and I’m starting to feel that that that

8:38

maybe my approach on this is all wrong that maybe I need to change from uh what

8:44

I’m used to doing and and we all need to change from what we’re used to doing and do things differently

8:49

because we’re battling a reality where Western civilization

8:55

is willingly and knowingly we all knew about Hindra we had the audio recording

9:02

we had the different newspapers describing exactly what happened we all know what’s happening with the paramedics we know nobody can say that

9:09

they don’t know so we’re we’re battling with this reality where uh western

9:15

societies are knowingly authorizing this and so what’s the point of people like

9:21

me coming out and saying look it’s genocide look most of the kids most of the people we were resuscitating were

9:27

children uh look they attacked the hospital while I was in it they bombed the floor right above me while I was

9:34

inside the hospital i was there i saw it i know there was no militant activity in the hospital i know that there were

9:39

patients there i know they killed patients what’s the point in me saying all of these things when we know it already it’s not changing the reality on

9:46

the ground i I mean I spoke at the UN in in November

9:52

and the the point that I repeated over and over again

9:59

was that you know there there there there are no words left to convey what is

10:07

happening on the ground we used you know you reach a point where virtually every

10:12

humanitarian organization or or sorry every human uh um human rights

10:17

organization that has in and humanitarian organization actually because several did the same

10:23

investigation who who who’ve asked the question about genocide have come up with the same conclusion you know you

10:29

reach a point where there there’s almost no point in continuing to

10:37

just expose atrocities on on its own without

10:43

um with without doing something more radical and frank the word radical gets

10:49

a bad reputation but if you look up the word radical it shouldn’t have a bad

10:54

reputation what we need right now is something radical um yeah radical is

11:01

addressing the root of the problem and that’s what we need to do you know and

11:07

yeah it is and and any other way of addressing it just generates uh generates noise and uh I I worry

11:16

sometimes that that I’m inadvertently doing that that I’m being invited onto the media to talk about the humanitarian

11:22

situation and it just generates noise and and noise with no consequence

11:28

and no relief for the Palestinian people i mean you remember Muhammad Dura Frank

11:37

yeah I do there’s so many names that we can talk about you can talk about so many names over the course of

11:44

of my lifetime of Palestinian history so many names that should have been that

11:50

red line that should have been that turning point that should change the narrative that should

11:56

um uh make us question what we’re fed about this by uh Western media by

12:06

uh politicians in in so many of the countries uh that

12:12

are complicit in this yeah I I agree obviously 100% i still do

12:20

think that your voice like many others has helped has has helped bring clarity we I

12:29

think we live in a moment of extreme clarity and we’ve seen also hundreds of thousands millions of

12:37

people in the streets for 17 18 months nonstop and this is I mean this is

12:45

incredible like people don’t understand how hard it is to sustain a movement for

12:50

18 to 20 months um and this is what has happened and I think millions of people

12:56

I mean look I I was I’ve been working on on the question of Palestine for 20 years and I’ve had people in my life

13:03

that were kind of dis disinterested you know it’s too complicated i we know your

13:08

work but you know it’s too complicated blah blah blah and over the last 18 months I’ve had people I would never

13:14

have expected that reached out to me even people I really didn’t speak to anymore and you know and saying “Frank

13:20

we feel there’s something fishy going on watching the BBC and the stuff what’s really happening?” So I think people and

13:27

that’s what that’s the only thing really that sort of gives me hope and and and you know tried to make me optimistic but

13:35

um I think we just have to to to still grasp onto something and that’s the only

13:41

thing we can grasp on and and I mean we will we’ll talk about this maybe a bit later as well but I wanted to ask you

13:47

like when you came back to Gaza the second time it was when the ceasefire

13:54

had been declared um and we saw some

14:00

amazing videos and and pictures of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians

14:05

going back north where they had lost everything but anyway they were moving

14:11

back to where they belonged i was wondering what in this brief moment

14:16

because I think you came back the ceasefire was on but kind of very quickly you know Israel started bombing

14:22

again he’s firing and did you hear when I was saying like when we saw all these people coming back to the north right

14:30

yeah so yeah I was wondering when you came back what was your experience and how were

14:36

the people of Gaza feeling at this moment Frank u just for context I’d been going

14:44

to Gaza prior to October 2023 so I had visited a lot of the places uh that I’m

14:50

going to talk about in a second before um before they were destroyed by Israel

14:57

um I think for for for for people I had developed relationships with uh over

15:04

years um this period of relative respite

15:11

um had a lot of joy and hope uh in it i

15:16

think um I I met with them while I was there uh on a couple of occasions we even had a coffee one day together uh

15:24

and then when Ramadan started we we broke fast together it was just it was just

15:31

um despite like rampant destruction you know destruction that I think most

15:36

anyone I know in my life outside of Palestine uh would have felt really hopeless in

15:43

the face of um they were so filled with hope people were going back they were

15:48

trying to patch holes in the in in the walls of whatever homes they had left if their home was still standing people who

15:55

who people whose homes were not standing uh were living in tents or had moved in with neighbors and friends and relatives

16:02

but we’re talking about the day after what they would build what they wanted to subspecialize in if they were junior

16:09

doctors uh uh where they wanted their children to go to university you know there was there was a lot of hope

16:15

interjected within the grief and the loss and the grief and the loss Frank was significant you know every single

16:22

person I speak to has lost immediate family extended family friends colleagues uh their home i don’t know

16:29

anybody whose home is completely standing uh most people’s homes are partially destroyed or flattened

16:38

um so yeah I think there was a lot of hope uh

16:43

and hope despite the fact that there really never was a ceasefire i mean even

16:48

in that period you know between the end of January and and and and March

16:56

[Music] um I arrived on February 18th so from my

17:02

personal experience from February 18th until March 18th when uh

17:08

Israel reigned hell on Gaza that one month period there was actually uh daily

17:15

uh bombardment daily uh gunshot wounds so there was a lot of

17:21

uh ongoing violence from the Israeli military despite the so-called ceasefire so they were breaking it on a daily

17:28

basis but what happened it was just relative restbite so people could move

17:33

around without as much fear relatively you know um they could also buy food and

17:39

soap and shampoo and chocolates and so in addition to that that hope

17:44

hopefulness that you you sensed in people there was also um a lot of generosity so we were being invited

17:50

every day i kept joking that I was going to be one of the few people who left Gaza fatter than I was when I went in so

17:56

I was just constantly being fed uh I’m not kidding like it reached the point where it was a bit ridiculous i kept

18:02

telling them I was I don’t think I’ve ever eaten so much in my life but they were constantly trying to feed me chocolates and uh they cooked meals for

18:09

us with with chicken and meat you know they hadn’t really seen chicken and and and red meat for for almost a year and a

18:16

half at that point so um I think people were just breathing finally and

18:21

experiencing joy and things um so yeah that morning of the the 18th

18:28

was beyond the fact that it that it was terrorizing and I I don’t use that word

18:34

lightly or accidentally i genuinely think frank

18:41

that this is state sponsored terrorism in the worst possible way you know

18:51

and I feel like we’ve been using the word genocide so long it’s almost lost its weight and and you need a word

18:57

that’s heavier and I don’t know what word is heavier but it’s so sustained

19:03

i’m not you know in in my short lifetime experience I’m not used

19:08

to global establishment of something as genocide and then its

19:15

continuation so um so yeah I mean that that night was pure terror uh we we were

19:22

awoken from our sleep for those of us who had fallen asleep by this earth uh

19:29

shattering shaking uh noise the walls were shaking the windows were shaking the doors flew open uh with every blast

19:37

and um the sound was terrifying you could hear all the the the fighter jets you could hear the bombs and

19:45

you when you’ve been around have you been around aerial bombardment before

19:51

no i mean there’s there’s different there there it stimulates your senses and so

20:00

uh you know if you hear a door slam you startle right like the door slams you startled so if it’s far you you

20:07

experience what you would experience if you heard a door slam you know it would just be that sudden oh what was that

20:12

that sound but then when it gets closer and closer there’s other ways it stimulates your senses the the ground

20:19

shakes the wall shake the um if it’s really close your eardrum hits sometimes

20:25

your ears will even ring depending on how close it is and and so if you imagine I had experienced a lot of those

20:32

things the first time I was in Gaza but this is in the period of 10 15 minutes it was just continuous every single

20:38

sense you know you’re just being startled you know every every few seconds all over again and then we

20:44

walked down on the balcony in addition to all the things you were hearing and feeling you could just see the sky lighting up across the strip everywhere

20:52

our our balcony um gave us a view essentially of you know three

20:57

three dimensional you know view of uh um in three different directions and and

21:04

you could just see the sky lighting up in in all these places and the the bellows of smoke um so honestly it was

21:10

it was terrifying and there’s the the the fear uh uh there’s the fear for your

21:16

own life but to be honest I think for me that was less than the fear for what was about to come in and the just the

21:24

devastation that that little bit of hope that we were all holding on to was just suddenly in one second crushed and

21:30

crushed in the most uh um vicious way

21:36

yeah i mean you you spoke about the need to find new words to describe what’s

21:41

what’s happening or what has been and what is happening in Gaza and I think over the the next few years you know

21:48

international lawyers um and are going to and others are going to try to find

21:53

new words because we have never seen a genocide the genocide of the people that

22:00

are trapped in a cage this is madness this is sadism this is you know this is

22:06

new words and that’s also the thing when you when you are lost for words to describe words are important when you

22:13

feel there’s no words anymore you tend to be paralyzed and you just can’t speak but I

22:20

sorry if I was going to say I think paralysis is like a really important word and and that’s I don’t know about

22:26

you but every now and then when I um when I’m not inside Gaza and I see you

22:31

know the next horrific uh abhorrent thing on on my phone or on

22:37

the news I do get this sense of paralysis sometimes I just sit down and I like take a a deep breath and I you

22:44

you don’t know how to continue with your life you you you experience this you know and

22:50

it’s this you just want to scream and I’ve started cursing that’s a new thing for me i used to curse now I start

22:57

because it’s almost like you have so much anger so much rage so much sadness and you don’t know where to put it and

23:05

um I don’t recommend the cursing thing i’m just saying it’s it’s been like a a

23:11

a source of of I guess relief uh in some ways

23:16

but it it is very very paralyzing i I I couldn’t agree with that sentiment more

23:21

and I think that that your description of of it being also you know a very

23:27

exceptional situation because the population is trapped it’s very important because they they have been

23:32

trapped for some 17 years in some ways but the the level of besiegment

23:39

increases every single day you know now they’ve kind of destroyed all of Rafa

23:44

and when you look at the maps in the area they’ve they’ve taken control of as their buffer zone which is the same area

23:50

they’ve been essentially exterminating the same area they killed the paramedics in in cold blood uh uh last week that

23:59

area is the border with Egypt so what this means now is you know Gazins used

24:04

to be able to exit and enter through Egypt under often exceptional circumstances but they could still enter

24:10

and exit if they received approval a lot of goods were brought in through Egypt you know this is another level of

24:17

suffocation beyond water electricity uh uh movement of humans movement of goods

24:26

even even the even within the sea which thank God for for for the Mediterranean

24:32

because without the sea I don’t know how you would breathe in Gaza that beach is such a source of of restbite um but even

24:40

within the sea the fishermen are shot at as soon as they get out to a reasonable

24:45

distance to fish you know um so yeah it’s just it’s like it’s a different

24:51

it’s a different it’s just another layer

24:57

of of horror inflicted on Yeah

25:03

yeah like remember we were talking about before like we thought Hindra Jab was like the worst we could see remember and

25:11

I can’t remember when it was I think it was at least 8 months ago where this uh

25:17

picture on social media went viral all eyes on on Rafa

25:23

because even the US government had said Rafa is the red line and now we’re seeing pictures of Rafa you know before

25:30

and after and Rafa has gone and that’s also why what’s making

25:37

us paralyzed and and and and and kind of go crazy and and I think you know the

25:42

swearing and and the screaming I think for me and of a lot of

25:48

my friends uh going on a demo as maybe the main reason has been

25:55

to be able just to scream for about two hours to scream very loudly for two hours cuz we we just can’t really take

26:02

it anymore but I wanted to ask you because you are ped pediat

26:08

pediatrician and we know children have bought the the most not most but I’ve

26:16

been one of the you know we know Gaza most Gaza is like 50% roughly under 16

26:22

or something um can you tell me what kind of impact

26:30

this genocide barbarism of the 21st century

26:35

has had on the children of Gaza um thanks DA

26:43

i don’t know i mean what impact has it had on you Frank what impact has it had on me like we’re we’re changed forever

26:51

and it’s hard for me sometimes I’m sure it’s hard to to even start to think

26:58

about what the child in front of me has seen or is thinking or is experiencing

27:06

um I saw a video yesterday and I I’ll go back to the the children I seen personally but I saw a video yesterday

27:12

of this girl with her eyes open um and her chest being sutured uh and I think

27:18

her family had not come in with her so unclear if they survived or what had happened to them but her eyes were open

27:24

as she was being stitched with this like large gaping wound on her chest ketamine is a drug we use for sedation um

27:33

and it’s a very useful drug because it offers pain relief it also offers sedation so the the patients sleep but

27:41

they often keep their eyes open and

27:47

uh I saw so many children in that last um five plus weeks in Gaza

27:56

that had that same look of complete dissociation that you get with it’s a

28:02

dissociative agent that’s what ketamine is that you get with ketamine except I hadn’t given them any ketamine so they

28:08

would come in with some of the worst injuries imaginable and they would just look straight ahead completely

28:15

dissociated and you expect them to cry you expect them to ask for their mother you expect them to do the normal things

28:22

a four and five and six-year-old would do but they don’t they they just dissociate we had children who had

28:28

mutism so children who stop speaking they understand what you’re saying but they just stop speaking um we had

28:37

um we had children who had regressed in terms of the things that they used to do in terms of their development um we had

28:48

uh we had children obviously who cried and screamed and did all the things you expect children to do in the face of

28:54

that kind of horror but you I mean beyond the physical impacts because

29:00

these are children who’ve had inadequate nutrition who’ve had who’ve been injured

29:06

and maimed and out of organized education for now a year and a half so

29:13

beyond all the physical impacts that will have I I can’t even begin to think about the mental impact that this will

29:21

all have i Frank had never seen shredded bodies or beheaded children or uh uh

29:30

burns to the extent that we’d seen in the last year and a half before in my life as a as a pediatric intensive care

29:36

doctor i’d never seen people come into the emergency department with their foot in a box asking me to sew it back on or

29:44

people coming with uh I had seen brain matter out before but very very rarely

29:52

it was so common in Gaza that it was actually just a a something you assessed for when a

29:59

child came in with a head injury they would immediately say in Arabic uh brain matter out that was it is the brain

30:05

matter out because it was so common and if the brain matter was out it was probably worth you spending your time

30:11

resuscitating a different child because this child was prognosis was poor particularly with the with the given

30:17

resources and so I I’ve never seen those things imagine the children in Gaza seeing

30:24

these things anyone seeing these things i mean you’ve seen some of the pictures and videos have you ever seen anything

30:29

so horrific i mean it’s it’s a slaughter house for humans and and to have

30:36

children see that inflicted on strangers is horrific enough the way we’re seeing

30:42

it being inflicted on strangers imagine seeing it live and then imagine it seeing live being inflicted on your

30:49

family and you know in people always tell me “Oh it must be so hard to be a

30:55

pediatrician it’s so sad to see kids that are sick kids that are

31:00

dying i I don’t think it’s more sad than seeing an adult who’s sick or dying uh

31:05

to be honest um I find kids easier because kids are

31:12

simple they want to be around their parents because that’s where they get their security from it’s the person

31:18

they’re attached to it’s where they get their security from they want to be wellfed and they don’t want to be in

31:24

pain so their needs are very simple an adult is worrying about the future they’re worrying about death they’re

31:30

worrying about a lot of things that kids often don’t worry about it’s different for the children in Gaza because one

31:36

you’re killing and maming their parents so their parents aren’t safe or their parents are dead so you’ve removed that

31:43

level of security you can’t nourish them appropriately because they’ve been

31:49

blocking food for a year and a half and have now completely closed the borders

31:54

and you can off and you often can’t even relieve their pain because you don’t have enough agents to do that again

32:01

because Israel is blocking everything from entering and so you can’t offer them the very basic things that they

32:07

need and on top of that they’ve reached the level of forced maturity that most

32:15

children at that age don’t have i don’t know if you have any children in your life but when they’re three and four

32:20

they don’t often ask about death or think about death or think about their own death children in Gaza talk about it

32:26

all the time they they feel like it’s this inevitable thing you have children ages you know who’ve just learned how to

32:31

write writing their own will their own will saying you know give this toy to if

32:38

I die please give this toy to so and so and please give this to so and so because they’re expecting to die so on

32:44

all those levels children in Gaza are different and so when I tell you I find children easier to deal with when

32:50

they’re critically ill because I know how to attend to their needs in a way that I

32:57

find it very difficult to attend to the needs of an adult it’s not the case for children in Gaza

33:02

because because we’ve we’ve forced them out of childhood

33:11

h Yeah i’ve got two two boys actually yeah um but

33:18

um my my friend Iman Marifi who who’s a nurse and was in Gaza in January

33:26

February 2024 said that when she was preparing to

33:31

go to Gaza she packed all the medical equipment she could find um everything

33:38

um she left and she w was due to go back a few months later she said which was

33:45

about 6 months later and she said this time around I only packed sweets teddy

33:51

bears um chocolates because I realized no I

33:57

mean no medical equip you know the worst was the psychological trauma people

34:03

needed to be held people needed to be cuddled people need to laugh is that what you felt as well

34:12

i I kind of did the same actually like my uh I went with mainly a surgical team

34:18

this time and they were constantly making fun of me because I would just pull out balloons and games and

34:24

lollipops and all sorts of things for my bag um for for exactly that reason i also feel

34:30

like I mean I did bring some uh medical equipment um unfortunately I I I thought

34:37

I was going during a ceasefire period and when a lot of things were getting into Gaza

34:44

um and that changed very quickly uh after March 18th

34:50

um because in the period of almost one night we finished most of the things

34:56

that we had the stock that we had in the emergency department you know when you just think about um gauze and

35:02

medications and I mean we finished it so quickly i bought I brought a handful of

35:08

these military grade tourniquets for when you have life-threatening bleeding we used them all that first night i

35:14

called within an hour of being in the emergency department i called the pediatric intensive care unit so Ned

35:20

Hospital is three buildings um the emergency department that receives all

35:25

the trauma cases pediatric and adult is in the main building the same building that was bombed by Israel on the 23rd of

35:31

March the building next to it is a maternity and child’s um care building

35:37

uh and that’s where the pediatric ICU is within an hour of being in the emergency department I had rung the pediatric ICU

35:45

saying “Please bring all the equipment you can we’ve run out of equipment to care for kids.” So the emergency

35:51

department has obviously their stock for children because they receive all the pediatric trauma cases but we there were

35:57

so many children Frank and we used most of the equipment and so the pediatric

36:02

ICU team came running down with a box of things that we very quickly used as well

36:08

um so yeah I I did like your friends I brought mostly you know things to bring bring some level of restbite i brought

36:14

little decorations cuz I knew that Ramadan and Eid were coming up and I figured a lot of people were living in

36:20

tents and and you know it’s a period of the year where people decorate and they celebrate and and I

36:29

uh I was trying to think of ways to to create a sense of positivity and and

36:36

hopefulness so I I mostly packed that sort of thing um and the limited amount

36:42

of medical equipment that I brought was very quickly used up and frank we’re not you’re not allowed to take in medical

36:47

equipment or medications unless they’re for personal use so I mean that’s the

36:53

absurdity of things as well is uh so many of the things that are not allowed

36:59

in or allowed out and we could talk about that in a second but so many of the things that are not allowed in are

37:05

not dual use they’re not things that can be used for any military purposes they’re not allowed in because they’re

37:10

life-saving or because they help people reconstruct their lives um so yeah

37:19

um the other the other reason I I I kind of agree with your colleague

37:26

is you know I have people tell me or message me saying “I wish I had a skill

37:32

set you know I wish I could go in there and save lives like you guys do.” I don’t know if we save lives Frank i

37:38

mean that might be true in a situation where you have a finite insult you know

37:43

you have an earthquake or a crisis and you go and you treat as many patients as possible and you support the health care

37:48

system because it’s overwhelmed and we’re certainly doing those things

37:55

but every child that was admitted to the pediatric ICU I’m a pediatric intensive care doctor so after that you know

38:02

period in the emergency department I then went to my my home base which is the the intensive care unit and then I

38:07

took care of the children who were injured on the 18th and admitted to the ICU all of the children that we admitted

38:15

to the ICU thankfully survived many of them remained but they survived

38:21

um countless other children died in the emergency department that night and they survived thanks to the very hard work of

38:28

the pediatric intensive care team there and

38:34

um there there was a moment where I felt proud of that i said you know uh the team worked so hard and

38:41

[Music] um and and I felt I think we felt proud of it too because the the director of

38:48

the hospital came by and was congratulating us on all the good care that we provided despite it being like a

38:53

really busy busy busy period and I think it made the team feel good but but the reality

38:59

is one of the patients whose one-year-old uh is leaving the ICU without a mother having received very

39:06

extensive abdominal surgery at one year of age having still a piece of shrapnel

39:12

in her lung as a souvenir another girl is leaving without

39:17

any of her sisters cuz they were all killed with a mother and father who are both injured with no spleen because it

39:24

had to be removed with multiple injuries to her bowel to her liver and the worst injury to her brain

39:31

she doesn’t move the right side of her body and she struggles to speak it’s very clear that she understands us but she’s struggling to produce

39:38

words and a boy is leaving probably and I’m not sure I’ll have to follow and see

39:43

what happened to him but uh the orthopedic surgeons were concerned that

39:49

he wouldn’t that he would require amputations of one if not both of his legs

39:55

um and uh after all of his siblings were killed by one 14year-old sister so you

40:02

wonder as a healthc care provider you know how much good you’re doing um not

40:08

only because they’re leaving the ICU maimed sometimes orphaned and with

40:16

having lost so many of the people that they’re closest to but also because they’re leaving the ICU back into

40:24

genocide you know so a lot of the people I cared for last

40:29

year in March uh are either dead or or injured again after we

40:37

discharged them last March so you know you wonder what kind you

40:43

know how much good you’re doing medically and I think like your colleague a lot of the reasons we go is

40:51

our solidarity bearing witness um and maybe providing some level of of

41:00

restbite and the things that we can bring for people in the in the conversations that we can have while

41:05

we’re there in in hopefully showing uh Palestinians that the world hasn’t uh

41:12

forgot about them um and at least from a healthc care standpoint I think the solidarity is very very important

41:18

because these teams have been working nonstop for a year and a half

41:23

and honestly Frank they’re the most remarkable people I’ve ever worked with

41:33

and they really don’t deserve what’s happening to them when I tell you they’re the most remarkable people I’ve ever worked with I really mean it you

41:39

know just just right now while I’ve been on this interview I can see that I’ve received

41:46

text messages from from a couple of uh of the doctors that I worked with there one of them lost his mother and

41:55

most of his siblings a lot of his uncles and cousins at the beginning so October

42:02

2023 um while we were there he was on the phone with his uh father in Gaza

42:09

City and his father and he was telling his father “As soon as I finish my shift I’m going to come see you guys.” And his

42:16

father said “No no don’t it’s dangerous don’t don’t come just stay where you are.” He hung up and was having a

42:22

conversation with his colleagues about whether he should go or not and then about 10 minutes later received a phone

42:28

call from his brother saying that their house they were sitting outside of their

42:34

their house and kind of just chatting and that they were bombed and his father was killed his uh younger brother was

42:42

killed and his sister uh receal injury and is now not moving her leg arm i mean

42:49

we found out uh hours later but the consequences of her injuries but she she’s not moving her arms or her legs

42:56

and so essentially he’s lost his entire family 24 members of his family a year

43:02

and a half ago and now the rest of his nuclear family with the exception of a

43:08

sister who’s paralyzed for life um and a brother

43:14

and the last 3 days they’ve been finishing in the operating room around 1:30 2:00 in the morning because they’ve

43:19

been receiving so many casualties he’s still there doing that you know having lost his entire family he’s still at

43:27

work caring for his for his patients that they are exhausted and yet they

43:32

continue to do it march March 18th within about four hours of being in the

43:39

emergency department I was laded i had to sit down you know we had been awake the entire night we worked non-stop it

43:47

was chaos it’s physically exhausting it’s emotionally exhausting to constantly see death and loss and death

43:54

and loss and death and loss and I I had a home to go to i don’t have children

44:00

that I’m worrying about you know whether they’ll be killed while I’m at work i’m not worrying about the my entire

44:07

livelihood or extending extended family being exterminated any second and I was

44:13

exhausted i can’t imagine what it’s like for them after a year and a half

44:18

so I think you know uh probably the most important reason we go is just to to

44:24

to work with you know these remarkable people and and um and provide a level of

44:32

of solidarity that’s easier to provide in person

44:40

thanks Daniel thanks for for for sharing sharing this with me i I um I wanted to

44:46

end with asking you about um you’ve you’ve touched upon it but

44:53

um what is left to say to the world and

45:00

I sort of divide the world between the people of the world

45:05

and a lot of them have expressed incredible solidarity with the Palestinian people uh but have

45:12

felt complete useless less most of the time and and you you started pretty much

45:18

the interview by saying like I want to address this you know we are not useless but what is left to tell to the world

45:25

and and and then this 1% of the what we call the decision makers the one that

45:31

have been enabling supporting complicit in this genocide is it even worth talking to

45:37

them anymore [Music]

45:48

i’m not sure how to answer the latter question

45:53

um you know every now and then I get invited to do an interview by a a media source that’s been manufacturing consent

46:00

for this from the very beginning and I have to ask myself that question do I just reject it on the basis that they’re

46:06

hopeless it’s a lost cause they have no journalistic integrity left i almost

46:12

don’t want to get on their show because

46:18

I out of principle um but then at the same time they have a

46:24

wide viewership and they have [Music] capacity in theory uh to to reach a a

46:32

broader group of people or in the case of politicians to affect change immediately you know I think in the long

46:38

run Frank we need to create new systems

46:44

um liberated systems systems that don’t rely on you know old colonial um white

46:52

supremacist ways and that’s going to take time and I think that’s true of universities i

46:58

think it’s true of media agencies it’s it’s true of journalism it’s true of the film industry it’s it’s true of the

47:04

medical indust you know the the medical field as well we we need to we need to be creating um waves of social change

47:14

that are not suppressed silenced and

47:25

um by and and and and kind of uh what’s

47:30

the right word shifted I guess away from you know

47:44

by kind of uh colonial undertones and col you know things that we just can’t

47:50

shake from so many of these systems and the train the same thing is true of humanitarian organizations too you know

47:55

this this infiltrates every single space [Music]

48:01

um that is going to take a radical change

48:07

and hold on i’m going to actually just read the definition of radical radicalize or uh yeah people need to be

48:15

reminded really of what that means yeah I think it’s very important

48:20

manufacturing consent starts with uh redefining words right uh and like

48:27

making them sounds very scary when actually they’re pretty good but I mean

48:35

if Yeah so it’s advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social

48:41

change representing or supporting an an extreme or progressive section of a political party a radical person is a

48:47

person who advocates thorough or complete political or social change

48:53

um and then in chemistry this is my favorite definition

48:59

a group of atoms behaving as a unit in a number of compounds anyway I bring that

49:05

up just because I think just an answer to your question about hope um seems very appropriate to bring it up now I I

49:13

derive uh hope and lack of hopelessness from the fact that this movement is growing and growing in number it’s

49:19

growing and growing in strength and it’s growing also in in in commitment so there’s so many people who were scared

49:26

um of speaking out who felt that they were silenced uh

49:32

who are now feeling like there’s nothing to lose that

49:37

they that they could not live with their own soul if they didn’t risk what they

49:42

need to risk at this point and I think um that brings me hope because you know

49:48

all these atoms coming together um I think eventually uh can’t can

49:55

provoke change change regardless of what politicians want um or or what you know

50:04

uh power underlies them i mean I was thinking the same thing about the position that the United States has

50:10

taken recently i think if enough other countries unite against that position

50:15

then uh there’s yeah there’s there’s

50:21

there’s there’s hope that you can overcome you

50:27

know powers that I’m so sorry I’ve been speaking French all day i think I told you before now I’m not more

50:34

no please please like you know it all makes a lot of sense

50:42

i just think that hope hope comes from the fact that the this wave of change keeps

50:50

growing but I think we need to remember that i I my sister messages me every

50:55

every few days saying “I don’t know what to do you know I wish I had your skill set or I don’t know what to do i keep

51:01

posting on social media i don’t know what to do there there’s so much we can do there’s so much we can do we just

51:06

need to dedicate the time and space for it you need to organize um if you look back at every atrocity of the past it

51:14

was people who organized and they organized in in in creative ways um and

51:20

they were willing to sacrifice they were willing to sacrifice their position they were willing to sacrifice um their

51:28

salary they were willing to sacrifice whatever it took um and I think we’re all at so many of us Frank are at that

51:35

point now where where we’re willing to sacrifice whatever it takes

51:42

thanks Tanya i I I um you know I mean you’ve got a we all

51:48

have a choice you know and at the end of our lives um because we’re not eternal

51:53

even Musk probably thinks he’s eternal and he finds something to leave until

51:59

he’s like 200 years old but we have a a choice right and I think our soul is

52:04

what makes us right and I think I’m just trying to think and again I don’t want

52:11

to I’m just trying to think and say like to people that keep saying we’ve lost we

52:17

have lost that’s it it’s too late there’s no alternative we’ve lost can you really win can someone

52:24

really calls himself a w can someone responsible for genocide can call himself a

52:30

winner no they’re dead inside you know you can’t you’re not a human anymore if you have no heart or no soul and I think

52:38

by just keep us keep trying even if it’s just you know keep

52:45

trying to get to this place we want to get to at least it’s um we you know

52:51

we’ll have said you know at least we’ve tried we’ve tried very hard and um and you and and thank you so much

53:00

for for having shared Yeah sorry go no I was just gonna say I want to catch you

53:06

up yeah no no no no i I wanted to add one one quick thing because I think um

53:12

we’re probably coming to to to the end now but I’ve said this before but I really

53:18

think this is going to be the source of shame of of so many

53:24

generations that have lived through this right now and and I don’t know I think back to

53:30

atrocities of the past and I always told myself “Wow if I were alive then and I

53:38

knew it was happening I really hope I wouldn’t be wouldn’t have been one of those people

53:45

that felt like it was far far from me and didn’t impact me or worse uh felt

53:54

scared to speak up or scared to do something about it or felt too too busy

53:59

to do anything about it and it happens all the time i mean I I I think back to

54:05

other atrocities that have happened in our lifetime whether it’s uh what’s happening in Sudan right now or the

54:11

Congo or um uh the Rohhinga or the the Weaguers or the Iraq

54:19

war or the Syria war you know I have every single you know and and you know you can sort of cover global geography

54:25

and talk about all the atrocities that have happened and I think back and I I wish I was more

54:32

alert then i wish I knew exactly what was happening i wish I understood better um the reality is all of that

54:40

information is out there now and it’s so available on social media and it’s available through other sources like

54:47

yourself who’ve tried very hard from from the very beginning uh to create

54:53

spaces to to talk about what’s happening to reveal what’s happening to correct uh

54:58

historical inaccuracies and the reality is now that we know what’s happening we

55:06

are living that atrocity in real time and in 10 years 15 years 20 years when

55:12

what you know whatever it takes for the full reconciliation of what actually happened

55:19

um or the full sort of uh documentation and exposition of what

55:24

happened um whenever that happens you’re you’re

55:30

going to have to reckon with what you were doing today during this period because you do know and I know and

55:36

everybody watching this knows and we we we don’t have any excuses we don’t

55:43

what’s happening at Colombia what’s happening uh at uh New York University

55:49

what’s happening at so many at Harvard what’s happening at so many you know uh um universities in the United States for

55:58

example might make people feel scared what’s happening at the US border might make people feel scared and I’ve seen it

56:04

in a lot of my uh American friends and colleagues you know where they’ll say “Oh I don’t want to speak up because I

56:09

need to go back to the United States or I don’t want to speak up because I’m on X visa or I don’t want to speak up

56:15

because is that is that is that the excuse that you want is that an excuse you’ll be able to live with in 10 15

56:21

years when you have to reckon with this that you didn’t want to risk something personal?” Um I know for me I I I hope I

56:29

don’t ever create excuses for myself i know I do i think that’s natural

56:35

um but you have to live with those excuses um and and you’re in action

56:47

today thanks DA um there’s no better

56:52

ending to in a way leave people with this question I think so uh thanks

56:58

really a million for having you know giving me the time

57:04

to to share all of this thanks DA thank you Frank

oooooo

ooo

Prof. John Mearsheimer: Why Israel’s Destruction of Gaza is “A Genocide”

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uypAZMwzJ9U)

This is a clip from our show SYSTEM UPDATE, now airing every weeknight at 7pm ET on Rumble. You can watch the full episode for FREE here: https://rumble.com/v6rnv2x-system-upd.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

[Music]

0:06

all right we previewed the discussion

0:08

that we’re about to have with Professor

0:09

John Mirshimer so I just want to get

0:11

right into that professor Mirshimer

0:13

thank you so much for taking the time to

0:14

talk to us it’s always great to see you

0:17

great to be here Glenn you know I

0:20

actually thought about this morning and

0:21

this afternoon starting by talking to

0:23

you about the free speech crisis and the

0:25

kind of assaults on academic freedom

0:27

taking place in America academia i of

0:30

course want to get to that with you but

0:31

I realize afterwards it’s almost

0:33

impossible not to begin with the ongoing

0:35

atrocities in Gaza because the scale of

0:37

it the horror of it the fact the United

0:39

States is directly responsible for it I

0:41

think really requires that it be the

0:44

first topic that we talk about so I

0:46

guess my question is to you and we’ve

0:48

talked about before what you think the

0:51

Israeli motives might be in essentially

0:54

destroying all of Gaza destroying

0:56

civilian life in all of Gaza to me it

0:58

seems like there’s no doubt any longer

0:59

what their intentions are they’re saying

1:01

it there’s really only really one one

1:04

possibility i’m just interested in your

1:06

uh view of what that is

1:09

yeah I think there is only one possible

1:12

goal here given what they’re doing and

1:14

that is to ethnically cleanse uh Gaza

1:18

and what they’re trying to do is make

1:20

Gaza unlivable and that in their story

1:24

will force the Palestinians to leave uh

1:28

but uh other than that I can’t see what

1:31

possible motive they would have for

1:33

continuing this offensive you know I

1:36

I’ve seen the sentiment around a lot

1:38

i’ve heard it from people I I like and

1:41

trust and and I’m colleagues with and

1:43

friends and I certainly feel it the same

1:45

way it’s like at some point you just

1:47

almost feel like you’re out of words out

1:49

of horror and disgust and rage to

1:52

express the more you see i do think it’s

1:55

gotten worse in terms of the resumption

1:58

you could probably compare it to the

1:59

early couple months where there was just

2:00

indiscriminate bombing and huge numbers

2:02

of people killed we’re kind of back to

2:03

that but on some level even worse when

2:05

you add in the purposeful blockading of

2:08

any food getting in the use of mass

2:10

starvation as a form of collective

2:12

punishment and driving people out

2:14

forcing them to side between ch starving

2:16

to death or or leaving and giving that

2:18

land of theirs to the Israelis how do

2:21

you compare what we’re seeing in in Gaza

2:24

to other atrocities and war crimes and

2:28

the like that say we’ve seen over the

2:30

last uh several decades

2:34

well I think this is a genocide and I

2:36

would put it in the same category as

2:39

what happened in Rwanda what happened in

2:41

Cambodia and what happened uh in World

2:44

War II with the Nazi Holocaust uh I mean

2:47

the basic goal here is to uh kill a huge

2:52

number of people in the Palestinian

2:55

population and that I think easily

2:57

qualifies as a genocide and in fact

3:01

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty

3:03

International have both done lengthy

3:05

reports that lay out the case for

3:07

genocide and I find those cases

3:10

compelling so I think this is a lot like

3:13

those other cases

3:15

i know a lot of people even people who

3:18

might be uneasy or even critical of what

3:22

the Israelis are doing in Gaza

3:23

nonetheless have a a very kind of

3:24

visceral almost primal opposition to

3:27

applying the word genocide to what the

3:30

Israelis are doing in Gaza and they may

3:32

say things like “Oh look if their goal

3:33

were to just wipe them all out and

3:35

eradicate them they have the weaponry to

3:36

do so and they have not done that yet.”

3:39

and and and I guess some people at the

3:42

same time say “Does it really matter if

3:44

if this is called a genocide?” What I

3:46

know you’ve used that word before you

3:47

just use it again what is your

3:49

understanding of exactly what a genocide

3:51

is how do we recognize that and why does

3:53

it apply or I guess why is it important

3:54

to use that term for this case

3:58

well there’s a clear-cut definition in

4:00

international law uh which was by and

4:03

large established as a result of the

4:06

Nazi genocide in World War II and it

4:09

involves you know focusing on uh killing

4:13

a large portion of a particular

4:16

population that population could be

4:18

based on ethnicity or religion or what

4:21

have you but the point is that what

4:23

you’re aiming to do is kill a huge chunk

4:27

of a particular population now that can

4:31

happen rapidly it can happen slowly but

4:34

does that really matter if you were to

4:36

kill three million uh people in a

4:40

particular group over five years would

4:43

that be any different than killing those

4:45

people over five months i think the

4:47

answer is no uh and I think you

4:51

therefore really can’t compare genocides

4:55

with one another the same way you can’t

4:58

compare apartheid in one system with a

5:02

parttheid in another system over the

5:04

years many Israelis have argued to me

5:07

that Israel is not an apartheid state

5:10

because it’s different than South Africa

5:12

but the point is comparing Israel to

5:15

South Africa doesn’t deal with the

5:16

question of whether or not Israel is an

5:18

apartheid state you have a general

5:21

definition of what an apartheid state is

5:23

and then you have to ask yourself the

5:25

question does South Africa and does

5:27

Israel fit with that category uh of

5:30

apartheid and the same thing is true

5:32

with the genocide there’s no question

5:35

that there are fundamental differences

5:37

and I would note fundamental

5:38

similarities between the Nazi Holocaust

5:41

and what’s going on in Gaza but the fact

5:43

is that there are also fundamental

5:45

differences but if you look at the

5:47

definition of genocide uh you can

5:51

categorize what’s happening in Gaza as a

5:53

genocide and as I said if you look at

5:55

what Human Rights Watch and what Amnesty

5:58

International have done on this count

6:00

they lay it out that this is genocide

6:04

one of the what’s so ironic I guess you

6:08

can use a sort of lighter word than is

6:11

merited about what is happening is that

6:13

so much of the international law and the

6:15

conventions that emerge including the

6:17

Geneva Conventions the new Geneva

6:19

Conventions that emerged after World War

6:21

II were specifically designed to prevent

6:24

things like the Holocaust from happening

6:26

again and one of the prohibitions that

6:29

the world agreed to was a prohibition on

6:31

collective punishment the Nazis would go

6:33

to France and if there was somebody in

6:34

the resistance in a certain town they

6:36

would say “Turn them all over we’re

6:37

going to you know kill 20,000 of of the

6:40

people in the town without respect to

6:41

whether they actually did anything.”

6:42

It’s collective punishment we’re going

6:43

to punish this town if if it produces

6:46

somebody who is working against us or

6:48

has in some way taken up arms against us

6:50

and there’s a war crime prohibition on

6:53

collective punishment among a whole

6:55

using using food as a weapon of war and

6:58

starvation and the like all the things

6:59

the Israelis are doing and I kind of get

7:01

the sense and and and maybe this is

7:05

actually a pervasive propagandistic

7:07

success is that when people talk about

7:10

say the Nermberg trials or war crimes or

7:13

even the phrase never again they seem to

7:15

think that what it means is these are

7:18

principles to

7:20

protect Jews and only Jews and not the

7:23

rest of humanity and therefore you

7:25

cannot have a genocide perpetrated by

7:26

Jews only against them or you can’t have

7:28

collective punishment and war crimes

7:30

perpetrated by Jews only against them do

7:32

you think that is a kind of common ethos

7:35

in the west

7:37

i think deep down inside most Jews do

7:40

believe that that uh the word genocide

7:44

cannot be applied to anyone other uh

7:47

than the Nazis in what happened uh

7:50

between 1941 and 1945 but Glenn let me

7:55

say a word about collective punishment

7:57

and use my discussion of that term uh to

8:01

distinguish between uh how I think the

8:04

genocide against the Jews evolved and

8:07

how this genocide in Gaza evolved uh I

8:11

don’t think collective punishment just

8:12

to be clear when I was talking about

8:14

collective punishment I wasn’t necessar

8:15

necessarily using it as how the

8:17

Holocaust evolved although there was a

8:19

lot of collective punishment there even

8:21

like I said in places like Nazi occupied

8:22

France against the French resistance and

8:25

the like it was used there but I’m

8:26

definitely interested I just wanted to

8:27

be clear about what I was saying but

8:28

definitely I’d like to hear what you

8:30

have to say with this distinction

8:33

okay but I think with regard to the Nazi

8:36

Holocaust uh from the get-go there was

8:40

not uh the aim of collective punishment

8:43

was not at play the aim was to

8:46

annihilate all of European jury or at

8:49

least that portion of European jewelry

8:52

uh that the Nazis could uh capture uh so

8:56

it wasn’t collective punishment at all i

8:58

think the way the genocide in Gaza has

9:01

evolved is different uh I think after

9:04

October 7th the Israelis concluded that

9:07

if they really punished the civilian

9:10

population in Gaza that that would cause

9:14

that population to leave so I don’t

9:17

think the initial goal was to murder

9:19

huge numbers of Palestinians it was

9:22

definitely to inflict massive punishment

9:24

on the Palestinian population and to

9:28

make the place unlivable but what

9:31

happened is that the Palestinians didn’t

9:33

leave uh and the Israelis therefore had

9:36

to constantly up the ante which is

9:39

another way of saying they had to

9:41

constantly up the bombing campaign and

9:44

the end result is that over time I

9:47

believed it morphed into a genocide as I

9:50

said at the time I didn’t think in the

9:52

fall of 2023 that it was a genocide but

9:55

by late 2023 given that the Israelis had

9:59

been unable to drive the Palestinians

10:01

out and were continuing to punish the

10:04

population and were increasingly

10:06

frustrated and therefore increasingly

10:08

ramping up the punishment it morphed

10:11

into a genocide and of course it’s just

10:14

gotten worse and worse over time one

10:17

would have thought that once the

10:19

ceasefire was in place this was the day

10:21

before President Trump was inaugurated

10:24

January 19th of this year that we had

10:27

put an end to the uh uh to the genocide

10:31

and we would then just have to deal with

10:33

the suffering in Gaza and hopefully

10:36

ameliorate that to the point where fewer

10:39

people would die than we thought would

10:42

happen if the genocide continued but

10:44

then Trump began to talk about what his

10:46

view was of Gaza and he basically gave

10:50

the Israelis the green light to uh start

10:54

the campaign of genocide all over again

10:57

and that of course is what’s happened

10:58

and the Trump administration has said

11:01

hardly anything about what the Israelis

11:03

are doing and the media and uh leading

11:07

politicians in the West have said hardly

11:09

anything so the Israelis are pretty much

11:12

free to do anything they want to the

11:14

Palestinians and hardly anyone except

11:17

for a handful of people like you and I

11:19

will stand up and say that this is

11:21

fundamentally wrong and has to

11:25

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13:12

thanks for watching this clip from

13:14

System Update our live show that airs

13:16

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13:17

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hope to see you there

oooooo

Declassified UK@declassifiedUK

oooooo

api. 6

Ronald Reagan, once the Republican God, on why tariffs and protectionism are neither patriotic nor beneficial in the long term.

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1908694952642596986

oooooo

Phil Klay@PhilKlay

oooooo

Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده@RamAbdu

 

 

You repostedoooooo

jeremy scahill@jeremyscahill

Api. 5

This video was discovered on the cellphone of a paramedic who was found along with 14 other Palestinian rescue and medical workers in a mass grave in Gaza.

The Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies presented it to the UN Security Council this week.

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1908419861941727248

(6:43 m)

oooooo

Palestine Highlights@PalHighlight

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1908839825102241950

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You reooooo

ooo

“GAZA is a slaughterhouse for Humans.” Dr. Tanya Haj-Hassan.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnHb5Ki-d90)

In this conversation, Frank Barat and Tanya Haj-Hassan discuss the genocide in Gaza, focusing on Tanya’s personal experiences and observations from her recent visits. They explore the impact of violence on healthcare workers, the media’s portrayal of atrocities, and the need for a radical change in advocacy efforts. Tanya shares moments of hope amidst the destruction, the terror experienced during bombardments, and the psychological paralysis felt by those witnessing the ongoing violence from afar. The conversation highlights the complexities of the situation in Gaza and the urgent need for a shift in how the world responds to these crises. In this conversation, pediatrician Tanya Haj-Hassan discusses the profound impact of the ongoing conflict in Gaza on children, highlighting the psychological trauma and physical injuries they endure. She emphasises the importance of humanitarian aid, not just in terms of medical supplies but also in providing emotional support and a sense of normalcy. The discussion also touches on the need for solidarity and activism in the face of such atrocities, urging listeners to take personal responsibility and act against injustice. The conversation concludes with a call to recognise the growing movement for change and the necessity of organising for a better future.

Audio podcast here: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show…

Chapters

00:00 The Reality of Gaza: A Personal Connection

03:00 The Impact of Violence on Healthcare Workers

05:46 Media Representation and the Perception of Atrocities

09:04 The Need for Radical Change in Advocacy

11:58 Moments of Hope Amidst Destruction

14:58 The Experience of Terror During Bombardments

17:53 The Ongoing Siege and Its Consequences

20:47 Paralysis in the Face of Atrocities

26:57 The Impact of Conflict on Children in Gaza

34:06 The Role of Humanitarian Aid and Psychological Support

45:35 Hope and Solidarity in the Face of Atrocity

57:43 Personal Responsibility and the Call to Action

Transkripzioa:

The Reality of Gaza: A Personal Connection

0:02

hi Tanya hi um I I cannot really tell you how

0:09

um how in a way not it’s not happy but I’m I’m I’m yeah I’m really happy to to

0:15

talk to you today um because you’re one of the very rare person that has um

0:22

actually um been in Gaza uh over the last 18 months you’ve been twice and

0:27

correct me if I’m wrong um uh you were there and again correct me if I’m wrong I think in March 2024 and you went back

0:36

again um yeah I mean you just came back about 10 days ago so you spent another months in Gaza very recently and

0:46

um and I wanted to talk to you because like we have um we have we have

0:53

seen a lot of horrors on our phones and our on our TVs and on our computers is

0:59

but um but but we’ve we most of us the vast majority of us we’re not there

1:08

um I mean first I just wanted to ask you actually how how are you

1:15

Tanya you know Frank you and I had a kind of casual conversation about this earlier but

1:21

um I’m always better when I’m in Gaza or uh when I’ve recently connected with

1:27

people from Gaza Um so I think I’m definitely worse than

1:33

I was when I was inside Gaza it’s always really difficult to watch these things from the outside you feel you feel a

1:39

sense of kind of sometimes uh helplessness which I’d like to address

1:44

because I don’t think we’re helpless um but that that feeling is normal I think when you see things on your screen that

1:50

are so horrific um and the natural reaction if you have any humanity left

1:56

in you is to want to be part in some way of making us stop

2:02

um so yeah I think I’m definitely worse than I was when I was inside Gaza and then particularly today um like you I

2:10

expect uh I watched uh the video of the paramedics

2:16

um the video that was retrieved from the paramedic’s phone before he was killed

2:22

um and it’s really hard as a healthcare worker and also as a human uh to

2:31

see healthcare workers targeted uh

2:36

with such monstrosity and impunity uh and I know I knew it was happening

2:43

because I mean I’m I I work with an organization called Healthcare Workers Watch we focus on attacks on healthcare

2:49

we know they’ve been happening we know there have been you know well over uh a hundred ambulances that have been

2:56

attacked so far even at the hospital where I was based um this last time I

3:01

was in Gaza there was like a graveyard of ambulances in front of the hospital so a whole bunch of ambulances that were

3:07

crushed almost beyond recognition uh by Israeli military violence and so we knew

3:13

it was happening but I think it’s different when you hear the sounds you know you you you hear or see it unfolds

3:20

um it it it hits different and unfortunately as you know uh

3:27

international journalists are not let in palestinian journalists are often discredited or worse murdered

3:34

uh for trying to reveal uh to the world what’s happening internally

3:41

so we don’t often on western media at least uh get to see footage of these things un

3:50

happening in real time you hear about them you hear the statistics uh but you don’t actually see the crimes

3:56

themselves being committed you know for example summary executions of the paramedics we knew there were summary

4:03

executions happening all the time we know for example the paramedics that disappeared that went looking for Hindra

4:09

ultimately were found dead we just don’t have footage of that happening in real

4:15

time but I think that that particular video made me feel very sick

4:21

um very honestly ashamed and I I tried to think about why I felt so ashamed i

4:27

think I felt ashamed because in the moment when I watched the video uh I was you know I’m I’m I’m in another country

4:34

right now uh training a group of uh doctors and nurses on acute pediatric

4:40

care and it it makes me feel guilty that this isn’t my absolute priority every second of every day because I think it

4:45

should be yeah thanks Tanya and and I think what’s

4:51

what’s and we’ve we spoke about this just before as well we have experienced um you like for real

5:01

in a way because you were in Gaza and and most of us on our screens we have seen what we thought I mean first things

5:09

that no one should ever see in in a normal world but also we have seen like

5:16

you talked about Hindra Jab this was more than a year ago now when Hindraab happened the story by Hind the way she

5:23

was killed the way the emergency workers going to pick up were killed we thought

5:29

we had reached the worst of the worst but then the 15 ambulance like the 15 sort

5:37

of humanitarian workers are being killed uh reports actually say one by one then

5:44

they’re being buried with their ambulances and we seeing it live on our

5:50

screens and we think this is the

5:55

gravest horror and crime you can ever witness

6:01

so it’s crushing but also we expect the world including our leaders and to say

6:09

enough this is not possible and it’s not happening and this

6:14

is like what’s even more crushing isn’t it yeah you always assume that that that is

6:21

the red line that’s going to uh turn things around that’s going to wake people up that’s going to mean suddenly

6:28

uh there’s a shift in the tide and you’ve seen that i mean we’ve seen it over and over again with other

6:35

atrocities you know the little uh the little boy that had drowned uh during

6:41

immigration uh do you remember there’s just little things like that that you images that stick in your head images

6:47

that change the tide for the Vietnam War that change the tide for different wars of the past there doesn’t seem to be an

6:54

image an atrocity a red line crossed in the case of this genocide that is

7:02

enough to humanize uh the Palestinians that is enough for Western society to

7:09

remove its permission to exterminate the Palestinian people because at the moment unfortunately that’s exactly what we’re

7:16

seeing we’re we’re contending with with Western society giving

7:23

um permission giving permission for this to take place even in the way media

7:28

reports it with every headline there’s almost uh there there’s almost always

7:36

um a choice of words or an ending sentence that manufactures consent for

7:43

atrocities that are unjustifiable

7:49

and you know Frank I’ve been speaking to the media now for a year and a half and

7:54

when I first started I was very descriptive i I was uh doing official

8:00

communications for Doctors Without Borders i was very descriptive in what people were seeing on the ground in the

8:06

atrocities that were unfolding in the humanitarian situation or crisis and and

8:12

I I I use the language that I’m used to using as in in my profession you know I’ve been doing this for a long

8:18

time and normally that’s enough you know you let the the world you provide your

8:23

your tamage you’re you’re bearing witness and it’s enough to um to garner

8:31

uh support to relieve that suffering and I’m starting to feel that that that

8:38

maybe my approach on this is all wrong that maybe I need to change from uh what

8:44

I’m used to doing and and we all need to change from what we’re used to doing and do things differently

8:49

because we’re battling a reality where Western civilization

8:55

is willingly and knowingly we all knew about Hindra we had the audio recording

9:02

we had the different newspapers describing exactly what happened we all know what’s happening with the paramedics we know nobody can say that

9:09

they don’t know so we’re we’re battling with this reality where uh western

9:15

societies are knowingly authorizing this and so what’s the point of people like

9:21

me coming out and saying look it’s genocide look most of the kids most of the people we were resuscitating were

9:27

children uh look they attacked the hospital while I was in it they bombed the floor right above me while I was

9:34

inside the hospital i was there i saw it i know there was no militant activity in the hospital i know that there were

9:39

patients there i know they killed patients what’s the point in me saying all of these things when we know it already it’s not changing the reality on

9:46

the ground i I mean I spoke at the UN in in November

9:52

and the the point that I repeated over and over again

9:59

was that you know there there there there are no words left to convey what is

10:07

happening on the ground we used you know you reach a point where virtually every

10:12

humanitarian organization or or sorry every human uh um human rights

10:17

organization that has in and humanitarian organization actually because several did the same

10:23

investigation who who who’ve asked the question about genocide have come up with the same conclusion you know you

10:29

reach a point where there there’s almost no point in continuing to

10:37

just expose atrocities on on its own without

10:43

um with without doing something more radical and frank the word radical gets

10:49

a bad reputation but if you look up the word radical it shouldn’t have a bad

10:54

reputation what we need right now is something radical um yeah radical is

11:01

addressing the root of the problem and that’s what we need to do you know and

11:07

yeah it is and and any other way of addressing it just generates uh generates noise and uh I I worry

11:16

sometimes that that I’m inadvertently doing that that I’m being invited onto the media to talk about the humanitarian

11:22

situation and it just generates noise and and noise with no consequence

11:28

and no relief for the Palestinian people i mean you remember Muhammad Dura Frank

11:37

yeah I do there’s so many names that we can talk about you can talk about so many names over the course of

11:44

of my lifetime of Palestinian history so many names that should have been that

11:50

red line that should have been that turning point that should change the narrative that should

11:56

um uh make us question what we’re fed about this by uh Western media by

12:06

uh politicians in in so many of the countries uh that

12:12

are complicit in this yeah I I agree obviously 100% i still do

12:20

think that your voice like many others has helped has has helped bring clarity we I

12:29

think we live in a moment of extreme clarity and we’ve seen also hundreds of thousands millions of

12:37

people in the streets for 17 18 months nonstop and this is I mean this is

12:45

incredible like people don’t understand how hard it is to sustain a movement for

12:50

18 to 20 months um and this is what has happened and I think millions of people

12:56

I mean look I I was I’ve been working on on the question of Palestine for 20 years and I’ve had people in my life

13:03

that were kind of dis disinterested you know it’s too complicated i we know your

13:08

work but you know it’s too complicated blah blah blah and over the last 18 months I’ve had people I would never

13:14

have expected that reached out to me even people I really didn’t speak to anymore and you know and saying “Frank

13:20

we feel there’s something fishy going on watching the BBC and the stuff what’s really happening?” So I think people and

13:27

that’s what that’s the only thing really that sort of gives me hope and and and you know tried to make me optimistic but

13:35

um I think we just have to to to still grasp onto something and that’s the only

13:41

thing we can grasp on and and I mean we will we’ll talk about this maybe a bit later as well but I wanted to ask you

13:47

like when you came back to Gaza the second time it was when the ceasefire

13:54

had been declared um and we saw some

14:00

amazing videos and and pictures of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians

14:05

going back north where they had lost everything but anyway they were moving

14:11

back to where they belonged i was wondering what in this brief moment

14:16

because I think you came back the ceasefire was on but kind of very quickly you know Israel started bombing

14:22

again he’s firing and did you hear when I was saying like when we saw all these people coming back to the north right

14:30

yeah so yeah I was wondering when you came back what was your experience and how were

14:36

the people of Gaza feeling at this moment Frank u just for context I’d been going

14:44

to Gaza prior to October 2023 so I had visited a lot of the places uh that I’m

14:50

going to talk about in a second before um before they were destroyed by Israel

14:57

um I think for for for for people I had developed relationships with uh over

15:04

years um this period of relative respite

15:11

um had a lot of joy and hope uh in it i

15:16

think um I I met with them while I was there uh on a couple of occasions we even had a coffee one day together uh

15:24

and then when Ramadan started we we broke fast together it was just it was just

15:31

um despite like rampant destruction you know destruction that I think most

15:36

anyone I know in my life outside of Palestine uh would have felt really hopeless in

15:43

the face of um they were so filled with hope people were going back they were

15:48

trying to patch holes in the in in the walls of whatever homes they had left if their home was still standing people who

15:55

who people whose homes were not standing uh were living in tents or had moved in with neighbors and friends and relatives

16:02

but we’re talking about the day after what they would build what they wanted to subspecialize in if they were junior

16:09

doctors uh uh where they wanted their children to go to university you know there was there was a lot of hope

16:15

interjected within the grief and the loss and the grief and the loss Frank was significant you know every single

16:22

person I speak to has lost immediate family extended family friends colleagues uh their home i don’t know

16:29

anybody whose home is completely standing uh most people’s homes are partially destroyed or flattened

16:38

um so yeah I think there was a lot of hope uh

16:43

and hope despite the fact that there really never was a ceasefire i mean even

16:48

in that period you know between the end of January and and and and March

16:56

[Music] um I arrived on February 18th so from my

17:02

personal experience from February 18th until March 18th when uh

17:08

Israel reigned hell on Gaza that one month period there was actually uh daily

17:15

uh bombardment daily uh gunshot wounds so there was a lot of

17:21

uh ongoing violence from the Israeli military despite the so-called ceasefire so they were breaking it on a daily

17:28

basis but what happened it was just relative restbite so people could move

17:33

around without as much fear relatively you know um they could also buy food and

17:39

soap and shampoo and chocolates and so in addition to that that hope

17:44

hopefulness that you you sensed in people there was also um a lot of generosity so we were being invited

17:50

every day i kept joking that I was going to be one of the few people who left Gaza fatter than I was when I went in so

17:56

I was just constantly being fed uh I’m not kidding like it reached the point where it was a bit ridiculous i kept

18:02

telling them I was I don’t think I’ve ever eaten so much in my life but they were constantly trying to feed me chocolates and uh they cooked meals for

18:09

us with with chicken and meat you know they hadn’t really seen chicken and and and red meat for for almost a year and a

18:16

half at that point so um I think people were just breathing finally and

18:21

experiencing joy and things um so yeah that morning of the the 18th

18:28

was beyond the fact that it that it was terrorizing and I I don’t use that word

18:34

lightly or accidentally i genuinely think frank

18:41

that this is state sponsored terrorism in the worst possible way you know

18:51

and I feel like we’ve been using the word genocide so long it’s almost lost its weight and and you need a word

18:57

that’s heavier and I don’t know what word is heavier but it’s so sustained

19:03

i’m not you know in in my short lifetime experience I’m not used

19:08

to global establishment of something as genocide and then its

19:15

continuation so um so yeah I mean that that night was pure terror uh we we were

19:22

awoken from our sleep for those of us who had fallen asleep by this earth uh

19:29

shattering shaking uh noise the walls were shaking the windows were shaking the doors flew open uh with every blast

19:37

and um the sound was terrifying you could hear all the the the fighter jets you could hear the bombs and

19:45

you when you’ve been around have you been around aerial bombardment before

19:51

no i mean there’s there’s different there there it stimulates your senses and so

20:00

uh you know if you hear a door slam you startle right like the door slams you startled so if it’s far you you

20:07

experience what you would experience if you heard a door slam you know it would just be that sudden oh what was that

20:12

that sound but then when it gets closer and closer there’s other ways it stimulates your senses the the ground

20:19

shakes the wall shake the um if it’s really close your eardrum hits sometimes

20:25

your ears will even ring depending on how close it is and and so if you imagine I had experienced a lot of those

20:32

things the first time I was in Gaza but this is in the period of 10 15 minutes it was just continuous every single

20:38

sense you know you’re just being startled you know every every few seconds all over again and then we

20:44

walked down on the balcony in addition to all the things you were hearing and feeling you could just see the sky lighting up across the strip everywhere

20:52

our our balcony um gave us a view essentially of you know three

20:57

three dimensional you know view of uh um in three different directions and and

21:04

you could just see the sky lighting up in in all these places and the the bellows of smoke um so honestly it was

21:10

it was terrifying and there’s the the the fear uh uh there’s the fear for your

21:16

own life but to be honest I think for me that was less than the fear for what was about to come in and the just the

21:24

devastation that that little bit of hope that we were all holding on to was just suddenly in one second crushed and

21:30

crushed in the most uh um vicious way

21:36

yeah i mean you you spoke about the need to find new words to describe what’s

21:41

what’s happening or what has been and what is happening in Gaza and I think over the the next few years you know

21:48

international lawyers um and are going to and others are going to try to find

21:53

new words because we have never seen a genocide the genocide of the people that

22:00

are trapped in a cage this is madness this is sadism this is you know this is

22:06

new words and that’s also the thing when you when you are lost for words to describe words are important when you

22:13

feel there’s no words anymore you tend to be paralyzed and you just can’t speak but I

22:20

sorry if I was going to say I think paralysis is like a really important word and and that’s I don’t know about

22:26

you but every now and then when I um when I’m not inside Gaza and I see you

22:31

know the next horrific uh abhorrent thing on on my phone or on

22:37

the news I do get this sense of paralysis sometimes I just sit down and I like take a a deep breath and I you

22:44

you don’t know how to continue with your life you you you experience this you know and

22:50

it’s this you just want to scream and I’ve started cursing that’s a new thing for me i used to curse now I start

22:57

because it’s almost like you have so much anger so much rage so much sadness and you don’t know where to put it and

23:05

um I don’t recommend the cursing thing i’m just saying it’s it’s been like a a

23:11

a source of of I guess relief uh in some ways

23:16

but it it is very very paralyzing i I I couldn’t agree with that sentiment more

23:21

and I think that that your description of of it being also you know a very

23:27

exceptional situation because the population is trapped it’s very important because they they have been

23:32

trapped for some 17 years in some ways but the the level of besiegment

23:39

increases every single day you know now they’ve kind of destroyed all of Rafa

23:44

and when you look at the maps in the area they’ve they’ve taken control of as their buffer zone which is the same area

23:50

they’ve been essentially exterminating the same area they killed the paramedics in in cold blood uh uh last week that

23:59

area is the border with Egypt so what this means now is you know Gazins used

24:04

to be able to exit and enter through Egypt under often exceptional circumstances but they could still enter

24:10

and exit if they received approval a lot of goods were brought in through Egypt you know this is another level of

24:17

suffocation beyond water electricity uh uh movement of humans movement of goods

24:26

even even the even within the sea which thank God for for for the Mediterranean

24:32

because without the sea I don’t know how you would breathe in Gaza that beach is such a source of of restbite um but even

24:40

within the sea the fishermen are shot at as soon as they get out to a reasonable

24:45

distance to fish you know um so yeah it’s just it’s like it’s a different

24:51

it’s a different it’s just another layer

24:57

of of horror inflicted on Yeah

25:03

yeah like remember we were talking about before like we thought Hindra Jab was like the worst we could see remember and

25:11

I can’t remember when it was I think it was at least 8 months ago where this uh

25:17

picture on social media went viral all eyes on on Rafa

25:23

because even the US government had said Rafa is the red line and now we’re seeing pictures of Rafa you know before

25:30

and after and Rafa has gone and that’s also why what’s making

25:37

us paralyzed and and and and and kind of go crazy and and I think you know the

25:42

swearing and and the screaming I think for me and of a lot of

25:48

my friends uh going on a demo as maybe the main reason has been

25:55

to be able just to scream for about two hours to scream very loudly for two hours cuz we we just can’t really take

26:02

it anymore but I wanted to ask you because you are ped pediat

26:08

pediatrician and we know children have bought the the most not most but I’ve

26:16

been one of the you know we know Gaza most Gaza is like 50% roughly under 16

26:22

or something um can you tell me what kind of impact

26:30

this genocide barbarism of the 21st century

26:35

has had on the children of Gaza um thanks DA

26:43

i don’t know i mean what impact has it had on you Frank what impact has it had on me like we’re we’re changed forever

26:51

and it’s hard for me sometimes I’m sure it’s hard to to even start to think

26:58

about what the child in front of me has seen or is thinking or is experiencing

27:06

um I saw a video yesterday and I I’ll go back to the the children I seen personally but I saw a video yesterday

27:12

of this girl with her eyes open um and her chest being sutured uh and I think

27:18

her family had not come in with her so unclear if they survived or what had happened to them but her eyes were open

27:24

as she was being stitched with this like large gaping wound on her chest ketamine is a drug we use for sedation um

27:33

and it’s a very useful drug because it offers pain relief it also offers sedation so the the patients sleep but

27:41

they often keep their eyes open and

27:47

uh I saw so many children in that last um five plus weeks in Gaza

27:56

that had that same look of complete dissociation that you get with it’s a

28:02

dissociative agent that’s what ketamine is that you get with ketamine except I hadn’t given them any ketamine so they

28:08

would come in with some of the worst injuries imaginable and they would just look straight ahead completely

28:15

dissociated and you expect them to cry you expect them to ask for their mother you expect them to do the normal things

28:22

a four and five and six-year-old would do but they don’t they they just dissociate we had children who had

28:28

mutism so children who stop speaking they understand what you’re saying but they just stop speaking um we had

28:37

um we had children who had regressed in terms of the things that they used to do in terms of their development um we had

28:48

uh we had children obviously who cried and screamed and did all the things you expect children to do in the face of

28:54

that kind of horror but you I mean beyond the physical impacts because

29:00

these are children who’ve had inadequate nutrition who’ve had who’ve been injured

29:06

and maimed and out of organized education for now a year and a half so

29:13

beyond all the physical impacts that will have I I can’t even begin to think about the mental impact that this will

29:21

all have i Frank had never seen shredded bodies or beheaded children or uh uh

29:30

burns to the extent that we’d seen in the last year and a half before in my life as a as a pediatric intensive care

29:36

doctor i’d never seen people come into the emergency department with their foot in a box asking me to sew it back on or

29:44

people coming with uh I had seen brain matter out before but very very rarely

29:52

it was so common in Gaza that it was actually just a a something you assessed for when a

29:59

child came in with a head injury they would immediately say in Arabic uh brain matter out that was it is the brain

30:05

matter out because it was so common and if the brain matter was out it was probably worth you spending your time

30:11

resuscitating a different child because this child was prognosis was poor particularly with the with the given

30:17

resources and so I I’ve never seen those things imagine the children in Gaza seeing

30:24

these things anyone seeing these things i mean you’ve seen some of the pictures and videos have you ever seen anything

30:29

so horrific i mean it’s it’s a slaughter house for humans and and to have

30:36

children see that inflicted on strangers is horrific enough the way we’re seeing

30:42

it being inflicted on strangers imagine seeing it live and then imagine it seeing live being inflicted on your

30:49

family and you know in people always tell me “Oh it must be so hard to be a

30:55

pediatrician it’s so sad to see kids that are sick kids that are

31:00

dying i I don’t think it’s more sad than seeing an adult who’s sick or dying uh

31:05

to be honest um I find kids easier because kids are

31:12

simple they want to be around their parents because that’s where they get their security from it’s the person

31:18

they’re attached to it’s where they get their security from they want to be wellfed and they don’t want to be in

31:24

pain so their needs are very simple an adult is worrying about the future they’re worrying about death they’re

31:30

worrying about a lot of things that kids often don’t worry about it’s different for the children in Gaza because one

31:36

you’re killing and maming their parents so their parents aren’t safe or their parents are dead so you’ve removed that

31:43

level of security you can’t nourish them appropriately because they’ve been

31:49

blocking food for a year and a half and have now completely closed the borders

31:54

and you can off and you often can’t even relieve their pain because you don’t have enough agents to do that again

32:01

because Israel is blocking everything from entering and so you can’t offer them the very basic things that they

32:07

need and on top of that they’ve reached the level of forced maturity that most

32:15

children at that age don’t have i don’t know if you have any children in your life but when they’re three and four

32:20

they don’t often ask about death or think about death or think about their own death children in Gaza talk about it

32:26

all the time they they feel like it’s this inevitable thing you have children ages you know who’ve just learned how to

32:31

write writing their own will their own will saying you know give this toy to if

32:38

I die please give this toy to so and so and please give this to so and so because they’re expecting to die so on

32:44

all those levels children in Gaza are different and so when I tell you I find children easier to deal with when

32:50

they’re critically ill because I know how to attend to their needs in a way that I

32:57

find it very difficult to attend to the needs of an adult it’s not the case for children in Gaza

33:02

because because we’ve we’ve forced them out of childhood

33:11

h Yeah i’ve got two two boys actually yeah um but

33:18

um my my friend Iman Marifi who who’s a nurse and was in Gaza in January

33:26

February 2024 said that when she was preparing to

33:31

go to Gaza she packed all the medical equipment she could find um everything

33:38

um she left and she w was due to go back a few months later she said which was

33:45

about 6 months later and she said this time around I only packed sweets teddy

33:51

bears um chocolates because I realized no I

33:57

mean no medical equip you know the worst was the psychological trauma people

34:03

needed to be held people needed to be cuddled people need to laugh is that what you felt as well

34:12

i I kind of did the same actually like my uh I went with mainly a surgical team

34:18

this time and they were constantly making fun of me because I would just pull out balloons and games and

34:24

lollipops and all sorts of things for my bag um for for exactly that reason i also feel

34:30

like I mean I did bring some uh medical equipment um unfortunately I I I thought

34:37

I was going during a ceasefire period and when a lot of things were getting into Gaza

34:44

um and that changed very quickly uh after March 18th

34:50

um because in the period of almost one night we finished most of the things

34:56

that we had the stock that we had in the emergency department you know when you just think about um gauze and

35:02

medications and I mean we finished it so quickly i bought I brought a handful of

35:08

these military grade tourniquets for when you have life-threatening bleeding we used them all that first night i

35:14

called within an hour of being in the emergency department i called the pediatric intensive care unit so Ned

35:20

Hospital is three buildings um the emergency department that receives all

35:25

the trauma cases pediatric and adult is in the main building the same building that was bombed by Israel on the 23rd of

35:31

March the building next to it is a maternity and child’s um care building

35:37

uh and that’s where the pediatric ICU is within an hour of being in the emergency department I had rung the pediatric ICU

35:45

saying “Please bring all the equipment you can we’ve run out of equipment to care for kids.” So the emergency

35:51

department has obviously their stock for children because they receive all the pediatric trauma cases but we there were

35:57

so many children Frank and we used most of the equipment and so the pediatric

36:02

ICU team came running down with a box of things that we very quickly used as well

36:08

um so yeah I I did like your friends I brought mostly you know things to bring bring some level of restbite i brought

36:14

little decorations cuz I knew that Ramadan and Eid were coming up and I figured a lot of people were living in

36:20

tents and and you know it’s a period of the year where people decorate and they celebrate and and I

36:29

uh I was trying to think of ways to to create a sense of positivity and and

36:36

hopefulness so I I mostly packed that sort of thing um and the limited amount

36:42

of medical equipment that I brought was very quickly used up and frank we’re not you’re not allowed to take in medical

36:47

equipment or medications unless they’re for personal use so I mean that’s the

36:53

absurdity of things as well is uh so many of the things that are not allowed

36:59

in or allowed out and we could talk about that in a second but so many of the things that are not allowed in are

37:05

not dual use they’re not things that can be used for any military purposes they’re not allowed in because they’re

37:10

life-saving or because they help people reconstruct their lives um so yeah

37:19

um the other the other reason I I I kind of agree with your colleague

37:26

is you know I have people tell me or message me saying “I wish I had a skill

37:32

set you know I wish I could go in there and save lives like you guys do.” I don’t know if we save lives Frank i

37:38

mean that might be true in a situation where you have a finite insult you know

37:43

you have an earthquake or a crisis and you go and you treat as many patients as possible and you support the health care

37:48

system because it’s overwhelmed and we’re certainly doing those things

37:55

but every child that was admitted to the pediatric ICU I’m a pediatric intensive care doctor so after that you know

38:02

period in the emergency department I then went to my my home base which is the the intensive care unit and then I

38:07

took care of the children who were injured on the 18th and admitted to the ICU all of the children that we admitted

38:15

to the ICU thankfully survived many of them remained but they survived

38:21

um countless other children died in the emergency department that night and they survived thanks to the very hard work of

38:28

the pediatric intensive care team there and

38:34

um there there was a moment where I felt proud of that i said you know uh the team worked so hard and

38:41

[Music] um and and I felt I think we felt proud of it too because the the director of

38:48

the hospital came by and was congratulating us on all the good care that we provided despite it being like a

38:53

really busy busy busy period and I think it made the team feel good but but the reality

38:59

is one of the patients whose one-year-old uh is leaving the ICU without a mother having received very

39:06

extensive abdominal surgery at one year of age having still a piece of shrapnel

39:12

in her lung as a souvenir another girl is leaving without

39:17

any of her sisters cuz they were all killed with a mother and father who are both injured with no spleen because it

39:24

had to be removed with multiple injuries to her bowel to her liver and the worst injury to her brain

39:31

she doesn’t move the right side of her body and she struggles to speak it’s very clear that she understands us but she’s struggling to produce

39:38

words and a boy is leaving probably and I’m not sure I’ll have to follow and see

39:43

what happened to him but uh the orthopedic surgeons were concerned that

39:49

he wouldn’t that he would require amputations of one if not both of his legs

39:55

um and uh after all of his siblings were killed by one 14year-old sister so you

40:02

wonder as a healthc care provider you know how much good you’re doing um not

40:08

only because they’re leaving the ICU maimed sometimes orphaned and with

40:16

having lost so many of the people that they’re closest to but also because they’re leaving the ICU back into

40:24

genocide you know so a lot of the people I cared for last

40:29

year in March uh are either dead or or injured again after we

40:37

discharged them last March so you know you wonder what kind you

40:43

know how much good you’re doing medically and I think like your colleague a lot of the reasons we go is

40:51

our solidarity bearing witness um and maybe providing some level of of

41:00

restbite and the things that we can bring for people in the in the conversations that we can have while

41:05

we’re there in in hopefully showing uh Palestinians that the world hasn’t uh

41:12

forgot about them um and at least from a healthc care standpoint I think the solidarity is very very important

41:18

because these teams have been working nonstop for a year and a half

41:23

and honestly Frank they’re the most remarkable people I’ve ever worked with

41:33

and they really don’t deserve what’s happening to them when I tell you they’re the most remarkable people I’ve ever worked with I really mean it you

41:39

know just just right now while I’ve been on this interview I can see that I’ve received

41:46

text messages from from a couple of uh of the doctors that I worked with there one of them lost his mother and

41:55

most of his siblings a lot of his uncles and cousins at the beginning so October

42:02

2023 um while we were there he was on the phone with his uh father in Gaza

42:09

City and his father and he was telling his father “As soon as I finish my shift I’m going to come see you guys.” And his

42:16

father said “No no don’t it’s dangerous don’t don’t come just stay where you are.” He hung up and was having a

42:22

conversation with his colleagues about whether he should go or not and then about 10 minutes later received a phone

42:28

call from his brother saying that their house they were sitting outside of their

42:34

their house and kind of just chatting and that they were bombed and his father was killed his uh younger brother was

42:42

killed and his sister uh receal injury and is now not moving her leg arm i mean

42:49

we found out uh hours later but the consequences of her injuries but she she’s not moving her arms or her legs

42:56

and so essentially he’s lost his entire family 24 members of his family a year

43:02

and a half ago and now the rest of his nuclear family with the exception of a

43:08

sister who’s paralyzed for life um and a brother

43:14

and the last 3 days they’ve been finishing in the operating room around 1:30 2:00 in the morning because they’ve

43:19

been receiving so many casualties he’s still there doing that you know having lost his entire family he’s still at

43:27

work caring for his for his patients that they are exhausted and yet they

43:32

continue to do it march March 18th within about four hours of being in the

43:39

emergency department I was laded i had to sit down you know we had been awake the entire night we worked non-stop it

43:47

was chaos it’s physically exhausting it’s emotionally exhausting to constantly see death and loss and death

43:54

and loss and death and loss and I I had a home to go to i don’t have children

44:00

that I’m worrying about you know whether they’ll be killed while I’m at work i’m not worrying about the my entire

44:07

livelihood or extending extended family being exterminated any second and I was

44:13

exhausted i can’t imagine what it’s like for them after a year and a half

44:18

so I think you know uh probably the most important reason we go is just to to

44:24

to work with you know these remarkable people and and um and provide a level of

44:32

of solidarity that’s easier to provide in person

44:40

thanks Daniel thanks for for for sharing sharing this with me i I um I wanted to

44:46

end with asking you about um you’ve you’ve touched upon it but

44:53

um what is left to say to the world and

45:00

I sort of divide the world between the people of the world

45:05

and a lot of them have expressed incredible solidarity with the Palestinian people uh but have

45:12

felt complete useless less most of the time and and you you started pretty much

45:18

the interview by saying like I want to address this you know we are not useless but what is left to tell to the world

45:25

and and and then this 1% of the what we call the decision makers the one that

45:31

have been enabling supporting complicit in this genocide is it even worth talking to

45:37

them anymore [Music]

45:48

i’m not sure how to answer the latter question

45:53

um you know every now and then I get invited to do an interview by a a media source that’s been manufacturing consent

46:00

for this from the very beginning and I have to ask myself that question do I just reject it on the basis that they’re

46:06

hopeless it’s a lost cause they have no journalistic integrity left i almost

46:12

don’t want to get on their show because

46:18

I out of principle um but then at the same time they have a

46:24

wide viewership and they have [Music] capacity in theory uh to to reach a a

46:32

broader group of people or in the case of politicians to affect change immediately you know I think in the long

46:38

run Frank we need to create new systems

46:44

um liberated systems systems that don’t rely on you know old colonial um white

46:52

supremacist ways and that’s going to take time and I think that’s true of universities i

46:58

think it’s true of media agencies it’s it’s true of journalism it’s true of the film industry it’s it’s true of the

47:04

medical indust you know the the medical field as well we we need to we need to be creating um waves of social change

47:14

that are not suppressed silenced and

47:25

um by and and and and kind of uh what’s

47:30

the right word shifted I guess away from you know

47:44

by kind of uh colonial undertones and col you know things that we just can’t

47:50

shake from so many of these systems and the train the same thing is true of humanitarian organizations too you know

47:55

this this infiltrates every single space [Music]

48:01

um that is going to take a radical change

48:07

and hold on i’m going to actually just read the definition of radical radicalize or uh yeah people need to be

48:15

reminded really of what that means yeah I think it’s very important

48:20

manufacturing consent starts with uh redefining words right uh and like

48:27

making them sounds very scary when actually they’re pretty good but I mean

48:35

if Yeah so it’s advocating or based on thorough or complete political or social

48:41

change representing or supporting an an extreme or progressive section of a political party a radical person is a

48:47

person who advocates thorough or complete political or social change

48:53

um and then in chemistry this is my favorite definition

48:59

a group of atoms behaving as a unit in a number of compounds anyway I bring that

49:05

up just because I think just an answer to your question about hope um seems very appropriate to bring it up now I I

49:13

derive uh hope and lack of hopelessness from the fact that this movement is growing and growing in number it’s

49:19

growing and growing in strength and it’s growing also in in in commitment so there’s so many people who were scared

49:26

um of speaking out who felt that they were silenced uh

49:32

who are now feeling like there’s nothing to lose that

49:37

they that they could not live with their own soul if they didn’t risk what they

49:42

need to risk at this point and I think um that brings me hope because you know

49:48

all these atoms coming together um I think eventually uh can’t can

49:55

provoke change change regardless of what politicians want um or or what you know

50:04

uh power underlies them i mean I was thinking the same thing about the position that the United States has

50:10

taken recently i think if enough other countries unite against that position

50:15

then uh there’s yeah there’s there’s

50:21

there’s there’s hope that you can overcome you

50:27

know powers that I’m so sorry I’ve been speaking French all day i think I told you before now I’m not more

50:34

no please please like you know it all makes a lot of sense

50:42

i just think that hope hope comes from the fact that the this wave of change keeps

50:50

growing but I think we need to remember that i I my sister messages me every

50:55

every few days saying “I don’t know what to do you know I wish I had your skill set or I don’t know what to do i keep

51:01

posting on social media i don’t know what to do there there’s so much we can do there’s so much we can do we just

51:06

need to dedicate the time and space for it you need to organize um if you look back at every atrocity of the past it

51:14

was people who organized and they organized in in in creative ways um and

51:20

they were willing to sacrifice they were willing to sacrifice their position they were willing to sacrifice um their

51:28

salary they were willing to sacrifice whatever it took um and I think we’re all at so many of us Frank are at that

51:35

point now where where we’re willing to sacrifice whatever it takes

51:42

thanks Tanya i I I um you know I mean you’ve got a we all

51:48

have a choice you know and at the end of our lives um because we’re not eternal

51:53

even Musk probably thinks he’s eternal and he finds something to leave until

51:59

he’s like 200 years old but we have a a choice right and I think our soul is

52:04

what makes us right and I think I’m just trying to think and again I don’t want

52:11

to I’m just trying to think and say like to people that keep saying we’ve lost we

52:17

have lost that’s it it’s too late there’s no alternative we’ve lost can you really win can someone

52:24

really calls himself a w can someone responsible for genocide can call himself a

52:30

winner no they’re dead inside you know you can’t you’re not a human anymore if you have no heart or no soul and I think

52:38

by just keep us keep trying even if it’s just you know keep

52:45

trying to get to this place we want to get to at least it’s um we you know

52:51

we’ll have said you know at least we’ve tried we’ve tried very hard and um and you and and thank you so much

53:00

for for having shared Yeah sorry go no I was just gonna say I want to catch you

53:06

up yeah no no no no i I wanted to add one one quick thing because I think um

53:12

we’re probably coming to to to the end now but I’ve said this before but I really

53:18

think this is going to be the source of shame of of so many

53:24

generations that have lived through this right now and and I don’t know I think back to

53:30

atrocities of the past and I always told myself “Wow if I were alive then and I

53:38

knew it was happening I really hope I wouldn’t be wouldn’t have been one of those people

53:45

that felt like it was far far from me and didn’t impact me or worse uh felt

53:54

scared to speak up or scared to do something about it or felt too too busy

53:59

to do anything about it and it happens all the time i mean I I I think back to

54:05

other atrocities that have happened in our lifetime whether it’s uh what’s happening in Sudan right now or the

54:11

Congo or um uh the Rohhinga or the the Weaguers or the Iraq

54:19

war or the Syria war you know I have every single you know and and you know you can sort of cover global geography

54:25

and talk about all the atrocities that have happened and I think back and I I wish I was more

54:32

alert then i wish I knew exactly what was happening i wish I understood better um the reality is all of that

54:40

information is out there now and it’s so available on social media and it’s available through other sources like

54:47

yourself who’ve tried very hard from from the very beginning uh to create

54:53

spaces to to talk about what’s happening to reveal what’s happening to correct uh

54:58

historical inaccuracies and the reality is now that we know what’s happening we

55:06

are living that atrocity in real time and in 10 years 15 years 20 years when

55:12

what you know whatever it takes for the full reconciliation of what actually happened

55:19

um or the full sort of uh documentation and exposition of what

55:24

happened um whenever that happens you’re you’re

55:30

going to have to reckon with what you were doing today during this period because you do know and I know and

55:36

everybody watching this knows and we we we don’t have any excuses we don’t

55:43

what’s happening at Colombia what’s happening uh at uh New York University

55:49

what’s happening at so many at Harvard what’s happening at so many you know uh um universities in the United States for

55:58

example might make people feel scared what’s happening at the US border might make people feel scared and I’ve seen it

56:04

in a lot of my uh American friends and colleagues you know where they’ll say “Oh I don’t want to speak up because I

56:09

need to go back to the United States or I don’t want to speak up because I’m on X visa or I don’t want to speak up

56:15

because is that is that is that the excuse that you want is that an excuse you’ll be able to live with in 10 15

56:21

years when you have to reckon with this that you didn’t want to risk something personal?” Um I know for me I I I hope I

56:29

don’t ever create excuses for myself i know I do i think that’s natural

56:35

um but you have to live with those excuses um and and you’re in action

56:47

today thanks DA um there’s no better

56:52

ending to in a way leave people with this question I think so uh thanks

56:58

really a million for having you know giving me the time

57:04

to to share all of this thanks DA thank you Frank

oooooo

ooo

Prof. John Mearsheimer: Why Israel’s Destruction of Gaza is “A Genocide”

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uypAZMwzJ9U)

This is a clip from our show SYSTEM UPDATE, now airing every weeknight at 7pm ET on Rumble. You can watch the full episode for FREE here: https://rumble.com/v6rnv2x-system-upd.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

[Music]

0:06

all right we previewed the discussion

0:08

that we’re about to have with Professor

0:09

John Mirshimer so I just want to get

0:11

right into that professor Mirshimer

0:13

thank you so much for taking the time to

0:14

talk to us it’s always great to see you

0:17

great to be here Glenn you know I

0:20

actually thought about this morning and

0:21

this afternoon starting by talking to

0:23

you about the free speech crisis and the

0:25

kind of assaults on academic freedom

0:27

taking place in America academia i of

0:30

course want to get to that with you but

0:31

I realize afterwards it’s almost

0:33

impossible not to begin with the ongoing

0:35

atrocities in Gaza because the scale of

0:37

it the horror of it the fact the United

0:39

States is directly responsible for it I

0:41

think really requires that it be the

0:44

first topic that we talk about so I

0:46

guess my question is to you and we’ve

0:48

talked about before what you think the

0:51

Israeli motives might be in essentially

0:54

destroying all of Gaza destroying

0:56

civilian life in all of Gaza to me it

0:58

seems like there’s no doubt any longer

0:59

what their intentions are they’re saying

1:01

it there’s really only really one one

1:04

possibility i’m just interested in your

1:06

uh view of what that is

1:09

yeah I think there is only one possible

1:12

goal here given what they’re doing and

1:14

that is to ethnically cleanse uh Gaza

1:18

and what they’re trying to do is make

1:20

Gaza unlivable and that in their story

1:24

will force the Palestinians to leave uh

1:28

but uh other than that I can’t see what

1:31

possible motive they would have for

1:33

continuing this offensive you know I

1:36

I’ve seen the sentiment around a lot

1:38

i’ve heard it from people I I like and

1:41

trust and and I’m colleagues with and

1:43

friends and I certainly feel it the same

1:45

way it’s like at some point you just

1:47

almost feel like you’re out of words out

1:49

of horror and disgust and rage to

1:52

express the more you see i do think it’s

1:55

gotten worse in terms of the resumption

1:58

you could probably compare it to the

1:59

early couple months where there was just

2:00

indiscriminate bombing and huge numbers

2:02

of people killed we’re kind of back to

2:03

that but on some level even worse when

2:05

you add in the purposeful blockading of

2:08

any food getting in the use of mass

2:10

starvation as a form of collective

2:12

punishment and driving people out

2:14

forcing them to side between ch starving

2:16

to death or or leaving and giving that

2:18

land of theirs to the Israelis how do

2:21

you compare what we’re seeing in in Gaza

2:24

to other atrocities and war crimes and

2:28

the like that say we’ve seen over the

2:30

last uh several decades

2:34

well I think this is a genocide and I

2:36

would put it in the same category as

2:39

what happened in Rwanda what happened in

2:41

Cambodia and what happened uh in World

2:44

War II with the Nazi Holocaust uh I mean

2:47

the basic goal here is to uh kill a huge

2:52

number of people in the Palestinian

2:55

population and that I think easily

2:57

qualifies as a genocide and in fact

3:01

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty

3:03

International have both done lengthy

3:05

reports that lay out the case for

3:07

genocide and I find those cases

3:10

compelling so I think this is a lot like

3:13

those other cases

3:15

i know a lot of people even people who

3:18

might be uneasy or even critical of what

3:22

the Israelis are doing in Gaza

3:23

nonetheless have a a very kind of

3:24

visceral almost primal opposition to

3:27

applying the word genocide to what the

3:30

Israelis are doing in Gaza and they may

3:32

say things like “Oh look if their goal

3:33

were to just wipe them all out and

3:35

eradicate them they have the weaponry to

3:36

do so and they have not done that yet.”

3:39

and and and I guess some people at the

3:42

same time say “Does it really matter if

3:44

if this is called a genocide?” What I

3:46

know you’ve used that word before you

3:47

just use it again what is your

3:49

understanding of exactly what a genocide

3:51

is how do we recognize that and why does

3:53

it apply or I guess why is it important

3:54

to use that term for this case

3:58

well there’s a clear-cut definition in

4:00

international law uh which was by and

4:03

large established as a result of the

4:06

Nazi genocide in World War II and it

4:09

involves you know focusing on uh killing

4:13

a large portion of a particular

4:16

population that population could be

4:18

based on ethnicity or religion or what

4:21

have you but the point is that what

4:23

you’re aiming to do is kill a huge chunk

4:27

of a particular population now that can

4:31

happen rapidly it can happen slowly but

4:34

does that really matter if you were to

4:36

kill three million uh people in a

4:40

particular group over five years would

4:43

that be any different than killing those

4:45

people over five months i think the

4:47

answer is no uh and I think you

4:51

therefore really can’t compare genocides

4:55

with one another the same way you can’t

4:58

compare apartheid in one system with a

5:02

parttheid in another system over the

5:04

years many Israelis have argued to me

5:07

that Israel is not an apartheid state

5:10

because it’s different than South Africa

5:12

but the point is comparing Israel to

5:15

South Africa doesn’t deal with the

5:16

question of whether or not Israel is an

5:18

apartheid state you have a general

5:21

definition of what an apartheid state is

5:23

and then you have to ask yourself the

5:25

question does South Africa and does

5:27

Israel fit with that category uh of

5:30

apartheid and the same thing is true

5:32

with the genocide there’s no question

5:35

that there are fundamental differences

5:37

and I would note fundamental

5:38

similarities between the Nazi Holocaust

5:41

and what’s going on in Gaza but the fact

5:43

is that there are also fundamental

5:45

differences but if you look at the

5:47

definition of genocide uh you can

5:51

categorize what’s happening in Gaza as a

5:53

genocide and as I said if you look at

5:55

what Human Rights Watch and what Amnesty

5:58

International have done on this count

6:00

they lay it out that this is genocide

6:04

one of the what’s so ironic I guess you

6:08

can use a sort of lighter word than is

6:11

merited about what is happening is that

6:13

so much of the international law and the

6:15

conventions that emerge including the

6:17

Geneva Conventions the new Geneva

6:19

Conventions that emerged after World War

6:21

II were specifically designed to prevent

6:24

things like the Holocaust from happening

6:26

again and one of the prohibitions that

6:29

the world agreed to was a prohibition on

6:31

collective punishment the Nazis would go

6:33

to France and if there was somebody in

6:34

the resistance in a certain town they

6:36

would say “Turn them all over we’re

6:37

going to you know kill 20,000 of of the

6:40

people in the town without respect to

6:41

whether they actually did anything.”

6:42

It’s collective punishment we’re going

6:43

to punish this town if if it produces

6:46

somebody who is working against us or

6:48

has in some way taken up arms against us

6:50

and there’s a war crime prohibition on

6:53

collective punishment among a whole

6:55

using using food as a weapon of war and

6:58

starvation and the like all the things

6:59

the Israelis are doing and I kind of get

7:01

the sense and and and maybe this is

7:05

actually a pervasive propagandistic

7:07

success is that when people talk about

7:10

say the Nermberg trials or war crimes or

7:13

even the phrase never again they seem to

7:15

think that what it means is these are

7:18

principles to

7:20

protect Jews and only Jews and not the

7:23

rest of humanity and therefore you

7:25

cannot have a genocide perpetrated by

7:26

Jews only against them or you can’t have

7:28

collective punishment and war crimes

7:30

perpetrated by Jews only against them do

7:32

you think that is a kind of common ethos

7:35

in the west

7:37

i think deep down inside most Jews do

7:40

believe that that uh the word genocide

7:44

cannot be applied to anyone other uh

7:47

than the Nazis in what happened uh

7:50

between 1941 and 1945 but Glenn let me

7:55

say a word about collective punishment

7:57

and use my discussion of that term uh to

8:01

distinguish between uh how I think the

8:04

genocide against the Jews evolved and

8:07

how this genocide in Gaza evolved uh I

8:11

don’t think collective punishment just

8:12

to be clear when I was talking about

8:14

collective punishment I wasn’t necessar

8:15

necessarily using it as how the

8:17

Holocaust evolved although there was a

8:19

lot of collective punishment there even

8:21

like I said in places like Nazi occupied

8:22

France against the French resistance and

8:25

the like it was used there but I’m

8:26

definitely interested I just wanted to

8:27

be clear about what I was saying but

8:28

definitely I’d like to hear what you

8:30

have to say with this distinction

8:33

okay but I think with regard to the Nazi

8:36

Holocaust uh from the get-go there was

8:40

not uh the aim of collective punishment

8:43

was not at play the aim was to

8:46

annihilate all of European jury or at

8:49

least that portion of European jewelry

8:52

uh that the Nazis could uh capture uh so

8:56

it wasn’t collective punishment at all i

8:58

think the way the genocide in Gaza has

9:01

evolved is different uh I think after

9:04

October 7th the Israelis concluded that

9:07

if they really punished the civilian

9:10

population in Gaza that that would cause

9:14

that population to leave so I don’t

9:17

think the initial goal was to murder

9:19

huge numbers of Palestinians it was

9:22

definitely to inflict massive punishment

9:24

on the Palestinian population and to

9:28

make the place unlivable but what

9:31

happened is that the Palestinians didn’t

9:33

leave uh and the Israelis therefore had

9:36

to constantly up the ante which is

9:39

another way of saying they had to

9:41

constantly up the bombing campaign and

9:44

the end result is that over time I

9:47

believed it morphed into a genocide as I

9:50

said at the time I didn’t think in the

9:52

fall of 2023 that it was a genocide but

9:55

by late 2023 given that the Israelis had

9:59

been unable to drive the Palestinians

10:01

out and were continuing to punish the

10:04

population and were increasingly

10:06

frustrated and therefore increasingly

10:08

ramping up the punishment it morphed

10:11

into a genocide and of course it’s just

10:14

gotten worse and worse over time one

10:17

would have thought that once the

10:19

ceasefire was in place this was the day

10:21

before President Trump was inaugurated

10:24

January 19th of this year that we had

10:27

put an end to the uh uh to the genocide

10:31

and we would then just have to deal with

10:33

the suffering in Gaza and hopefully

10:36

ameliorate that to the point where fewer

10:39

people would die than we thought would

10:42

happen if the genocide continued but

10:44

then Trump began to talk about what his

10:46

view was of Gaza and he basically gave

10:50

the Israelis the green light to uh start

10:54

the campaign of genocide all over again

10:57

and that of course is what’s happened

10:58

and the Trump administration has said

11:01

hardly anything about what the Israelis

11:03

are doing and the media and uh leading

11:07

politicians in the West have said hardly

11:09

anything so the Israelis are pretty much

11:12

free to do anything they want to the

11:14

Palestinians and hardly anyone except

11:17

for a handful of people like you and I

11:19

will stand up and say that this is

11:21

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thanks for watching this clip from

13:14

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