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NATO Endangers Security Of The Whole World | German Parliamentarian Sevim Dagdelen

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E0zVrGzcyw)

Republished from the “Nachdenkseiten”, one of Germany’s last really independent and peace-oriented news portals. Support their work here: https://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?page_i…

Sevim Dagdelen is a member of the German Bundestag (Parliament) and member of Sarah Wagenknecht’s new party (BSW). In her newest work, Sevim Dagdalen explains why NATO is not only in an existential crisis, but is about to drag Europe and maybe even the entire world into a catastrophic war if its members to not change course.

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not than

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San D see

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Miss dlin nice to have you here on April

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4th the champagne corks were popping

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probably even more so in Brussels at the

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NATO headquarters there was chocolate

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cake and later at the sasor which is the

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NATO Supreme Allied Commander there was

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a Galla dinner with Specialties from all

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NATO member countries so from the

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outside it looked like a successful

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birthday party you have now also decided

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to contribute something to this NATO

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birthday however it seems to be less of

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a eulogy and more of a settling of

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scores with the alliance of

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values that sounds quite harsh at first

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does the old lady NATO really deserves

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such a reckoning on her

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75th

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yeah yes first of all it must be said

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that 75 years of NATO especially as an

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organization could be a reason to

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celebrate however I would say that NATO

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is in a really difficult if not

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existential Cris crisis it faces very

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big challenges due to its policy of

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expansion and

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escalation by expansion I mean the

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geographical extension towards Asia it’s

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not just about the North Atlantic

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anymore so the North Atlantic Treaty but

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NATO is also expanding towards the Indo

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Pacific so we are dealing with an

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overstretching of NATO at the same time

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it increasingly relies on escalation and

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brings us to the brink of a third world

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war this happens for example through the

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proxy war against Russia in Ukraine

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where there is a Reliance on the use of

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ever heavier weapons it’s not just about

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helmets or bulletproof vests or tanks

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anymore but also about demands for the

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deployment of their own troops the

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French President recently said that NATO

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is brain dead I would say it’s not just

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brain dead but has completely missed its

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purpose has outlived itself as a relic

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of the Cold War and endangers the

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security of the world and all

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populations

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that’s why of course I sat down to take

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a closer look at NATO on its 75th

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Anniversary given the challenges and

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crises it faces NATO increasingly relies

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on myths to legitimize itself these

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myths include the self-perception as a

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defense Alliance as an alliance of

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values as an alliance of democracies

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that rely on the rule of law and human

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rights but let’s stick to democracy at

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least from the outside looking in I

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would say that as far as I can see

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indeed all member states are at least

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formally representative democracies and

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also have a somewhat functioning rule of

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law so where does your criticism begin

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you say that’s all not true that is as

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you said a pure myth this aspect of

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democracy human rights Freedom which is

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also manifested in the founding Charter

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where do you see the

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discrepancy yeah

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yes NATO was founded in 1949 with the

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USA and Canada as well as other European

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countries at the Forefront one of these

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countries was Portugal under the fascist

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dictator Salazar he ruled until the

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Carnation revolution in

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1974 and it was not a problem that he

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was a fascist dictator who left a trail

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of blood through Africa with his

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colonialist policy and relied on

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repression and Terror against opponents

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and leftists domestically

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in my opinion this represents a blatant

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contradiction to NATO’s self-image which

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claims to have always been an alliance

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of democracies and constitutional States

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at the same time it was also not a

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problem to conclude military agreements

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through NATO’s leading power the USA

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with the fascist Spanish dictator Franco

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or take turkey which is still a member

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of NATO today and experienced several

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military coups in the 1980s during which

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hundreds of thousands were imprisoned

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for their political activities because

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they were for example leftists or trade

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unionists this was also not a problem

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although it was a military

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dictatorship the same applies to the

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military coup in Greece here too one can

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hardly speak of democracy or the rule of

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law and that was never a problem for

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NATO and it still isn’t to this day

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for example it is known that turkey

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under President erdogan has supplied

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islamist organizations such as Isis

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Al-Qaeda or alar al-sham with weapons in

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the war against Assad’s regime in Syria

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NATO has no problem with islamist

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terrorist organizations being supported

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by its member states by serving in these

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countries as staging and Retreat areas

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being cared for in hospitals when they

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are injured or being equipped with

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weapons possibly even with weapons from

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other NATO countries like the Federal

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Republic of Germany it is important to

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dispel these myths of NATO NATO was

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never an alliance of democracies and

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constitutional States this is evident

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today as well the leading power of NATO

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the USA acts internationally at its own

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discretion it has attacked countries

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worldwide violating international law as

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in the invasion of Iraq under a

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coalition of the Willing in the last 20

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years the USA in the so-called war on

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terror is responsible for over 4.5

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million deaths as studies from the

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prestigious Brown University in Rhode

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Island USA show this can hardly be

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described as a policy of respecting

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human rights or

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democracy perhaps to stay on the topic

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of the rule of law in this attempt to

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deconstruct the NATO myths you also

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refer to Julian Assange as a prisoner of

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NATO is it really Justified to directly

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address NATO’s role in this way I mean

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the main responsible parties are

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actually the USA and Great Britain from

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this to conclude that one can actually

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describe Assange as a prisoner of NATO

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how would you see

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that so first of all regarding the

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self-perception of NATO you say yes the

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principle of one for all all for one

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applies This Means A Part stands for the

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whole and the whole for a part it

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follows that we can all be held liable

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together the persecution of Julian

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Assange a journalist who made public us

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war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan has

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led to him being deprived of his freedom

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for 12 years now for 5 years he has been

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in a high security prison in Great

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Britain and in the USA he faces 175

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years in prison which is essentially

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equivalent to a death sentence and all

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because he made war crimes public for

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which there has been no atonement to

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this day they remain unpunished the

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responsible parties like the US war

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criminal George W bush or Tony Blair

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from Great Britain live freely in their

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Villas Julian Assange on the other hand

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who exposed the war crimes for which

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they are ultimately responsible sits in

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captivity of course it is true that the

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USA represents the leading power within

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NATO thus one can equate NATO with the

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USA

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is she is the power that ultimately uses

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NATO as a geopolitical instrument NATO

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has been an instrument of the USA since

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its Inception the model for this was the

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interamerican treaty the Pax Americana

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to secure the West as a sphere of

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influence for the USA and to create the

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instrument NATO for this

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purpose in fact it may be that NATO

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member countries give up their

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sovereignty by becoming members of NATO

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they Place themselves under the

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leadership of the USA therefore what the

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leading power of the USA does such as

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the violation of international law in

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Iraq or the political persecution of the

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journalist Julian Assange is also

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attributable to the entire

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NATO especially since none of the NATO

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member states has publicly criticized

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the

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USA the NATO council did not even meet

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to criticize the invasion of Iraq it was

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not a topic at all on the contrary it

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was quasi also supported although

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officially not a member of the Coalition

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of the Willing in the Iraq War for

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example overflight rights were granted

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and the use of military bases also on

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German soil was

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allowed in my opinion it is legitimate

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and Justified to attribute the actions

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of the USA to the other NATO member

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states as well

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I would like to address another Point

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namely the myths of NATO a major myth is

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that NATO is a defense Alliance on the

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75th anniversary of NATO we also

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remember the 25th anniversary of NATO’s

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war of aggression against the Federal

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Republic of

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Yugoslavia this war was a clear

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violation of the UN Charter’s

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prohibition of force as there was no

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resolution from the UN Security Council

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the former German Chancellor ghard

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Schroeder has publicly aded that he had

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no mandate for the attack during which

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among other things television stations

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in Serbia in Belgrade were bombed and

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the Chinese Embassy was allegedly hit by

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mistake since this attack on Yugoslavia

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and later missions such as in

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Afghanistan or the regime change war in

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2011 in Libya it is evident that NATO is

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an alliance for

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Warfare perhaps perhaps we should

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briefly revisit the role of the USA

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within

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NATO you also described this

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constellation as an Empire with its

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vassels there is a well-known quote by

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Lionel Isme the first NATO Secretary

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General he said that NATO was founded to

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keep the Germans down the Russians out

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and the Americans in would you say that

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this assessment of NATO’s founding still

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holds true today or have there been

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changes in NATO’s function in this

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regard

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well the goal or the purpose that Isme

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formulated back then has been fulfilled

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if one looks at the development of the

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last few decades after the end of the

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Cold War one is reminded of the charter

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of Paris in which a new European

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security order a common European house

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was advocated the idea was also to

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realize this together with the successor

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state of the Soviet Union that is

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Russia however the situation looks very

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different today NATO despite the

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promises it made has continued to extend

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its presence towards Russia most

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recently with the inclusion of Finland

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and Sweden the fact is that for example

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the Federal Republic of Germany is

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harming itself through the economic war

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against Russia due to the war in Ukraine

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Germany has been subdued as a competitor

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so to speak the USA has kept Russia out

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and at the same time dangerously renewed

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itself by focusing more on rearmament

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and on this expansion as well as on

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escalation in this respect all of this

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has proven true up to

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today yes to come back to the expansion

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I found that quite fascinating in the

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book as well because I hadn’t really

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reflected on it myself until now there

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you draw a parallel between NATO’s

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Eastward expansion and the relative

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complete ignorance of Russian security

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interests and the pivot to Asia the same

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thing is happening under similar

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conditions with China here it’s not

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about memberships but about partnership

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agreements yet China is being

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increasingly cornered without regard for

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their security interests at least that’s

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the argument in your book I’m interested

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in your assessment is this Western

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hubris or actually a deliberate

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provocation in both

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directions this complete or pretty

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complete ignoring of the security

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interests of Global actors like Russia

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and

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China I believe it is inherent to the

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system so this focus on escalation and

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expansion it is not a peace Alliance not

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a security Alliance it is not an

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alliance that wants to create security

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but it increasingly endangers

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security with more and more Armament and

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militarization also at the expense of

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the social issue in NATO member states

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it endangers peace both externally and

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internally I think that it is definitely

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a system that functions as a War

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Alliance and which is supposed to stop

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the decline of the heiman USA it serves

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exactly this purpose and it’s not just

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about partnership agreements or military

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agreements parallel to NATO’s Eastern

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expansion it continues in the same way

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the former Supreme Allied Commander of

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NATO stus even advocates for the

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membership of individual countries with

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which one tries in the indopacific

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region such as Japan South Korea

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Australia or New Zealand to advance this

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encirclement of China by

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NATO he is indeed advocating for the

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active membership of these countries in

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NATO the discussion goes far beyond just

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agreements with Partners representing

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nato in the indopacific region or

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opening a door for NATO there are o

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discussions about in liaison office in

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Japan that NATO wants to open the

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expansion into Asia is progressing

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because there is increasingly a

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declaration of hostility towards China

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China’s growth rise and cooperation with

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other countries as well as its weight in

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international diplomacy are increasing

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this is not seen as a potential gain or

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progress that could be mutually

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beneficial instead the USA sees this as

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a threat to their Global hegemony and

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therefore opts for confrontation the

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danger is great that NATO will be drawn

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into this confrontation as a

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geopolitical instrument of the USA with

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Germany participating in

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it since we’re on the topic of

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confrontations a world region we haven’t

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yet focused on but which is also

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addressed in your book is the current

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conflict in Gaza I believe it’s almost

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impossible to a war

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anymore now you were also in the ha for

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the hearing of Nicaragua’s complaint

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against the Federal Republic of Germany

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moving a bit away from the book but I

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find this to be a very interesting

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aspect as well how did you perceive this

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hearing yes I found it remarkable that I

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was actually the only parliamentarian

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there I don’t think it’s every day that

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the Federal Republic of Germany is

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accused of aiding and abetting genocide

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before the highest court in the world

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namely the international court of

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justice it must be said this is the

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highest appell at court therefore I was

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quite astonished that there was so

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little interest or actually no interest

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at all from deputies including

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colleagues from other parties in

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participating in this historic

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trial the first day was the day of the

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accusation by

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Nicaragua charges state that the Federal

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Republic of Germany has not fulfilled

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its obligations under the genocide

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convention namely to do everything to

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prevent a genocide that means not to do

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or omit anything that could facilitate a

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genocide the complaint states that the

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delivery of weapons of excessive arms

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shipments to Israel by the Federal

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Republic of Germany leads to a plausible

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risk of genocide and alleged violations

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of humanitarian international law by

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Israel with these weapons are

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facilitated this is the accusation that

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the Federal Republic of Germany assists

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and facilitates

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[Music]

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this and interestingly Nicaragua’s

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lawsuit is based on parliamentary

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inquiries by the alliance around Sahara

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wagen neck in the German

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bundist in these inquiries we have

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worked out the numbers and facts

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regarding the excessive arms deliveries

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by Germany to Israel despite truly

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terrible events in the last weeks and

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months of course Israel has the right to

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self-defense like any other country that

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is attacked but what we have been seeing

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and experiencing for weeks and months

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has nothing to do with self-defense

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anymore it is a vendetta marked by war

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crimes therefore it is naturally also an

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indirect participation in war crimes if

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one continues to supply weapons to this

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country on the day of Defense Germany

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presented itself in a way that I found

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to be presumptuous ignorant and arrogant

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in summary it can be said that Germany

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argued that it could not Aid and abet a

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genocide that has not yet been

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determined so they presuppose the

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genocide to consider a lawsuit for

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complicity as possible at

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all and this is of course a complete

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reversal of the genocide convention one

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should do everything possible to

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preventive it’s about the prevention of

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genocide this arrogance was also very

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tangible accusing Nicaragua of having

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the audacity to sue the Federal Republic

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of Germany Germany provides so much

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humanitarian Aid

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internationally and has learned from

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history from the Holocaust and has

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committed itself to international law

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how can anyone Sue Germany so they

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didn’t even address Nicaragua’s specific

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arguments but instead took a moral High

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Ground as we recognize in the foreign

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policy of the Federal Republic of

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Germany especially under the current

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foreign minister in summary one must say

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that ignorance and arrogance Prevail

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against this lawsuit and I find the

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federal government’s argumentation to be

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not very credible in terms of genocide a

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determination would have to be made

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first in order to be able to provide

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assistance or violate the genocide

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convention thirdly I believe that it has

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been enormously damaging to Germany’s

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reputation to be sitting in the dock at

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all and to continue to hold on to these

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murderous arms deliveries to Israel

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despite the atrocities we see every day

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in

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[Music]

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Gaza this is indeed a topic in its own

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right namely the loss of reputation of

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German foreign policy which is

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noticeable worldwide whether you talk to

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diplomats from the Middle East or Latin

19:55

America to briefly return to Nicaragua

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something that also caught my attention

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since you just mentioned this arrogance

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it is often forgotten that Nicaragua

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sued the USA before the same court in

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1984 and the verdict was delivered in

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1986

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true and there was a similarly arrogant

20:15

attitude from the USA which ultimately

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had to suffer a clear defeat even though

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they did not comply with the judgment

20:29

nicar the plaintiff from Nicaragua was

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also the one who filed the lawsuit

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against the USA at the international

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court of justice in

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1984 it may be that the federal

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government shows a mix of composure

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ignorance and arrogance externally but

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internally fears being held accountable

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as the allegations are very

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substantial similarly with the lawsuit

20:51

of South Africa against Israel for

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genocide where the international court

20:55

of justice recognized plausible risks of

20:58

genocide in Gaza in a preliminary

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decision on January

21:02

26th subsequently the court asked Israel

21:05

to take explicit protective measures for

21:08

the civilian population in Gaza this

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shows that the argumentation of the

21:12

federal government stands on very shaky

21:15

ground as the court already saw a

21:17

plausible risk of genocide on January

21:19

26th and demanded corresponding

21:21

protective measures therefore I am

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curious about what the international

21:26

court of justice will announce in the

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coming

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weeks let’s return once again to the

21:38

starting point and the future of NATO

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the average life expectancy in the USA

21:43

the main actor of NATO is currently

21:45

under 80 years how high do you estimate

21:48

the life expectancy of NATO as an

21:50

institution

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[Music]

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I think it has survived far too long

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already since the end of the Cold War it

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should have been dissolved in my opinion

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we urgently need a moratorium the

22:08

expansion of NATO Must Be Stopped if one

22:11

actually wants to establish security and

22:13

not further endanger World Peace we

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absolutely must return to international

22:18

law and pursue a policy of disengagement

22:21

as developed by the former top us

22:22

Diplomat George Kennan he suggested

22:25

untangling the military blocks and

22:27

ending the block confr

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in my opinion this is of the utmost

22:32

importance I wish for a security order

22:34

in Europe that enables a sovereign and

22:36

confident policy in the interest of the

22:39

people and the majority of the

22:40

populations in Europe including the

22:43

Germans we should not become a client

22:45

state within an organization that only

22:47

serves to fulfill the interests of the

22:53

USA I thank you thank you very much

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ICC Called On To Indict Ursula von der Leyen For Complicity In War Crimes! | Dr. Alfred de Zayas

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N7X4gX-nLo)

The International Criminal Court has received a legal communication, issued by a Geneva-based NGO with consultative status at the United Nations, that accuses Ursula von der Leyen and several other EU officials of complicity in committing war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Im talking to one of the leading international lawyers involved in the drafting of the communication about the content of the accusations, the legal arguments, and the chances of success.

Bottom line: While one individual communication might not be enough to convince the ICC to open proceedings, a precedent has been set and more communications from civil society toward the ICC to investigate the nature of the complicity of western leaders toward the various warcrimes committed in Gaza and the West Bank might be yet a new route to bring to an end the impunity of these leaders in their support for the most horrific crimes against humanity.

To all international lawyers and human rights lawyers out there: Please do study the above communication and think about submitting your own communication to the ICC if you are in a position to do so with institutional support behind you. Pressure from civil society through the international legal system (even a flawed one) is a good way of increasing the heat on the warmongers and maniacs in these elites.

Transkripzioa:

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the U statute of Rome States it very clearly that there is no such thing as a

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functional in immunity so that Ursula feron or for that matter um uh Rishi

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sunak uh and Emanuel macron and Olaf Schulz all could be indicted or

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complicity [Music]

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hello everybody this is Pascal from neutrality studies and today I’m talking again to Professor Dr Dr Alfred desas

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our expert on human rights and international law professor desay is used to work as a senior lawyer in the

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office of the UN High Commissioner for human rights and later became the first un independent expert on International

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order from 2012 to 2018 he holds a doctorate in jurist Prudence from

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Harvard Law School and a PhD in modern history from the German University of gutan Dr desas is also a member of the

1:03

GD International Peace Research Institute where he and his team are working and recently submitted a legal

1:10

case against orela under liion Charles Michelle and Joseph borell um and this

1:16

is exactly what we want to talk about it’s a so-called communication and

1:21

um well this is it Dr desas welcome thank you very much Pascal for

1:28

inviting me again and for giving giving us the opportunity to uh expose to a larger public uh our initiative uh

1:35

indeed uh the Geneva uh International Peace Research Institute under uh Dr

1:42

Gabrielle Galis and our vice president uh Jil Emmanuel ja we’re based here in

1:49

Geneva we have a long history of holding very important conferences peace

1:55

conferences here uh in Geneva and conferences on the media conferences uh

2:02

on mediation and um since the uh genocide started in

2:12

U Gaza uh and of course let’s put matters

2:18

uh clear this war did not start on the 7th of October

2:25

2023 I mean the mainstream media gives you the impression that this is um

2:31

Israel’s uh self-defense uh maybe excessive self-defense uh against uh the

2:39

Palestinians but no I mean the war essentially started uh as a colonial war

2:46

if you want as a uh war of uh settlement uh in

2:53

1947 48 uh when uh the NABA uh took place the

2:58

nakba meaning the expulsion of nearly 1 million Palestinians from their homes and the

3:07

gradual uh uh destruction uh of the

3:13

Palestinian people by ethnic cleansing uh it’s

3:21

a a complex of war crimes and crimes against humanity but in slow motion and

3:29

obviously every body remembers uh shabra and shatila and so

3:34

many uh attacks on Palestinian refugee centers and uh uh so many war crimes

3:42

that have occurred in total impunity on the part of of Israel but now we were faced with

3:50

something uh much more acute uh you had an allout assault on the civilian

3:58

population of Gaza and not withstanding what the

4:04

Impressions uh in the New York Times and in the Washington Post and in leemont

4:10

and in the BBC and in the Frankfurt alaman taong let’s face it uh

4:17

the victims are and have always been the

4:23

Palestinians the perpetrators have been the Israelis is the Israelis who are

4:31

imposing uh a settler colonialism in a territory that was uh

4:38

occupied peacefully by uh Palestinians for thousands of years so here you have

4:45

a situation comparable uh to the white

4:51

Europeans coming to South Africa and pushing off uh the native uh uh African

4:58

population and put putting them into bun STS and putting them uh just using them

5:03

as cheap labor and that is what Israel has done uh in its colonizing practice

5:11

but uh one thing is uh reducing the Palestinians to second

5:18

class citizens and treating them uh under a regime of apartheid which by the

5:24

way uh my uh president uh Jimmy

5:30

already in the year 2006 described as being a parth uh Jimmy

5:38

Carter who is a true uh peace uh

5:44

president someone who uh genuinely wanted to have World Peace he has made

5:51

uh over the last decades uh many proposals how to achieve a two-state uh

5:58

solution and of course the alternative is a one-state solution you probably know the

6:05

book by Professor Virginia Tilly on the one state solution but getting back uh

6:12

to the violence uh of Israel of the

6:18

Israeli defense uh Force against uh the Palestinian civilians uh in Gaza uh this

6:27

is not just uh an act of barbarity of

6:32

barbarism uh this uh reaches the threshold of genocide everybody

6:40

remembers back in 1994 how the genocide in Rwanda played out

6:49

and at the time people said well how could we stand by and watch this well

6:55

that’s what the world did uh the world let it happen France let it happen the

7:00

United States uh let it happen and then after that there was a commitment never

7:06

again we’re never going to allow genocide to occur before our eyes well

7:12

we’re seeing it today we’re seeing it on our screens we’re seeing it on

7:17

television we’re hearing uh the uh voices of the survivors and

7:24

uh we have the reports of uh uh the international Committee of the Red Cross

7:31

of the red crescent Society of uh uh United Nations uh rapor who have

7:41

Al yes uh I mean we have all of the evidence we need uh we see that U there

7:49

is intent to destroy in whole or in part the uh Palestinian uh population the end

7:58

game is simply to push them all out so that you have uh uh Israel controlling

8:06

the entire territory uh and uh not allowing a two

8:11

St State um uh solution as we know that Netanyahu is totally against a two-state

8:19

uh solution and he doesn’t care that the international court of

8:26

justice has issued three orders essentially saying

8:34

uh there is evidence uh that this is uh genocide the court has not yet said this

8:42

is genocide that will come in the final judgment on the merits but the court has

8:48

said because of this we issue provisional measures of protection and

8:54

there have been three of them the first one being the 26th of January of this year they have been

9:00

completely ignored by Israel with the support and

9:05

complicity of the United States United Kingdom France uh the European Union itself Etc

9:14

and that is what gave us the idea earlier this year let’s let the Court

9:21

decide on the issue of genocide let uh

9:27

the uh International Criminal Court decide on the um appeals that have been

9:35

made to it to issue arrest warrants against uh uh Netanyahu and his Minister

9:44

of Defense uh what interested us as civil society in the Geneva uh uh

9:52

International Peace Research Institute what was crucial for us is to

9:58

focus on the issue of complicity a genocide doesn’t occur in a

10:08

vacuum there are all sorts of inter relationships and uh it is

10:15

clear that uh European governments in particular uh the uh European Union uh

10:24

states have given military

10:30

political economic Financial propagandistic uh support to Israel they

10:38

have backed up Israel uh diplomatically if you look at uh the

10:45

statements by Ursula fion uh by

10:52

uh uh Char Michelle by uh uh Joseph borell uh in October November January uh

11:01

of this year you see that there has been a complete support of Israel and a

11:09

reversal of the roles so Israel is presented as the victim of

11:15

terrorism and the Palestinians are being depicted as terrorists that by the way

11:21

this kind of uh incitement to hatred against the

11:28

people and that’s what we having here incitement to hatred against

11:33

Palestinians in general everybody is Amalgamated everybody uh is seen as um

11:41

uh terrorists and violent people who who don’t deserve a state and we have more than enough uh examples of people

11:49

officially saying there are no civilian there are no innocent people in Gaza we on all levels from the soldiers up to I

11:57

think Alando others said so too I mean we me there are many statements uh that uh

12:05

will uh remind us all of uh the second world

12:12

war and of Nazi Germany the way the SS

12:18

uh treated uh not only the Jews because they treated uh Russians and ukrainians

12:26

and poles as inter menion this is a shall we say a very racist

12:33

approach uh that uh we have in the west we autod Define ourselves as the good

12:40

guys as the Civilized people and then everybody else uh is less than us and

12:49

that is what we see in the kind of aparte that the um Palestinians have

12:56

endured for 75 years but uh going back to the criminal

13:03

responsibility uh the international criminal Tribunal for the

13:09

former Yugoslavia the international criminal Tribunal for Rwanda established

13:15

Juris Prudence on issues of incitement uh to racial hatred and also issues of

13:22

complicity and quite concretely now with regard uh to the uh European uh Union

13:30

and Ursula fer lion uh you would have

13:37

expected that uh the European Union would have insisted not now but

13:45

already in the year 2004 when the international court of

13:51

justice issued its uh advisory opinion on the wall which

14:00

very uh systematically documented the violations

14:05

of the 1949 Geneva conventions of the um

14:13

International Covenant on civil and political rights the international Covenant on economic social cultural rights the convention on the rights of

14:20

the child etc etc you would have expected the European Union to take

14:27

action not not to continue business as usual with Israel when Israel has

14:36

been condemned by the international court of justice for violating all of these

14:43

treaties now uh is this this double standards that is so U offensive to the concept of the

14:52

rule of law and to the concept of civilization itself uh when uh

14:59

the uh European Union points fingers at

15:05

Africans and at Asians and for violations of human rights but when it

15:11

comes to Israel they don’t mind and they uh

15:17

continue supporting Israel diplomatically and uh uh economically

15:24

Etc militarily and doing business with them

15:29

now the general assembly over the last 75 years has adopted any number of

15:37

resolutions concerning the right of self-determination of the Palestinian

15:42

people even the security Council has resolutions on the self-determination of

15:49

uh the Palestinian people you would expect that the representative of the

15:54

European Union would support and do course promote the

16:01

implementation of general assembly and Security Council resolutions that has not been the case so all of that has

16:09

impacted us and not only Us in the Geneva International Peace Research

16:15

Institute but our colleagues in France as I said we uh were

16:20

significantly uh aided by this uh Consortium of uh uh French lawyers who

16:28

as your Europeans feel uh let down by the European Union

16:34

they are uh shocked that the European Union acts in this manner that is not

16:41

conform shall we say with uh the uh Treaty of Lisbon that is not conform uh

16:49

with article two uh which is the article on on on human rights and fundamental

16:54

freedoms so uh that being the case uh we

16:59

put out um a letter we didn’t want

17:05

to uh shall we say Leap Frog and uh immediately go to Karim Khan

17:13

the uh prosecutor uh of the international criminal court uh we

17:19

drafted a long letter uh that was sent to Ura ferion and to uh

17:29

sh Michelle and Joseph borell and we got no reaction

17:35

whatever then there was a followup letter again no

17:41

reaction and then we issued a Manifesto saying what were our concerns were our

17:48

concerns for peace the necessity of immediate uh ceasefire the necessity of

17:54

mediation the necessity of uh reconcil ation and

18:01

reconstruction I mean these the Palestinians are not about to disappear they are there and uh Israel may want to

18:09

push them all out uh but uh that is prohibited

18:14

specifically in article 49 of the Geneva conventions of 1949 ethnic cleansing is

18:21

a crime has been declared to be uh not only a crime against humanity but

18:28

genocide have General Assembly resolutions saying that uh ethnic cleansing is a form of

18:34

genocide so uh we felt we should bring this to the

18:41

attention we should put urula F Lion on notice that uh she is

18:49

complicit uh in genocide and as I said in the absence of

18:56

reaction from the European Union because essenti uh when you say something like

19:03

this uh since they cannot refute what you’re

19:08

saying they simply ignore you you do not exist your documents don’t exist I

19:16

publish re uh frequently in counter punch in the United States I put into

19:23

counter punch the open letter the followup to the open letter the

19:29

Manifesto again made it very public that we were going to present a uh complaint

19:36

a communication uh to the uh uh prosecutor so on the 25th of uh of May

19:45

this year we finally did so and can can you can you explain that a bit more like

19:51

what does a communication to the international criminal court mean so you wrote this very long document and I’m

19:58

going to show it here and I know you have it over there too it’s it’s a long and very well-crafted legal document in

20:05

which you outline um all of the complaints and introduction jurisdiction

20:10

the background General standards of complicity you really make this case that the EU is complicit and then you

20:17

sent that to Mr Khan right um and this

20:22

is a way to uh to request from Civil Society a criminal in investigation by

20:29

the IC is that is that so exactly now Article

20:34

15 of the statute of Rome uh gives the

20:41

prosecutor uh the discretion uh to uh start investigations

20:49

or to request um arrest warrants uh on the basis of information

20:55

that he receives now this information can can be forwarded by states by intergovernmental organizations but of

21:03

course can be also uh forwarded by Civil Society by uh a non-governmental

21:10

organization by the way we have consultative status uh with uh the

21:16

United Nations and uh we participate uh in the Human Rights Council and any

21:21

number of other uh United Nations uh institutions so uh it is in his hands uh

21:31

to do something with it or to put it aside and ignore it that is why we have

21:39

gone public that is why we issued a press release that has been picked up uh

21:47

in the United States in Latin America in Africa in Asia so it is had a good

21:53

impact uh the uh the press release uh but um

21:59

the wheels of Justice turn very slowly uh I don’t see Karim Khan um uh issuing

22:09

a uh a warrant for the arrest of urula f Len uh anytime soon but what uh I would

22:18

hope is that an investigation be opened and that would give the international

22:25

criminal court uh the possibility of of expanding on the concept uh of

22:32

complicity what exactly is complicity in our legal uh brief

22:41

we explicitly give uh shall we say uh

22:47

the content uh of this complicity in Military Support economic support

22:54

financial support diplomatic support political support Etc now he has it all

23:00

in his hands now he has a big staff of lawyers who can actually uh prepare a

23:09

recommendation to the judges so that the judges issue uh an

23:15

arrest warrant but we need people like you uh in the Press uh

23:23

to give visibility uh to this uh initiative the initiative is from the

23:31

international law aspect is solid it is uh within the statute of Rome and it is

23:38

consistent with the object and purpose of the international criminal court it

23:44

is uh consistent with the object and purpose of the international court of justice because we let let’s see this

23:50

whole picture uh we’ve had uh the South

23:57

African uh uh case brought against Israel already in December of

24:04

2023 and the first order of the international court of justice of the 26th of January of this year uh in the

24:12

meantime uh a number of states uh have joined uh South Africa including

24:20

Nicaragua and Colombia and Mexico Etc uh who are uh pushing for a decision on the

24:29

merits by the international court of justice that this is genocide but that

24:35

doesn’t talk about the issue of complicity in genocide that’s not that

24:40

that would uh be a uh shall we say a

24:46

doctrinal finding uh that will be very useful to

24:51

the international criminal court yeah which is the institution that has the

24:57

competence to issue warrants of arrest and as you know there’s no uh functional

25:06

immunity uh on the part of Ura ferion that is ex explicit article

25:15

27 of uh the U statute of Rome States

25:21

very clearly that there is no such thing as a functional immunity so that Ula F

25:28

lion or for that matter um uh Rishi sunak uh and Emanuel macron and Olaf

25:37

Schultz all could be indicted for

25:43

complicity yeah so I think this is really important like on the icj side we

25:48

have states that are suing other states um South Africa suing uh uh Israel and

25:55

trying to establish that uh genocide is is is going on although this is going to

26:00

take a long time but the provisional measures indicate that should not take a long time the evidence is so

26:07

overwhelming the evidence is overwhelming but the process can be can be drawn out but on the ICC ICC side we

26:15

have there is actually a tool in international law that can take out or that can that can really cause huge

26:21

trouble on decision makers right Vladimir Putin already decided not to

26:27

travel to South Africa last year most probably because of this ICC so but the

26:32

point is also I think the important thing that that I’ve learned through what you’re doing is that you don’t have

26:38

to be a government of a of a country in order to try to use the IC you can be a

26:44

non-governmental organization and and do that because like governments I’m pretty sure South Africa would not issue kind

26:51

of an a communication to the IC to to get OV under liing because South Africa

26:58

a state still needs to trade Etc but but if we have a lot of um Civil Society

27:04

organizations who request that not just you but others templates and download and and fill in their case and and

27:10

submit and submit there could be a civil society push in the IC toward the ICC to

27:17

to start reacting and as you correctly say the media environment so this is the approach that you’re taking right by the

27:23

way I can send that to you uh we just issued it uh since we submitted the case to the um

27:33

prosecutor on the 25th of March of uh may may uh we have had uh

27:41

endorsement of many other uh non-governmental organizations Civil

27:48

Society institutions professors uh experts and uh that is going to uh give

27:57

additional weight uh to this complaint we are forwarding

28:02

this updated uh list uh of organizations

28:07

that are endorsing uh the legal brief among them uh I’m also a member of them

28:20

the that is the leading Spanish uh organization

28:25

on uh the International uh human rights uh system

28:32

protection system uh and the president of the uh Association is a former colleague of mine at the United Nations

28:39

at the office of the High Commissioner uh Professor uh um uh Carlos Vian Duran

28:47

so he has signed in his personal capacity as uh professor and the

28:54

association has signed in its quality as NGO uh and uh there have been many

29:01

others that are on this list so it is gaining momentum and we need more visibility

29:11

we’ve sent it to the m diplomatic unfortunately we’re not getting any

29:16

reaction from the mon diplomatic uh we’re not getting any reaction here at

29:22

the Tribune deev or not reaction uh from um the major

29:28

uh newspapers uh because they all seem to be intimidated they all seem to be

29:34

afraid um and uh it’s it’s a problem it’s a problem of U perception also

29:43

because uh we have been so indoctrinated so brainwashed uh

29:51

into uh believing that Israel is the only uh democratic country in the Middle

29:59

East and we should support Israel etc etc uh that when you say wait a minute

30:07

is that true uh and is uh Israel behaving uh as a state under the rule of

30:15

law is it behaving as a state that respects uh the uh human rights of all

30:23

persons living under his jurisdiction and when you realize that that is not the case any number of other

30:31

questions arise because you find that uh the mainstream

30:39

media far from informing Society far from uh being the

30:47

Watchdog uh of our rights mainstream media is basically a an echo chamber for

30:56

Washington for the pend gone uh for Israel for the uh and uh it’s

31:06

uh it’s painful to accept uh that your Illusions about uh

31:15

international law and about uh the international

31:20

institutions created uh to protect our rights that that does not conform with

31:27

reality yeah that doesn’t mean that you’re going to bail out and you’re going to abandon

31:32

it you have to continue persevere and insist on your rights you have to reclaim your rights yeah but this is

31:40

this is this is something we are seeing right now I mean this whole thing started absolutely horribly gruesomely

31:46

and then over time we have now seen International legal pressure building up icj IC and now Mr Khan actually request

31:54

requested warrants at the ICC against uh Netanyahu and Gant right uh B besides

32:00

three Hamas leaders which is kind of ironic because I think if the ICC managed to get these three they would be protected much better than in custody

32:07

than where they are now but let’s leave that one aside um the but you can see how how Israel is really really really

32:14

angry at this and this so there is there is there is something and and the student protests that are all moving in

32:20

this direction so there is power to this to this process and my question is um if

32:27

not just you but if if like others other civil society organization also wrote Communications to the ICC saying arrest

32:35

uh funder line arrest fun the line these people are aiding and abetting genocide arrest them if if if that happened um do

32:43

you think the ICC is independent enough does does does this institution internally the way it works have the

32:49

capacity to actually start moving that that route even just with an investigation yes I am optimistic that

32:56

they can’t and that they must now uh it will be under pressure

33:02

you probably heard or read in the Press uh that our

33:08

Firebrand senator from South Carolina uh Lindy Graham uh uh met with um State uh

33:18

Secretary of State um Anthony blinken and discussed uh the possibility of

33:25

imposing bipartisan sanctions on the uh international criminal court

33:32

uh you may remember uh that uh back uh in uh the Trump years uh that

33:40

Trump imposed uh on the international uh criminal court on the then prosecutor

33:48

and her staff Fatu suda imposed uh sanctions and uh that was condemned

33:56

solidly by uh Human Rights Watch by Amnesty

34:02

International I was uh very impressed that they had the courage uh to say uh

34:09

what are you doing you cannot blackmail uh international criminal justice you

34:15

cannot put the judges uh on a uh sanctions list is just too absurd it is

34:22

upending uh the whole concept uh of the rule of law and of the independent of

34:28

the U of lawyers and Jud judges Etc so

34:33

uh uh there are American senators and American

34:39

congressmen uh who would uh want to uh

34:45

impose sanctions on the court the United States uh of course is not uh a member

34:52

uh of the statute of Rome uh it actually it it signed it back in

34:59

1998 time of President Clinton but then in 200 uh

35:06

to uh it uh what condalisa rice said at the time

35:13

that the United States unsigned it that is not true I mean you cannot unsign a document what you can do is you send a

35:21

notification uh to the depositary of the statute of Rome saying uh that you have

35:27

no intention of ever ratifying it and that way uh I mean basically uh you are

35:36

uh are free to undermine it and that is what the United States has done systematically since

35:42

2002 with something like 80 uh bilateral uh impunity agreements

35:50

that the United States has signed with the uh states paries to the statute of

35:55

Rome saying that uh if there’s ever warn against an American citizen you know they are not allowed by virtue of this

36:02

bilateral agreement they’re not allowed uh to deliver uh an American to the

36:08

international criminal court of course it’s against the object and purpose of the ICC and these 80 countries which

36:15

must have been placed under a lot of pressure uh should never have uh entered into those agreements which are also

36:23

Abino null and void because they are again

36:28

uh uh good morals they’re Contra Bonos mores article 53 of the Vienna

36:35

Convention of the law treaties um very well taken but let’s go back again to this to this communication

36:42

of yours um are you did you receive a an

36:47

notification from the court that it was received uh do you know that that of course we have’t that we had um the day

36:54

after so we’re fine uh the question is will the court which as I say Works

37:02

slowly uh actually act it is within the discretion of Karim Khan to act or to

37:11

ignore it so it’s not like a referral if you have a

37:16

referral uh from the security Council or from a state uh then the prosecutor uh

37:25

has to take it but it is not foreseeing that a non-governmental

37:31

organization can order uh the prosecutor to take up something but uh if he is

37:39

true to his mandate true to Article 15 of the statute of Rome then he has to do

37:46

it it’s not a question of war crimes

37:52

under article 8 or it’s a question of Geno side the

37:58

ultimate crime that’s article six uh of the uh statute of Rome if there there’s

38:05

anything urgent uh in the statute of Rome is the prevention uh of uh genocide the same

38:12

thing if you take the Geneva the genocide Convention of 1948 uh article one puts the emphasis on

38:21

prevention basically punishment is only Expos factum it’s

38:27

after the genocide has taken place uh you have to prevent the genocide and

38:32

that is where the EUR European Union has failed totally the European Union has

38:39

done nothing uh to prevent the genocide and uh Nicaragua you may remember

38:46

presented a case uh against Germany International in the icj before

38:53

the international court of justice and the international court of justice took

38:58

the case it is a registered case it’s being examined but unfortunately the

39:03

judges at the icj uh copped out the judges should have

39:10

issued an order uh ordering Germany to stop any

39:17

military deliveries uh to uh uh to Israel and the court uh decided that it

39:25

was not so urgent I mean it’s ridiculous there’s nothing more urgent than

39:30

stopping genocide and one of the ways of stopping genocide is uh making it uh I

39:36

mean imposing a total embargo uh arms embargo on on Israel that is one way of

39:43

doing it uh and the court did not have the courage to do

39:49

so in the in the in the defense of the Court though if I remember correctly the argumentation Germany argued that they

39:55

are not aiding genocide that they’re that they’re not doing any of the things that they’re accused of and the court

40:01

then said uh fine if you’re not doing this continue not doing it so so we put

40:07

an eye on you Germany if you if you if you actually turn out to be doing it well there will be problems in theut an

40:13

intelligent article uh that I I read in uh the German press about it uh saying

40:20

uh don’t underestimate uh the uh uh order of the uh International jce

40:28

because International court of justice reaffirmed everything that it had already said in the case South Africa

40:34

against Germany and of course it is shall we say inherent in those three orders of the

40:42

international uh court of justice against Israel that any other state

40:48

cannot cooperate with Israel in making uh this genocide possible and if you if

40:54

you do you make yourself liable and you you as a head of state uh or head of

41:00

government you are not you are not immune by virtue of what you are the ICC can come and get you I mean this is the

41:06

threat we need right we need to threaten these leaders that they’re they cannot act with impunity and the ICC is the one

41:13

institution that has the power to do that yes no no I as I said I have been a

41:20

Believer uh in uh the power of Courts and tribunals and I think that the um Summit

41:28

of the future that the United Nations uh is organizing would do well uh to focus

41:35

on the rule of law and to focus on strengthening uh local Regional and

41:43

international courts and tribunals I’m also a member of um uh a an NGO in San

41:52

Francisco uh called uh uh the legal Pact

41:57

www legal.org and uh that is what we want we want a

42:05

strengthening uh of the institutions and uh I do believe that

42:12

the international court of justice can do a lot of good I do believe that international criminal court can do a

42:19

lot of good on the other hand I’m not blind and I’m not naive I am aware that

42:25

uh judges are Under Pressure I’m aware that

42:31

um uh when the uh perpetrators are countries

42:39

like the United States uh or uh Israel

42:44

it is uh more difficult uh to put them

42:49

on the dock than if you’re trying to put um uh Al basher of uh uh of Sudan uh on

43:00

the dock or you’re trying to put an African Etc and that is one of the reasons why uh there is

43:09

um a males uh in the African Union about

43:14

their membership uh in the statute of Rome uh back a few years ago there was

43:20

actually a movement uh to leave the international uh Criminal

43:26

Court and mass and uh I can see that very easily

43:31

happening uh if the court fails to indict uh

43:38

Netanyahu and aan or even worse imagine this scenario

43:45

the court does not indict netan but does indict the Hamas

43:51

people it’s over in that case it’s over be such a slap in the face

43:57

of uh the world uh of the global majority that I could see uh really uh

44:06

uh a departure uh because that would be the last nail in the coffin uh of the IC I

44:15

mean they had a troubled beginning I think it was wrong for

44:22

three uh prosecutors uh not to

44:28

open uh an investigation not to issue indictments against those uh Western

44:36

leaders who were involved in uh the assault uh on the people of Iraq uh in

44:43

uh 2003 uh certainly Tony Blair should have come before the court certainly um Jose

44:53

marar uh of Spain uh many uh uh of the

44:58

leaders who participated uh gave uh Aid and comfort to the United States in its

45:06

uh aggression uh against Iraq all of these leaders should have been indicted

45:12

I mean if the court wants to uh shall we say establish its Authority and its

45:19

credibility uh it cannot afford using double standards it cannot afford

45:26

excluding uh Western leaders and then focusing

45:31

only on Africans or on Putin for instance I mean that uh is um shall we

45:39

say uh is it is Grace uh when uh that happens but I’m not giving up I I I see

45:47

signs uh that uh uh the court uh is coming of age and I would hope uh that

45:57

the court will help us stop uh this genocide stop this war and uh help the

46:06

poor Palestinians who have been massacred and subjected to apartheid for

46:12

uh 75 years but concretely

46:17

um putting aside uh the legal brief putting aside uh the

46:24

strictly shall we say legal uh considerations uh in

46:31

practice uh what are we doing in the west business as

46:37

usual if you want Israel to

46:43

stop uh its genocide and to behave uh we must

46:49

demand from Israel as an ultimatum stop the genocide stop the war

46:58

or we’re going to stop all commercial relations with you you know Israel might even survive

47:06

if we stop diplomatic relations with it but if we stop commercial relations uh

47:14

with Israel uh well certain commercial uh relations

47:20

uh especially Banks if they stopped uh taking taking money and and and just

47:27

just transactions that that that would have an impact but that that hasn’t happened that and for that you do not

47:35

need uh a resolution of the security Council uh and uh I could see the

47:45

general assembly adopting a uniting for peace

47:51

type resolution since the security Council uh

47:56

has not not imposed any sanctions on Israel the security Council because of

48:02

some 80 vetos by the United States has not uh

48:08

allowed uh the um United Nations system under uh uh

48:15

chapter 7 to be effective uh in the war in

48:21

Gaza uh the general assembly can at this

48:27

presidents can take responsibility and say adopt a

48:34

resolution urging states to

48:40

stop Commercial Banking Financial uh

48:45

cooperation uh with uh uh with Israel uh of course the general assembly

48:51

will not be able to enforce it but imagine uh that uh a 100 states in the

48:59

world uh decide that they will stop Financial relationships uh with Israel

49:07

uh that would make Israel’s economy grind to a Hal question if we have or

49:14

when we get such a UN resolution would this enable civil

49:20

Societies in Switzerland in in the UK and so on to to sue our own governments

49:26

to to create legislation or that forbids Banks from from transacting from

49:32

transactions with Israeli entities because we need that we need a tool in order to to pressure legally our

49:40

institutions to to to stop transact to stop working with isra it it would be a

49:46

tremendous help doesn’t mean that uh it is

49:52

Aon uh I think Civil Society can already demand that uh of um governments I have

50:01

in a number of Articles uh are published in Switzerland I have uh

50:10

demanded uh that the uh federal

50:15

government prohibit uh Banks from

50:21

bending to Illegal United States unilateral course of measures for

50:29

instance uh if you make a donation uh and it happened in the time

50:35

of covid make a donation uh for ventilators uh for victims of covid in

50:42

Venezuela or in Cuba Etc the UBS will not transfer the money as a matter of

50:49

fact the UBS has no transactions with Cuba or with Venezuela or with countries

50:55

under uh uh us sanctions which means that the United States is imposing extr

51:03

territorially its legislation in Switzerland thereby violating the

51:09

sovereignty of uh Switzerland it is the obligation of Switzerland to protect its banks to

51:18

protect its Enterprises from illegal unilateral coercive measures by the

51:24

United States and to sue the United States on behalf of its

51:29

citizens and that has not happened and uh I think that the uh uh Swiss

51:36

government is being complicit in the crimes of the United

51:43

States through its unilateral coercive measures uh because it has not taken

51:50

legal action against the United States for violation of its sovereignty or legal

51:57

action in order to protect uh its Enterprises so here again we have a

52:05

failure uh of the system of enforcement of

52:14

international law yeah and international treaties and it’s being tolerated and

52:20

it’s being whitewashed uh by the mainstream media the problem the problem we have have is

52:27

that even if Switzerland tried to take measures actually for the US it’s pretty simple to get out of it because it’s and

52:34

its way of csing the UBS is not by threatening Switzerland it’s by threatening UBS business in the US and

52:41

that you know Sovereign right the US has the right to say like UBS we don’t like you we you cannot do business here buy

52:49

be gone which would be the death for UBS right and so uh unfortunately this is a

52:55

structural not that simple it’s not that simple it does

53:00

entail uh effects uh in Switzerland and it also

53:07

entails effects uh on uh the uh people

53:13

subject to sanctions like uh uh the Cubans and the nicaraguans and the

53:18

syrians and Etc uh you have to consider that uh sanctions killed yes and this

53:27

kind of sanctions in particular kill because if uh you cannot get uh insulin

53:34

and you are a diabetic you die and that’s the end of it so you have to take that uh into account and I think that uh

53:41

Switzerland has not even made um you know an a strong official protest

53:48

against this abuse uh of the United States in in

53:53

extraterritorially um expand expanding uh is jurisdiction uh going back to Gaza

54:00

because that is our Focus uh if Ultra under

54:06

lion uh had uh had a different narrative uh if from the

54:13

beginning uh she would have said uh we Europeans cannot be complicit in a war

54:21

against self-determination that is the Croc of the matter people try to forget uh

54:29

self-determination uh the Palestinian people have a right to

54:35

self-determination which has been confirmed by hundreds if not thousands of resolutions of the general assembly

54:44

eoso uh the Human Rights Council the human rights committee etc

54:50

etc and um Switzerland uh is a state party to all

54:57

of these treaties the European countries represented in the European Union are

55:02

also States parties to all of these uh uh commitments and

55:09

uh they’re not applying human rights

55:14

law and um uh there has been no clear

55:21

condemnation uh of Israel uh for genocide right out of the mouth uh of

55:30

Ura felion or Char Michelle so here you have the

55:37

concept of uh complicity by Omission yeah you have a

55:45

responsibility you have a uh position in an

55:50

institution uh that requires uh that uh you

55:57

Implement uh the human rights treaties uh that all of the states of the

56:03

European Union are party to and um USA F the liion has famously

56:13

fail uh in her uh function and she has

56:18

given uh shall we say uh Aid and comfort uh to Israel uh she has made statements

56:26

that are really uh offensive obnoxious uh petulant and uh I think

56:35

that um the perception of urula ferion uh has been

56:42

supported by an enormous public relations campaign I

56:48

mean the propaganda in favor of USA ferion and the European commission and

56:53

the European Union uh is such that uh the masses uh in European

57:01

countries uh simply do not even think that uh USA ferion uh could be uh

57:11

guilty of complicity in genocide it’s just uh the Germans have a wonderful expression for

57:17

that Den for I don’t know any other language that has that it is uh a Prohibition to think

57:27

to think something that is you’ve been so indoctrinated that when an idea pops

57:35

into your head that is particularly

57:42

unorthodox your brain blocks it you say uh we’re not going there I’m not going

57:48

to move further you know that’s a mindfield that’s dangerous I think this

57:53

is bra this is what you’re trying to change we are trying here through international law through through the

58:00

Avenues available and through media publicity to try to change this perception and what can be done and we

58:07

are unfortunately re nearing one hour of of talk so I I we do have to part but

58:14

Alfred I want to wish you the best of luck and other people if you want to somewhere in the world you want to do a

58:20

similar thing get in touch with me I’ll put you in touch with Alfred and and then and then keep pushing push the IC

58:27

to indict to to to do something with these people I find that a great idea yes now hold

58:33

here human rights industry Alfred 2023 I have a whole chapter on the

58:41

international criminal court I was a great supporter of the international

58:46

criminal support at the beginning and I participated with the great Professor Sharif

58:53

basuni uh in uh drafting draft statutes uh for the IC when I used to be

59:01

professor in Chicago and I must say uh my chapter also explains my

59:10

Evolution uh from uh great believer uh

59:15

to disappointed believer and now uh hopeful believer that there can be now

59:24

under uh Karim Khan uh with this recommendation of uh uh inditing uh uh

59:32

netan that there can be a shall we say a rebirth uh of the IC and let us hope

59:41

that uh through you and other members in the media uh the concept of the

59:48

complicity of uh institutions like the uh European union and in particular uh

59:57

uraon that uh people will understand uh that it is these people

1:00:04

who are aiding and abetting uh the genocide who Bear co-responsibility for

1:00:11

the genocide and these people uh must be perceived uh in the

1:00:19

minds of uh all Democratic peoples uh in

1:00:26

Europe they must be uh perceived as

1:00:32

accomplices uh in a crime and they should never be reelected to office

1:00:38

again wonderful final words Alfred desas speak to you again next time thank you