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A Hamas official speaks on Gaza ceasefire & the next war with Israel | Basem Naim | The Big Picture

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udp7GB3buU4)

What has Hamas achieved after 15 months of war with Israel?

With the assassination of two of its most senior leaders, and the devastating human toll in Gaza, the future of Hamas appears uncertain.

But the scenes of its militia re-emerging hours after the ceasefire sent a message of defiance.

The scenes outraged an Israeli public, who were told that victory would only come after the complete destruction of Hamas.

While the world prays for an end to the violence in Gaza, Hamas’ senior leaders say a new chapter of their fight against Israel is expected – this time in the West Bank.

As settler-led violence and Israeli military raids on Palestinian villages reach historic levels, many have lost hope that the Palestinian Authority and its president Mahmoud Abbas can do anything to protect Palestinians from another all-out war.

Instead, the lure of armed resistance championed by Hamas has influenced a generation of disillusioned and angry young Palestinians, who’ve given up hope that diplomacy offers them any future.

This week on The Big Picture Podcast, we speak with senior Hamas official Basem Naim, who is a former health minister in Gaza and now part of the group’s political bureau.

believes that Gaza was only the first chapter in the war, and that the next will be more complicated and ultimately more devastating.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

what exactly do you believe Hamas has achieved over the last 15 months Israel

0:05

today after October 7th and after all these 15 months is not Israel as before

0:11

we cannot accept any foreign entity or any foreign Force Arabic forces Islamic

0:18

forces International forces peacekeeping forces the main confrontation will be in

0:23

the West Bank not in Gaza Strip does Hamas intend to take the fight to the West Bank Hamas is intending to to

0:30

defend its people we cannot fight for to improve the conditions of a prison we

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are looking to get rid of the prison itself if the Palestinians cannot reach

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their goal of an independent state including Gaza Strip and the West Bank and Jerusalem no one can enjoy security

0:48

or stability or prosperity in the region Hamas was formed in the late 1980s as a

0:53

Palestinian resistance movement at the height of the first inap they represented a faction of Palestinians

1:00

disillusioned by the peace process and seeing armed resistance as the only way

1:06

towards Liberation from Israeli occupation in 2006 they were voted into Power leading to a bitter internal war

1:13

with opposition group fat who ended up in control of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank while Hamas remained in

1:20

the Gaza Strip in response Israel placed Gaza under a crippling Siege and launched a series of wars in an attempt

1:27

to unseat Hamas from Power while Hamas is military Wing the alasan brigades

1:32

launched Rockets into Israeli cities then on October 7th 2023 Hamas launched

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a surprise attack Breaking Through The Siege and killing 1,200 people including hundreds of Israeli civilians they also

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took around 250 Israeli civilians and soldiers hostage bargaining chips to

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negotiate the end of the 20-year Siege as well as the release of thousands of

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Palestinians held in Israeli prisons but what began on October 7 would become the

2:01

bloodiest chapter in Palestinian history since 1948 as Israel launched a

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us-backed war that destroyed much of Gazza killing over 47,000 Palestinians

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in what many rights groups have described as genocide Israel also assassinated three of hamas’s senior

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leaders including its political Chief isma Hanya and its military Chief Yahya

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sinir 15 months on an fragile ceasefire has finally been brokered in Gaza So

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What Becomes of Hamas will the group remain in Gaza or will they put down their arms and agree to give up

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[Music] control welcome to the big picture

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podcast my name is Muhammad Hassan and today we speak with senior Hames official Dr Basim Naim Naim was the

2:53

minister of Health in gazak in 2007 and a minister for sports and youth in the

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short-lived Palestinian national National Unity government he is now a member of hamas’s political Bureau Dr

3:04

bessim Naim thank you very much for joining us welcome to the big picture please you are welcome also thank you

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very much for contacting us this is a uh particular moment in history that I want

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to speak to you about about the future of Gaza the future of your organization Hamas and the future of the Palestinian

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cause but let’s begin on Sunday with the scenes that everybody saw of the release

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of the first of the Israeli hostages this was a particularly important scene

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because of the Optics of it the significance of it uh and we saw the three hostages being handed over to the

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Red Cross surrounded by dozens of alasam Brigade fighters in uniforms appearing

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to celebrate the moment my question to you is was this a declaration of victory

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for hamus thank you very much yes we can say this is a decaration

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of Victory because Netanyahu from day one and his government has raised and

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declared three goals for his aggression against the people in Gaza to crush the

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resistance and to end the government or the governance of Hamas in Gaza STP plus

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transfer of most of the Palestinian if not all of them outside the Gaza Strip

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to Sinai and lastly to retrieve the soldiers

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forcefully I think it was clear on Sunday on last Sunday that he has failed in all the three goals the resistance is

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still there in dozens in in their uniform with their new

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cars the the resistance was able up to the last moment one day before to attack

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the Israeli forces on the ground and to cause a lot of harm to the to the uh to

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the to the soldiers to the vehic and to to to all to other capabilities he he

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failed to uh to to retrieve an of his captured Israelis in the Gaz St uh

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forcefully and uh the Palestinian people are still deeply rooted uh ready to

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sacrifice for their existence on their own land in the Gaza Strip therefore yes it is a historical moment and uh we can

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talk about Victory especially when we when we compare this imbalance between

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the two forces you are talking about one of the strongest army armies in the in

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the region or maybe beyond the region with small group of fighters in a small

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tiny area 300 Square 60 square kilometers besieged for more than 17 uh

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years denied most of the basics of the needs of the people I’m talking about

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food and medicine and electricity freedom of travel and so on to be able

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to stand up and to resist and to to be steadfast all this time despite of all

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these horrific scenes we have witnessed along the last 15 months yes this is a

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victory for the Palestinian people and this is a clear defeat for the Israeli side and

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lastly I have to say that this is not only our assessment this is the assessment of a lot of people around the

6:28

world but mainly we have he it clearly in clear words and terms uh when the

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chief of staff heri uh resigned two days ago and he said we have failed on

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October 7 7th and we have failed along the last 15 15 months we have failed to

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predict the the operation we have failed to protect our people and we have failed

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also to uh to achieve our goals which we have declared from the beginning

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this victory for Hamas uh obviously comes at a huge toll for the people of

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Gaza in terms of the destruction near total Destruction of gaza’s infrastructure at hospitals at schools

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its universities not to mention the civilian toll which up until now is hard to even calculate the true number of

7:20

people that have been killed and displaced what exactly do you believe Hamas has achieved over the last 15

7:27

months I have first of all to re firm some points when I talk about this uh

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toll of losses of especially of people women children elderly we are talking

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about more than around 50,000 uh killed most of them 70% of

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them are women and children around 10 to 15,000 are still missed under the

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rubble uh 120,000 wounded 20,000 of them are seriously wounded and in urgent need for

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uh treatment abroad destruction everywhere schools hospitals mosques

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infrastructure uh universities I think Gaza is not liveable again at this

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moment but here I have to say first of all when I’m talking about all these figures I’m talking about myself my

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family I am based in Gaza I left Gaza Strip one week before October 7th my

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family my children children my brothers sisters Granda grandchildren are still

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in Gaza and I have lost a lot of my family members the bigger family and the

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smaller family I’m talking about my mother my grandchildren and some of my

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nieces who who I have lost during this uh aggression therefore I’m talking

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about myself uh second it is not about Hamas and Israel it is about the

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Palestinian people and Israel maybe this time this round of escalation

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this round of Confrontation is led by Hamas and other factions like Jihad and

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pflp and others but we can remember very well that 20 years ago it was led by fat

9:13

50 or 30 40 years ago it was led by the pflb uh on so on Palestinians are

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struggling and fighting now for more than 100 years for their freedom and dignity and self and and and

9:28

self-determination therefore it is not a fight between Hamas and Israel it is a fight by

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between Palestinians and Israel maybe the leadership this round is by

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Hamas but back to your question okay it was a very high PR prize it was very

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precious prize we have we are talking again we are talking about our brothers

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and sisters children but Palestinians have offered a

9:58

hand for peace for more than 30 years what is the result after 30 years

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I am talking about Oslo agreement Gaza is besieged totally separated and divided from the West Bank

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most of the land in the West Bank is annexed jeiz of Jerusalem serious very dangerous

10:19

attempts to change the status quo in in alaka mosque declared goals by the Israelis that there is no space for any

10:26

political entity between the river and the Sea except isra and there there are plans adopted by the

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Israeli government and money is allocated for all these plans how to

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declare sovereignity over the West Bank and how to transfer Palestinians out of

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the West Bank therefore they have said it clearly Palestinians have one of three choices either to leave the

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country or to be killed or to accept to live as a slave in under the control of

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the Jewish uh state I mean on one hand we have tried for

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years and years to achieve our main National goals by political means or legal means unfortunately Israel

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supported by the Western Country mainly the United States have sabotaged any

11:17

chance to reach a peaceful settlement of this agreement or political settlements

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of this agreement and this is the result and I have said it many times that October 7th is not uh it was an act of

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Defense based on on the failure of political track for 30 years or more it

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was people who are victims under Israeli operation and they are trying to get rid

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of this Siege of this operation therefore we have we we have tried to uh

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to raise a very strong message or to send a very strong message on October 7th and thereafter that we cannot be

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good victims we cannot be uh silent victims we are ready to sacrifice

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anything to uh get rid of this open air prison to get rid of this occupation and

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to have our Gene one rights of Independence and self sovereignity and

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here I have to say I think you cannot blame the victims

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even when when when there was October 7th even you cannot blame the victims to

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be genocided we we went through a lot of confrontation with the

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Israelis there is even during the war there is international humanitarian law there is no excuse to attack hospitals

12:40

to kill Medics civil defense uh workers to kill in which war in history of

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mankind 70% of the people killed in the war are women and children usually men

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are the vast majority of people killed in wars and the less number is is women and children but in this case More than

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70% are women and children there because there is there was an intention to

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commit these crimes this genocide this starvation in order to achieve uh their

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goals if you go through history unfortunately this is the nature of

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colonial Powers all the times you have seen it in Vietnam you have seen it in Alger you

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have seen it in in South Africa and in a lot of other countries the mentality and

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the nature of colonial powers that they are Savage they are

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brutal uh and they are not ready to give up unless or you are using the same

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tools they are using we have resorted to Armed resistance only when when all

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other tools and means have failed and I do want to ask you about uh the future of armed resistance as well but starting

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with the practicalities of the ceasefire agreement there are 42 days in which uh

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Israel has agreed on paper to the begin the withdrawal of their military uh

14:14

infrastructure from Gazza from all parts of Gazza of course you will be aware of

14:20

the political conversation in Israel right now and there are a lot of voices that are saying that Israel should

14:25

retain its military control of Gaza until is destroyed so what does Hamas

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intend to do if after the first phase of the ceasefire Israel has refused to

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withdraw their military you you are tackling this is a

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very you a question which is tackling different uh issues at the same time

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when it comes directly to the C Fair agreement which is composed of three phases Phase 1 2 three each phase is 42

14:58

days the first phase which we call it the humanitarian phase after the first phase

15:04

immediately we have to talk about the Israelis have to withdraw all their

15:09

forces outside the Gaza Strip I think we have a deal and this

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deal was mediated through the CES the Egyptians and the

15:23

Americans we are committed to this deal we are going to do to do the maximum we

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can in order to give this deal a chance to succeed we are contacting our people

15:34

on the ground to avoid any obstacles to overcome any challenges to facilitate

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anything which can help this deal to succeed but if they have other

15:48

intentions if they have uh hidden agendas as they have said repeatedly

15:54

that they have taken some promises hidden promises from the current uh American Administration that

16:02

they can go to launch the war again and so on uh okay they can do it and it is

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expected that they might violate the the deal and we have seen it lastly in in in South Lebanon they are violating the

16:16

deal on a daily basis but I I can be sure that first he

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has failed after 15 months to achieve any of his goals he has nothing to se

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Chas anymore what can he do more if he go back again to war second I believe

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that Israel the society the political structure is exhausted the economy is

16:42

exhausted the Army is exhausted therefore I don’t think that they have the capability to go for an open War

16:50

again against Gaza and I think the international atmosphere the current

16:57

Administration uh Trump has said it publicly I want I don’t want to see any

17:03

War any wars again in the in in Gaza I want an to see an end of this war as

17:09

soon as possible therefore I don’t think that they have the excuses or they have

17:14

the conditions to go for an for an open War again but it doesn’t this does not

17:20

exclude the possibility that they might go for some assassination here or there

17:25

or some uh local attacks here or there at that time it we we have to assess the

17:32

situation and to study how it will how we will we are going to respond but on

17:37

the other hand I have to say that I think they have nothing more to

17:43

see CH Gaza but based on their declared plans and based on declared policies of

17:49

the new current Trump Administration that the next St is not

17:55

in the the the Gaza St the next St in the West Bank they have declared that year the Year 2025 is the year of

18:03

declaring sovereignity over Israeli sovereignity over the West Bank the

18:08

annexation of the rest of the West Bank the undermining of the existence of the PA and the Palestinians in general in

18:15

the West Bank therefore they have said and also publicly a lot of uh Trump’s

18:22

team have said uh West Bank is part of Israel Israel have the right to Annex

18:29

the rest of of the so-called Judea and Samaria therefore what we are expecting

18:35

and what we are now witnessing that on the second day of of signing the agreement on the Gaza Strip they have

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launched a big operation against uh the West Bank this is what we are uh

18:50

expecting when it comes to Hamas again we have said it many times Hamas is a is a national is a Palestinian national

18:56

resistance movement our our goal is to get rid of the occupation to help our

19:02

people to achieve their genuine goals of of of Independence self sovereignity right of

19:10

rain if we can get it politically peacefully through legal approaches yes

19:16

please this is the preferable way but if not we we have all the guarantees in the

19:23

international law to continue armed resistance because this is guaranteed for all people

19:29

under incubation to use all the tools to get rid of the incubation using armed

19:35

resistance if we get our goals I mean if we have an end of this

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incubation and we have our own State yes Hamas as we have said it many times will

19:47

convert itself into a political party and all these uh military capabilities

19:53

and Fighters will be uh integrated in a Palestinian national Army can I ask

19:58

about the uh prisoner exchange deal we saw already the release of um

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Palestinian prisoners uh and over the weekend and there is expected to be a

20:11

second round of negotiations over exactly who some of more high-profile uh

20:17

Palestinian prisoners are are going to be and there’s you know names that have been floated um Ahmed satat Abdullah

20:24

baruti and maybe the most high-profile of them is Maran baruti who was name was

20:29

off the table for as far as the Israelis were concerned in the past but might be something that Hamas is pushing for what

20:37

can you tell me about what names we can expect that Hamas will prioritize in

20:43

terms of um pushing for their release we are talking about a deal of three phases in the phase one which is the

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humanitarian phase from the uh captured Israelis 33 will be released we are

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talking about uh women elderly sick people and female soldiers lastly the

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Israelis have added nine young men who are most probably uh

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soldiers uh and there is a so-called uh

21:16

terminology or how how uh in in count in for each man or

21:25

woman or elderly or sick man or women there is a number of Palestinians

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prisoners who will be uh released U we are expecting because

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these 33 uh are fixed as names and as a as a

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number but we still we are not aware how many of them are still alive and how

21:50

many are how many of them are dead because it differs the the the number of

21:57

Palestinian prisoner Rel Leed uh uh encounter for a life Israeli

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captured Israeli compared to a dead body we are expecting around

22:12

240 to 50 uh Palestinian prisoners who

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are sent for life and up to 700 Palestinian prisoners in this phase one

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up to 700 Palestinians who are sentenced with High

22:30

sentences 20 30 years and so on it was negotiated between the parties through

22:35

the mediators for days and weeks about each name and there were lists exchange

22:42

between the two two parties who can be raed here who can be raised there how

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many men and women and so on uh unfortunately in the first phase in the

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first phase they have said that these big names are not part of the of the deal

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I’m talking about Maran Ahmed s and some very famous leaders in

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Hamas uh but we have we we are also expecting that there are a lot of good

23:18

or very symbolic names who are going to be released in this phase but this

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figures again like s and at least in the first phase uh they have black listed

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them and we are expecting to negotiate it again in the second phase when we

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talk about releasing the captured Israeli soldiers for more for more

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Palestinian uh prisoners uh now on the second round

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which is expected to be on Saturday some of the female soldiers will be

23:56

released uh if all of of them are released alive we are expecting

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around 90 Palestinians who are sentenced for life to be also released uh most of

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them will be unfortunately deported outside the West Bank and gazb most probably to Egypt as a

24:17

temporary uh station and then they might go to other countries some of them are

24:25

deported for a limited time 3 years for years others are limit are deported

24:31

forever I mean they cannot return back to uh to Palestine

24:37

again uh we hope that we can succeed at the end of the deal I mean at the end of

24:43

the third phase that we can what we call it wipe out all the

24:48

prisons or to get all Palestinian prisoners free during this phase also

24:56

1,000 Palestinian prisoners from those who have been captured or kidnapped

25:01

after October 7th from Gaza will be also released this this was part of the

25:08

deal uh and we hope that the RIS can be released in the second phase let’s turn

25:13

now to the West Bank and the current escalations that are happening we’re seeing happening in Janine but also over

25:19

the next 42 days we are about to enter into the month of Ramadan and the scenes

25:26

from uh that we saw back in 21 of uh worshippers in Al AA compound uh and the

25:33

Israeli raids is a potential uh site that we might see happen again there

25:39

seems to be a lot of tension right now and there are certainly elements within Israel’s government that will want to

25:46

see those tensions return what is Hamas preparing to do if Al AA is raided again

25:54

what are they preparing to do with regards to the escalations in the West Bank we don’t consider that uh any

26:01

escalations or confrontation is Gaza is is it is it about Gaza is it about The

26:06

Siege on Gaza it is about the Palestinian people in Gaza by the way the operation is called Al AA flood

26:12

operation which mean it is about Ala it is about Al Jerusalem it is about the

26:19

West Bank therefore we believe that the main confrontation will be in the West

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Bank not in Gaza Strip because again the Israeli is uh considering strategically

26:31

the West Bank Jerusalem and ala as as a defect to an next area part of the uh

26:38

state of Israel uh therefore uh we believe if anyone is

26:44

seeking to security or stability or Prosperity here in the

26:50

region they have to tackle this problem not in the Gaza Strip in the West Bank if the pales

26:58

iians cannot reach their goal of an independent state including Gaza Strip

27:03

and the West Bank and Jerusalem I think no one can enjoy security or stability or prosperity in

27:10

the region therefore it is a matter of time to see the next round of escalation

27:16

it could be in Gaza again it could be in the West Bank it could be in both it

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could be in the same way of what we have seen in the Gaza Strip but it could be

27:26

in in in different forms we we might witness the third or fourth in I mean

27:34

popular resistance everywhere in each Street and the scene I am sure it will

27:40

be very very complicated more complicated than the scene in the Gaza Strip so this the way that you’re

27:45

describing it it seems to me like what has happened in Gaza from your eyes is was just the first phase in what could

27:51

potentially be much bigger escalation between Hamas between other Palestinian factions and with the Israeli government

27:57

is that how you you said it when it comes to us we are looking

28:03

for uh living in peace and security and prosperity like any other people around

28:08

the world but at the same time we cannot fight for to improve the conditions of a

28:14

prison we are looking to get rid of the prison itself we are looking to get rid of the occupation to have our own

28:21

independent state therefore is not we who decide that this is the first phase

28:26

they have already decided 67 years that this is the uh this is the future of

28:34

Palestinians to live either under under the occupation or to leave the country and therefore we are defending ourself

28:41

we are reacting to a to a longstanding incubation I believe that the situation

28:47

in the in the West Bank will be much more complicated than the Gaza Strip you

28:52

are talking about the same geography and the same de demography in the same area

28:57

you have thousands uh around 3 million Palestinians living with 1 million

29:04

settlers around 1 million settlers uh intermingled they move in the same area

29:11

in the same streets therefore if we will have or we we are going to witness any

29:17

kind of Confrontation or escalation or in or it will be very very very brutal

29:24

very harsh and uh therefore it could be more more worth than that what we have witnessed in the

29:30

Gaza Strip and I’m sure Palestinians not only in the Gaza Strip but also in the West Bank will not

29:37

accept to be uh good victims or silence victim or to leave their uh country or

29:44

their land simply because of this Israeli pressure one particular element

29:50

in the West Bank is is the the presence and the role that the Palestinian Authority has played and they have been

29:56

criticized heavily more more recently for their role in Janine where

30:01

Palestinians have seen them uh uh detaining certain Palestinian individuals and factions and cooperating

30:07

with Israel when it comes to certain security aims and the PA has been under

30:12

increasing uh skepticism from a lot of Palestinians over the last couple of years how long do you think the

30:19

structure like the PA has left before and inev inevitably collapses unfortunately I am not used to talk

30:26

about internal Palestinian issues with any especially International media

30:33

because we we Tred to keep it internally Palestinian Palestinian dialogue or or talks but uh

30:41

I have to be very Frank with you and honest uh most of the Palestinian they

30:47

consider the so-called Security operation of the PA in in the West Bank

30:54

especially in the camp of janim refugee camp of Janine is a betrayal and it is a it is a clear

31:03

submission to the occupation they have converted themsel as part of the security plans of the

31:09

Israelis uh how can I understand that at the time the security the Palestinian security forces are besieging the

31:16

refugee camp in Jinan which is very very strongly symbolic you everyone knows how

31:23

long uh the refugee camp in J is fighting and struggling for for Freedom

31:28

against the occupation how can we understand that the security forces the Palestinian

31:33

security forces are besieging the the refugee camp and at the same time it is

31:39

attacked from the air by uh by Israeli uh air crafts uh again this is

31:49

undermining the PA itself this is undermining and weakening the

31:54

Palestinian uh unity and existence but also it is weakening the capability of

32:01

Palestinians to stand up to fight against the occupation against the aggression therefore we have said it

32:08

publicly that it is condemned I mean what this what the Palestinian PA is doing it is condemned and uh it is not

32:16

acceptable at all and also we have said it repeatedly that they are sellings

32:23

Illusions if they expect that if they attack their own people people or besieging their own people that they

32:30

will get more from the Israelis or that any promises for any current or former

32:36

American Administration that it will help them after the failure of this political track for 30 years that now

32:44

they are going to give them more uh more political space or more political uh uh

32:53

sovereignity uh we are sure that uh day after day they are losing their

33:00

credibility they are losing their uh support on the ground and uh I

33:07

can expect that at the end of this year because this was also declared by

33:13

some uh ministers in the in the in the Israeli CET in the Israeli cabinet that

33:19

at the end of this year we might see the PA is leaving or disappearing and that

33:26

obviously leaves a huge power vacuum not just in the West Bank but in any conversation uh that is currently

33:33

happening about the future of leadership in Gazza and Hamas and I know you

33:38

yourself have have said that Hamas is willing to step aside politically in Gaza though not militarily I’m wondering

33:46

what is the military aims of Hamas going forward if they aren’t necessarily in

33:52

charge in Gaza Hamas first on one side Hamas is a bigger is a big movement

33:59

representing vast majority of the Palestinians not only in the Gaz strip Gaza Strip and the West Bank and in the

34:05

diaspora have a lot of other activities than to be a military uh Movement we

34:11

have the educational activities social activities religious activities and a lot of other political and diplomatic uh

34:18

activities and relationship therefore it is not only about military activities and Military

34:25

goal uh second we are an elected Movement we were elected in 2006 by the

34:31

vast majority of Palestinians but it based on this election when we won the

34:37

the majority we were blocked isolated and punished

34:43

unfortunately this isolation was partially implemented or

34:48

imposed in Us by the PA and ramal therefore when it comes to the daily

34:56

life in Gaza we have asked and worked for months during the last 15 months to negotiate

35:04

or to talk between the Palestinians with all factions including fat to form a

35:11

Palestinian Unity government or a Palestinian technocratic government to run Gaza Strip and the West Bank for a

35:17

limited time and to have very limited well defined tasks to rebuild Gaza Strip

35:23

to reunite the institutions and the Ministries and to prepare for for uh for

35:29

uh public or for uh elections comprehensive uh fair and transparent

35:36

elections unfortunately this has been blocked by the PA ramal then we have

35:41

received the Egyptian proposal to have a body to run the situation in the Gaza

35:47

Strip temporarily everything education and Health and Social Affairs and so on

35:52

uh formed of 10 to 15 technocratic Palestinians gazans who are not

35:59

affiliated to any uh to any faction and this has also unfortunately despite of

36:06

the uh it was an Egyptian proposal supported by all Arab countries and Islamic countries and some European

36:13

countries it has also blocked by the uh PA ramal therefore we are still in

36:21

negotiations or talks with the Egyptians how to continue how to get or

36:27

to form or how to be creative to have a body which is running the Gaza Strip

36:34

without being Affiliated to any faction mainly Hamas we are not eager to be part of any government we have said it many

36:41

times and we have handed over or the government in 2014 and we have repeated

36:47

this in 2017 we consider our ourself is as a

36:52

national resistance movement I mean being in the government this is not a main go for us but if all this

37:01

fails if if all these proposals fail we are not going

37:09

to uh we are not going to give up our

37:15

duties our obligations towards our people to continue running the Gaz STP

37:22

when it comes for to to the Civil Life I can reassure you that on the first day

37:29

after the ceas fair agreement all our brothers and sisters I’m talking about

37:35

the employees in the health sector uh in the education uh they have started to look

37:43

after their duties toward their own people how to contact the patients how

37:48

to contact the schools and so on even policemen yesterday we have read that

37:54

around 6,000 policemen their uniform they were distributed everywhere in the

38:01

gazin in in the Gaza Strip in the street to control the situation to control the

38:06

aid to secure a fair and uh uh trans

38:14

distribution of all these uh Aid coming into Gaza therefore if all these uh

38:22

possibilities fail we have to do our our jobs or to be

38:29

committed to our duties to our and responsibility towards our people we

38:35

cannot leave Gaza for chaos and for uh some people to create security problems

38:45

or inside the Gaza after the ceas Fair Deal one of the proposals that has been

38:51

floated uh that the US supports that parts of Israel uh supports is the idea

38:57

of having an international or a regional Coalition of powers that takes over control of Gaza and specifically this is

39:05

a scenario that does not involve Hamas or arguably you know any Palestinian

39:11

leadership uh in Gaza in particular is this something if it came to it would Hamas support this proposal we have said

39:19

it that we are not eager to be part of any government and we are ready to hand

39:24

it over to any Palestinian body supported by all Palestinian

39:30

factions uh second we have said it from the beginning the day after after the

39:36

Seas Fair after ending this aggression it has to be a Palestinian day and

39:41

Palestinians are mature enough to decide for themsel why should anyone decide for us

39:49

how to do what to do we are not deciding for Jordan or for uh for UK or for any

39:55

country what to do when to do how to do do Palestinians are clever enough smart

40:02

enough mature enough to decide for themselves therefore we cannot accept

40:08

any foreign entity or any foreign Force regardless of its name it of its

40:15

composition uh Arabic forces Islamic forces International forces peacekeeping forces and we have said it why should be

40:24

why should any kind of forces come come to Gaza to protect the occupation or to

40:29

protect us if if we are in need for a protection why not in the West Bank to

40:35

protect Palestinians from the daily aggressions of the cellit why not in Jerusalem why not to forces to implement

40:44

the UN resolutions regarding the Palestinian question since 1948 why it is only a a buffer zone to

40:55

protect or to secure the the Israeli security therefore we have said that we

41:01

cannot accept any kind of forces and we have we are going to consider them as

41:06

enemies the Donald Trump Administration has just entered into government once again and the last time they were in

41:13

office one of the lasting legacies that they had in the region was of course the Abraham Accords the normalization deals

41:20

between Israel and uh several Arab countries it was something that was highlighted specifically by Hamas uh as

41:27

part of the reasons for the launching of the attack on October 7 now that Trump is back in office and now that there’s a

41:34

ceasefire deal do you think those talks will restart in particular the

41:39

conversations around normalizing between Israel and the Sai government they can start anything they can initiate any any

41:48

proposal any any process but I am a

41:54

surgeon professionally I am a doctor the first step of an successful process is

42:01

to diagnose the disease you canot you can give the

42:07

patient all kind of medicine it might relieve him for a

42:13

while but it doesn’t solve the problem we have clear problem here the Israeli

42:21

occupation Palestinians after 67 years have 76 years have all the right to have

42:30

their own State independent state self- sovereign state the right of

42:36

return without solving this root question all initiatives all other

42:44

processes will lead to nothing except postponing or the next round of

42:52

escalation again October 7th

42:57

was a matter of time to see it because

43:03

we have seen a great uh efforts were done invested in uh in undermining the

43:11

Palestinian existence in undermining the Palestinian rights and to overcome the

43:17

Palestinian question by going directly to normalize the relationship with

43:23

Arabic countries or to ingrate Israel into the region without Sol solving the palestinia problem and N said why not to

43:31

consider the palestinia question as any internal problem like a lot of other

43:37

countries who have some minorities and they have to deal with them without considering Palestinians as a as a as an

43:46

independent entity for itself therefore okay they might be able sooner or later

43:52

to launch the so-called normalization process or the or to continue the the

44:00

process of Abraham Accords but I can reassure you it will

44:07

fail without ending the occupation without giving the

44:13

Palestinian their rights of independent states and and the right of rain without

44:18

stopping this Israeli mentality to be offensive and aggressive against not not

44:24

only against the Palestinians we see what they are doing in Lebanon what they are doing in Syria what they have done

44:31

in the Red Sea and Yemen everywhere therefore again without uh undermining

44:39

this incubation without ending this uh incubation uh it is a matter of time to

44:44

see the next round of escalation I hope that Trump can bring peace and stability

44:49

and security to to the region but this has to be built on a solid basis which

44:55

is mainly ending the occupation but uh what I hear every now and then in the

45:02

media U it reflects that they are not understanding very well in

45:08

depth the complexity here in the region the Mosaic

45:15

of the of the conflicts here it is look Jerusalem

45:21

Al maybe few square kilometers you cannot say

45:27

that we can okay why not we take Jerusalem Al and we give the

45:32

Palestinians instead of 10 square kilometers 100 kilm 100 square kilometer

45:38

in nef or in Sinai it is not about amount about

45:45

figures Jerusalem and Al ala is the third holiest Shrine in Islam this is

45:52

the most holiest mosque for one point 4 billion Muslims around the world

45:59

therefore if they don’t understand the depth of this conflict the religious

46:06

aspect the historical aspect the demography uh of the of of the region I

46:13

again I think it is a matter of time to see the next round of escalation and

46:18

speaking of those escalations um you know the last 15 months has been some a

46:24

domino effect on the region and a lot has changed and you mentioned Syria of course the collapse of the Assad regime

46:31

there and the uh success of the Rebel groups and in

46:36

particular there’s been a lot of questions over what their relationship will be to Palestinian groups and to

46:42

Hamas in particular how does Hamas view this new government in Syria do they view them as allies or do they view view

46:49

them as as stumbling block in what used to be you know an axis of resistance

46:54

that was in support of Hamas we have expressed publicly our happiness to see

47:01

Syrian people getting their freedom finally after paying a very high price

47:08

more than 650,000 people killed 200 still missed

47:14

12 million refugees it was a very big price to get rid of a

47:20

dictatorship but at the same time our policy is clear we are not part of any inter

47:28

internal disputes or conflicts and we are not part or of any bilateral uh

47:36

conflicts between two countries or two uh axes uh here in the region our main

47:44

cause is the Palestinian cause uh uh therefore we are asking everyone to

47:51

support us to achieve our goals our uh cus is directed to alaka to

47:59

Jerusalem uh we are welcoming any kind of support some countries have support

48:04

us us politically in the UN Security Council in the UN General Assembly public

48:11

statements some countries have supported us financially by supporting civil activities or other activities some

48:18

other countries like Iran they have supported us at the military level weapons equipment training and so

48:26

on but but again we are welcoming any support in the direction of Palestine to

48:31

get rid of the occupation we are not part of any conflicts what we are wishing for Syria is that Syria to be

48:41

United uh we don’t hope that we see divisions or Divi that Syria is divided

48:49

and that all syrians can take part in the future of in building the future of

48:54

Syria and lastly that Syria continue to stay behind Palestine behind the

49:01

Palestinian rights as it was for decades even before the Assad regimes and how do

49:07

you feel that over the last 15 months the Palestinian cause itself the issue

49:12

of Palestinian resistance has changed this is a a good question when it comes

49:19

what did we benefit from all what happened during the last 15 months because most of the people have

49:25

concentrated on what happened in Gaza the devastation killing of thousands of

49:32

people destruction and so on and yes they have the right to do it but at the same time I think

49:40

strategically we have uh achieved a lot look uh first of all Israel have

49:49

presented itself for decades that it is the country the most civilized the most

49:54

democratic country in the region representing the Western values of democracy and the human rights and so on

50:00

so on I think this is not this is not anymore valid in in the eyes of millions

50:07

of people around the world especially in the west Israel became maybe slowly

50:13

slowly a burden for its allies by this rug Behavior behaving as a state above

50:20

the law Israel failed to SEC Israel was always claiming

50:26

that they are the most secure place for any Jew around the world they they have failed to defend their own people on the

50:34

ground uh the media narrative I think millions of people around the world they

50:41

were not aware about the the reality on the ground they have always taken their

50:46

narrative from the Western media which was uh manipulated and sometimes

50:54

fabricated by the Zionist lues in in the media in the west so that a lot of people around the world they don’t have

51:01

any sense to the reality here and now they have seen it by their own eyes life

51:07

how the Israeli behaving yesterday I have he one of the most famous

51:12

journalist and he is also a religious man in the Israeli TVs how he is

51:17

describing Broly how many houses he was destroying every day how many people he

51:24

has killed therefore uh when it comes to the narrative when it comes to the image

51:29

of Israel when it comes to the legal aspect for the first time in history of this conflict Israeli leaderships

51:37

are uh considered accountable for genocide and for war crimes and crimes

51:44

against humanity in the icg in the ICC in the UN General Assembly uh for the

51:50

first time a vast majority in the based on the icg uh con consult

51:58

consultancy decision in the UN General Assembly they have said it clearly this is an occupation which is has which has

52:05

to end immediately I think the image of of observe of watching the Israeli un

52:13

representative shredding the UN Charter in front of the whole world the Israelis

52:20

forgetting that Israel without a un decision they were not able to be a

52:26

state this is the only state around the world which has been created in the UN and it

52:33

has it was created by the UN therefore without the UN Israel has no no right to

52:40

Exist by the way and this the same youan who give Israel the right to exist also

52:48

gave the Palestinians the right to have their own State an independent state it the same un who has give the Palestinian

52:55

the right to of return to our houses and homes we have forcefully displaced from

53:02

6 s years ago therefore I think when it comes to the Strategic uh uh elements of this

53:11

conflict uh I believe that the Palestinians have won a lot uh Israel

53:17

today after October 7th and after all these 15 months is not Israel as before

53:24

lastly I have to say that before October 7 there were we have observed and

53:30

witnessed a lot of internal division inside isra internal divisions inside

53:35

Israel legally in the military in the security in the media in the keset

53:41

everywhere I think that all these uh disputes and divisions have been

53:48

deepened uh after October 7th and after uh the uh the the war on Gaza and maybe

53:57

we might uh witness soon uh how much interally these

54:06

conflicts will escalate and it could it could lead to a civil war it could lead

54:11

to collapses here and there again Israel today is not Israel what which was

54:16

before October 7th finally Dr Bassam if we can bring our conversation to Hamas

54:22

and the future of Hames we spoke earlier about uh the show of defiance on that we

54:29

saw on Sunday that is is the Israeli government failed in its attempts to try and Destroy Hamas uh in terms of its

54:37

infrastructure but as an organization but certainly Hamas has suffered a tremendous amount of losses uh whether

54:44

you know in terms of the civilian infrastructure that you described government infrastructure on the ground in Gaza but also militarily but more

54:51

specifically in terms of its leadership and of course the two primary most

54:56

high-profile people uh whether it was y or is were assassinated by Israel during

55:02

that course of time what does Hamas look like today what is left of it as an

55:09

organization but also who leads It Forward from today yes I I I I

55:15

agree like our people we have uh received

55:21

very strong strike against our military capability

55:26

our leadership to leadership uh Figures were assassinated

55:32

or killed inside Gaza but I have also to say that Hamas is not present only in

55:39

the Gaza Strip it is also present in the West Bank and the diaspora Hamas is not

55:45

a a small group of young people who who have who car kalashnikovs no we are

55:52

talking about a very big well organized well Institution ized movement and we

55:59

have uh all these administrative capabilities to uh to see how can we

56:06

cope with all these losses and new changes after the

56:12

assassination of the leadership we have uh uh immediately we sat together and we

56:18

have decided how to move forward uh after choose after the

56:23

assination of hania we have chosen uh yir after the assassination or killing

56:29

of yir it it has we there we have formed

56:35

um a cabinet of five leaders uh representing all the areas

56:42

Gaza the West Bank and the diaspora and the top leadership and this cabinet of five people uh is now leading the

56:50

movement and it will continue leading the movement until the situation is more

56:56

more calm and settle down in the Gaza Strip and somewhere maybe also in the West Bank so that we can go back to the

57:04

original form or the original picture or to choose our top leaderships in all

57:10

positions because now I think it is extremely difficult and it’s extremely dangerous by the way to collect the

57:18

people and to go for election by the way Hamas is maybe is the only Palestinian

57:24

movement which is committed to democracy and we are running internal election

57:30

each four years regularly without any delay to choose our

57:36

leadership uh but today we are the movement is

57:42

functioning okay it is not it is under a huge pressure because of Gaza but in all

57:47

other areas the movement is functioning as before now about the the long-term

57:54

future again Hamas is is a Palestinian national resistance movement our goal is

58:00

to resist the occupation to get rid of the occupation and to uh to reach an an

58:07

independent Palestinian state if we reach it if we get rid of the incubation

58:12

we are ready to convert ourself to a political party and to integrate our

58:18

forces into the Palestinian national Army and at the individ individual level

58:25

level I’m sure sure I am originally I am a doctor I’m a physician I’m a

58:30

surgeon uh maybe there will be a chance to go back to do my original job as a

58:35

doctor in one of our hospitals or in one of our uh clinics and most of our

58:42

leaders have their own job as doctors or Engineers or academics or teachers at

58:49

universities uh therefore again it is our main job is how to help our

58:55

people able to get rid of the of the occupation then we are looking forward to live like any people around the world

59:02

in peace uh with our children to secure a better future for our families and our

59:08

children I have to ask you before you go you mentioned a lot about the escalations in the West Bank and what

59:13

you expect to be um further conflicts in the future if the ceasefire in Gaza

59:19

holds through all three phases and the fighting what we saw the destruction uh

59:24

reaches a sort of momentary pause does Hamas intend to take the fight to the

59:30

West Bank Hamas is not intending to take the fight in the West Bank Hamas is

59:35

intending to to defend its people against the daily 24 hours 7 days a week aggressions

59:43

of the settlers and of the Israeli soldiers against our people they have we have witnessed uh for the for for months

59:51

before October 7th how settlers are burning our houses how they are between

59:56

2000 and 2023 20,000 Palestinians killed on

1:00:02

checkpoints in prisons in Gaza therefore we are defending

1:00:10

ourself and uh if we reach a Seas Fair here it doesn’t mean first of all that

1:00:15

Gaza has reached its goal by the way even if we have reached a Seas fair but

1:00:20

Gaza is still besieged from the ground from the air and from the sea it means that Gaza is still occupied and this is

1:00:27

the legal definition of the situation in Gaza Strip Gaza is an occupied territory

1:00:33

like the West Bank like the therefore sure we are going to continue struggling

1:00:38

for our freedom and getting rid of the incubation now if the

1:00:44

Israelis uh you try to think rationally uh and decide to give the

1:00:52

Palestinian the chance to have their own state I’m sure they will spare the lives of

1:00:59

thousands of people who might be lost during any coming confrontation but this

1:01:05

this is their decision I don’t believe they they are going to do it I am sure that the shift in the Israeli Society to

1:01:12

the to the right and to the extreme right even up to the fascist phenomenas

1:01:18

we are observing today that this is irreversible and they have succeeded

1:01:25

slowly slowly to convert this conflict from a political conflict about borders

1:01:31

about people about statehood into a religious conflict we have seen and we

1:01:36

have watched and we have he all the politicians ministers prime minister

1:01:42

even the president keset members who are uh reciting phrases in the tah and

1:01:50

talmud while they were attacking Gaza STP they are converting this into an

1:01:56

uh uh uh religious conflict which mean it will be a conflict beyond the

1:02:02

Palestinian borders and they are going to invite maybe 1.45 billion Muslims to participate in

1:02:11

this conflict therefore it is it depends on the Palestinians it depends on the

1:02:16

supporters of Israel it depends on the International Community finally to take

1:02:21

a serious step a serious action to end this Behavior of Isel as a Rog State as

1:02:28

a state above the law and to end this occupation and to give the the chance

1:02:33

for the region to live in stability and security and prosperity and the

1:02:39

Palestinian people in their own independent state have a chance to

1:02:45

participate in doing well for the humanity around the region and around the world Dr Bon I I greatly appreciate

1:02:53

your time thank you very much for joining us today please thank you very

1:03:00

much thank you for watching this episode of the big picture and thank you to bessim Naim for being our guest today as

1:03:07

always we want to hear what you have to say about this conversation so please leave your thoughts in the comments

1:03:12

below and as always you can find this and all of our conversations in audio format wherever you get your podcast

1:03:18

from and until next time I’m Muhammad Hassan Sal

1:03:25

[Music]

oooooo

@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

Transkripzioa:

0:01

an outright rejection of Donald Trump’s

0:03

plan to relocate Palestinians to Jordan

0:06

and Egypt the two countries say that’s a

0:09

red line but how far can they go in

0:11

resisting the US president and what

0:14

might be the Fallout from forcing

0:16

Palestinians from their land this is

0:19

Inside Story

0:22

[Music]

0:36

[Music]

0:38

hello and welcome to the program I’m

0:39

Elizabeth panum Palestinians in Gaza are

0:42

returning to their homes as a fragile

0:44

ceas fire continues to hold but now US

0:47

president Donald Trump has proposed they

0:49

should go and permanently resettle in

0:52

other countries it’s a move opposed by

0:54

the Palestinians and by Arab states

0:56

across the region How likely is it that

0:59

Trump’s AA could become a reality and

1:02

what does it mean for Palestinians and

1:03

their struggle for sovereignty we’ll go

1:06

to our panel in just a few moments but

1:08

first Finton Monahan has this

1:13

report hundreds of thousands of

1:15

Palestinians in Gaza are returning to

1:17

the north more than a year after being

1:19

forced from their homes for many there’s

1:22

nothing left to come home to Israel’s

1:24

war has leveled whole districts and

1:26

destroyed most of the infrastructure in

1:28

the strip

1:30

rebuilding could take years but for the

1:33

people of Gaza it remains their

1:35

home if we had wanted to leave our land

1:38

we would have done so a long time ago

1:40

the genocidal War their waging will

1:42

achieve nothing against the Palestinians

1:45

we will remain on our land no matter

1:47

what happens Jordan has its people and

1:50

Egypt has its people our land is

1:52

Palestine and we will not

1:55

leave but newly elected US president

1:58

Donald Trump has made a controversial

2:00

proposal to relocate the people of Gaza

2:03

elsewhere I’d like Egypt to take people

2:06

and I’d like Jordan to take people I can

2:08

I mean you’re talking

2:10

about probably a million and a half

2:13

people and we just clean out that whole

2:16

thing the idea has been rejected by

2:19

Egypt and Jordan they say it’s forced

2:21

displacement a violation of the rights

2:23

of Palestinians and a threat to peace in

2:25

the region it’s also opposed by the UN

2:28

and the Arab League

2:32

the Lynch pin to this piece is that the

2:34

peace lives up to the aspirations of the

2:36

people which would materialize the

2:37

lawful right of the Palestinian people

2:40

and sovereign state on their home

2:42

soil we cannot ignore the big threat

2:45

represented by popular ideas regarding

2:47

the displacement of Palestinians from

2:48

their land these ideas completely

2:51

disregard the standing truth that the

2:53

Palestinian cause is not just a

2:55

population issue or a geographical

2:57

conflict but it’s a people’s cause who

2:59

are struggling for their legitimate

3:01

historical rights removing Palestinians

3:04

from Gaza is a policy that’s long been

3:05

pushed by Israel’s far-right politicians

3:08

as a prel to expanding illegal Israeli

3:10

settlements there this may be a position

3:13

shared by the Trump

3:15

Administration the newly appointed US

3:17

ambassador to the UN said before her

3:19

appointment that Israel has a Biblical

3:21

right to the

3:22

territory for many Palestinians this

3:25

talk recalls memories of 1948 when

3:27

hundreds of thousands of Palestinians

3:29

were forced L displaced in order to form

3:31

the state of Israel Palestinians call it

3:33

the nakba the

3:36

catastrophe today Palestinians once

3:38

again find themselves in terrible

3:40

circumstances and face the possibility

3:42

of history repeating itself Vincent

3:45

monan Al jazer for Inside

3:53

Story well let’s bring in our guests in

3:55

London Ontario is Michael link a human

3:58

rights lawyer and former un special

4:00

repor for human rights in the occupied

4:02

Palestinian territories in Cairo is

4:05

Hussein hadidi a former Egyptian

4:07

assistant foreign minister and Diplomat

4:09

and in New York is Omar Rahman a fellow

4:12

at the Middle East Council on global

4:13

Affairs and a US foreign policy

4:16

specialist a very warm welcome to all of

4:19

you Michael I’ll start with you

4:21

Palestinians many Palestinians including

4:23

president Mahmud Abbas Hamas Islamic

4:26

Jihad have all rejected this idea idea

4:30

and unless Palestinians themselves

4:32

agreed to it would this not be forcible

4:36

displacement or ethnic

4:39

cleansing that’s exactly what it would

4:41

be uh let’s keep in mind that under

4:43

international law Force displacement is

4:46

absolutely illegal it’s unlawful under

4:49

the uh Geneva conventions it would

4:51

amount to being a crime against humanity

4:54

under the 1998 Rome statute that created

4:56

the international criminal court when

4:58

that occurred in Bosnia in the 1990s it

5:01

was called Ethnic Cleansing it would be

5:03

ethnic cleansing today and indeed that’s

5:06

the term that was used by the Israeli

5:08

newspaper haratz the other day in one of

5:10

its editorials as well let’s keep in

5:12

mind this would be a uh a breach of

5:15

international diplomacy in June

5:18

2024 the United Nations security Council

5:21

passed resolution 2735 with respect to

5:25

demanding an immediate ceasefire one of

5:28

the terms that was in uh the security

5:31

Council resolution says and and I quote

5:33

that it rejected any attempt at

5:36

demographic or territorial change in the

5:39

Gaza Strip including any actions that

5:41

reduce the territory of Gaza so there

5:44

you have it it’s against law and it’s

5:46

against diplomacy but we have seen how

5:49

Israel regards international law and

5:52

diplomacy especially uh over the past

5:55

you know 15 months during the war on

5:58

Gaza Omar let me come to to you with

6:00

what you know the Israeli Finance

6:02

Minister bzal smotrich has been saying

6:04

because he’s been welcoming this idea he

6:06

said it’s an excellent idea and that

6:08

he’s going to work with the prime

6:10

minister with the cabinet to develop an

6:13

operational plan to implement as soon as

6:16

possible Netanyahu has in the past

6:19

rejected such Notions would he support

6:22

such something like this

6:25

now I don’t think Netanyahu has rejected

6:27

this at all I mean this seems to underly

6:30

uh the entire war effort in Gaza since

6:33

October 7th which is to destroy Gaza to

6:35

make it unlivable and to force the

6:37

population out now that required Egypt

6:39

to play a role there to open its borders

6:41

which Egypt refused just like it’s

6:42

refusing now the statement or the plan

6:45

quote unquote that’s come from Donald

6:47

Trump uh because Egypt sees this as an

6:49

existential threat and it also

6:51

recognizes uh you know the validity of

6:53

the Palestinians claims to their

6:54

Homeland to their to their rights and so

6:57

it’s not going to play a part in helping

6:59

Israel ethnically cleanse it so

7:01

Netanyahu is is is deeply entrenched in

7:03

this ideology it’s not just the ideology

7:06

of the far right they want to see the

7:08

Palestinians removed from their Homeland

7:10

and this is their plan and so I think

7:11

we’re seeing that reflected in the

7:14

statements of Donald Trump he’s very

7:15

ignorant of the palestinian-israeli

7:17

conflict the history of it uh what the

7:19

Palestinians want and he’s very

7:20

impressionable so I don’t think these

7:22

are reflective of his own ideas but of

7:24

the people around him who are also

7:26

paring what the Israeli rightwing is

7:28

saying Hussein I mean as Omar said Egypt

7:31

has rejected this idea completely

7:33

categorically rejected any displacement

7:36

of Palestinians from their land they

7:37

said be it shortterm or long longterm

7:41

and we haven’t heard from president CCE

7:43

since Trump made this announcement but

7:45

this is something he spoken about in the

7:47

past even last year he said that it

7:49

could even jeopardize the peace treaty

7:52

that Egypt signed with Israel in

7:55

1979 there’s a new Administration in the

7:58

White House since he made the those

8:00

comments that seem to support this Force

8:03

displacement but is there any reason to

8:05

believe that President Cece’s position

8:07

would have

8:09

changed no I don’t I I don’t think so

8:12

from day one uh after October 7 to uh to

8:18

2023 uh president CI has always uh

8:23

underlined uh the rejection of Egypt of

8:27

any Force displacement displacement of

8:29

the Palestinians either either from the

8:32

Gaza Strip or from the West Bank and on

8:35

many occasions he explained uh he

8:38

explained the Egyptian position and I

8:41

guess uh the statement that was released

8:44

the day before yesterday by the Egyptian

8:47

foreign ministry as well as the

8:49

statement by the Speaker of the House of

8:51

Representatives in Ciro yesterday uh

8:54

have made have made the Egyptian

8:56

position quite clear uh as as as far as

9:00

the uh president Trump’s remarks um we

9:05

we are not sure whether these were were

9:08

of the cuff remarks by the American

9:10

president or this would become the

9:12

official policy of the United States

9:15

government in uh the days and the months

9:18

to to come and uh going over the remarks

9:21

uh as such um we I we we we we got the

9:26

impression that maybe president Trump

9:29

was was was just sounding the Egyptians

9:32

jordanians and in his remarks also let

9:35

me point out Madam that he mentioned

9:38

Arab Arab Nations not only Egypt and

9:41

Jordan but in in one of the remarks he

9:45

said and Arab Nations should take this

9:48

well this idea this idea is not a novel

9:51

idea during last year some Israeli

9:55

politicians talked about Islamic

9:57

countries uh taking

9:59

the Palestinians but the problem the

10:02

question the main question here is is

10:06

whether president Trump was trying to

10:10

impose an Israeli idea on on the Arab

10:14

Nations or

10:15

not uh

10:18

he yeah it is isn’t it we’re often

10:20

wondering after he makes such statements

10:23

were they off the cuff or are they going

10:24

to be followed by some kinds of policy

10:27

decisions he said that he’s uh that

10:29

he’ll have more information after he

10:30

speaks to prime minister Benjamin

10:32

Netanyahu he hopes he said that

10:35

Netanyahu will visit him soon um Michael

10:38

we’ve heard about the Egyptian position

10:41

we’ve also heard from Jordan’s foreign

10:43

Ministry soon after those statements

10:45

were made the foreign minister in fact

10:46

said Jordan’s rejection of displacement

10:49

is firm and unwavering I mean Jordan

10:52

couldn’t make its position more clear

10:54

could

10:55

it not at all I mean this for um

10:59

countries in the region is a political

11:01

hand grenade of being thrown um into

11:04

their neighborhood um if um president

11:08

CCE of Egypt didn’t accept Palestinian

11:11

refugees leaving Gaza in any numbers

11:14

during the course of the 15-month war

11:16

he’s certainly not going to accept them

11:18

now the same thing is true with respect

11:20

to Jordan I’ve seen speculation in the

11:22

western press that both Egypt and Jordan

11:25

fear um destabilization if uh

11:28

Palestinian refugee

11:29

uh were forced to come into either

11:31

country in great numbers I don’t accept

11:33

that I just think there’s a long

11:35

historical memory in the Arab world with

11:38

respect to what happened in 1948 with

11:40

700,000 refugees not being able to

11:42

return in 1967 when the further 300,000

11:46

Palestinian refugees were not able to

11:48

return after that war um that all of

11:50

them realize uh that a displacement of

11:53

Palestinians means permanent Exile and

11:56

means the decline of the Palestinian

11:58

cause and this is something that

12:00

regardless of what Egyptian or Jordanian

12:03

or Arab leaders would think the streets

12:05

in those countries would never accept

12:08

and Omar besides the fact that it might

12:10

be destabilizing to have hundreds or

12:12

hundreds of thousands of refugees arrive

12:16

as Michael is saying would the public in

12:18

those countries how would they look at

12:21

their governments accepting these

12:22

refugees would they not see it as the

12:25

governments participating in ethnic

12:27

cleansing

12:30

yeah absolutely and I agree with

12:31

everything Michael said I mean there’s a

12:33

historical memory here in the Middle

12:34

East which Trump does not have uh which

12:37

understands that forc displacement of

12:38

Palestinians is a permanent thing and

12:40

that those refugees are stuck uh in

12:43

those countries and the the countries

12:45

have to absorb them and in the past that

12:48

has been very destabilizing it was

12:49

destabilizing in 48 through the 50s it

12:51

was Dil destabilizing after

12:54

1967 uh and it many wars have been

12:56

fought in the region as a result Israeli

12:59

policies of displacement of Palestinians

13:01

so nobody wants to be a parted to that I

13:03

think the people across the region

13:05

project that uh fully um and don’t want

13:08

their governments to be a part of it and

13:09

those governments recognize that thing

13:11

they don’t want to be a party to it and

13:12

they don’t want to face their own

13:13

populations so nobody here is going to

13:15

just bow to the United States here

13:17

despite the leverage that it has

13:19

financial leverage U is is a major uh

13:22

Aid uh provider to to both the Egyptian

13:26

and the Jordanian governments but you

13:28

know this is this is is something that

13:29

they view in much different terms than

13:31

this kind of transactional relationship

13:33

so I don’t see them acquiescing so

13:36

easily and Hussein as Omar mentioned the

13:40

US provides around an average it’s

13:41

provided of around $1.6 billion doar in

13:45

military assistance to Egypt since it

13:47

signed the peace treaty with Israel in

13:50

1979 it has enormous leverage with Egypt

13:54

uh like you said we don’t know if these

13:55

comments were made off the cuff if he’s

13:57

going to follow through but how much of

13:59

the leverage that the US has with Egypt

14:03

do you think it would be willing to lose

14:05

or how worried would the Egyptian

14:08

government be right

14:10

now Frankly Speaking when it comes to

14:12

the Palestinian issue the Palestinian

14:15

question Egypt from 1948 up to uh now uh

14:21

Egypt when I say Egypt uh not only

14:24

various governments uh since

14:27

1948 but also the people

14:29

and the Egyptian Army we have we have

14:33

invested

14:35

uh human Human Resources we have

14:39

invested hundreds un Untold hundreds of

14:43

billion of US dollars in fighting for

14:46

the Palestinians and for the Egyptian

14:49

National Security so I don’t think I

14:51

don’t think today or tomorrow any

14:55

Egyptian government would Aquas to any

14:58

American pressures even if this pressure

15:01

would be accompanied

15:04

by withholding or suspending uh uh any

15:08

kind of assistance that the United

15:10

States has been providing Egypt in the

15:13

context of the peace treaty that we

15:15

signed with uh Israel back in March

15:19

1979 this is an engagement this is an

15:22

American responsibility uh and and I

15:25

guess that if and I I I I don’t hope so

15:29

if the Trump Administration would think

15:33

of pressuring Egypt by was holding uh

15:36

the military aid I don’t think that

15:39

Egypt would succ to this to to this to

15:42

this kind of pressure and Michael given

15:44

that you know the Camp David Accords the

15:47

peace treaty between Egypt and Israel is

15:50

such a Cornerstone of US foreign policy

15:53

in the region it serves us interests in

15:56

the region would this Administration be

15:59

willing to risk that well um I suspect

16:03

the Israelis are not willing to risk

16:05

that if the Egyptians made it clear that

16:07

any attempt to push Palestinians out of

16:10

Gaza into Egypt um would mean the end of

16:14

the Accords from 1978-79 um I don’t see

16:18

that uh being in Egypt’s interest I

16:20

don’t think uh long-term thinkers in

16:22

Israel would see that being an Israeli

16:24

interest uh either so that’s why I think

16:27

this musing uh by Donald Trump echoing I

16:30

think what the far right um is saying in

16:33

Israel um uh is not going to go very far

16:37

I suspect there’ll be other pressure

16:39

that was going to be put on both Egypt

16:41

and uh and Jordan by by Trump um that

16:44

may not necessarily mean the

16:45

displacement of the Palestinians but I

16:47

can see where the United States is going

16:49

to would would withhold um the kind of

16:51

reconstruction Aid that Gaza would need

16:54

in order to push his way keep in mind

16:57

that you know the World Bank and other

16:59

major International institutions are

17:01

suggesting it’d be somewhere between uh

17:03

45 and 60 billion dollar to want to

17:06

rebuild Gaza over the next 15 to 20

17:09

years where’s that money going to come

17:11

from and part of it’s going to depend

17:13

upon the diplomacy of the um of the Arab

17:16

Gulf States and how much they want to be

17:18

able to challenge Donald Trump uh with

17:21

respect to these kinds of plans yeah

17:23

that’s a really interesting point Omar

17:26

do you think you know is the US would

17:28

the us pressure risk alienating key

17:31

allies in the region Gulf Arab um Gulf

17:34

Arab allies you know with Trump with

17:37

whom Trump has good relations there’s

17:38

Saudi Arabia um there’s Qatar turkey all

17:43

of whom support the Palestinian

17:45

cause no I put a tremendous amount of

17:48

importance on that relationship heading

17:50

into Trump’s second term I think uh

17:52

Israel and the people Trump has put in

17:55

his cabinet have a have a tremendous

17:56

amount of influence on him but also his

17:58

Rel relationships with those leaders in

18:00

the Gulf are very important and are

18:01

going to play a very important role uh

18:04

in the period ahead in terms of shaping

18:05

Trump’s foreign policy because again

18:07

he’s ignorant of the region I think he’s

18:09

ignorant of the history and the issues

18:10

and so he’s impressional but at the same

18:12

time he’s listening to those around him

18:14

Whoever has his ear and shaping policy

18:17

accordingly um those states don’t want

18:19

to see Trump destabilizing the region

18:22

completely I mean this past 15 months

18:24

has been uh you know a worst case

18:27

scenario or not quite a worst case

18:28

scenario if if full War had broken out

18:30

in the region that would have been worst

18:31

case scenario and those Gulf States were

18:33

instrumental I think in trying to uh

18:36

work with the parties to De to stabilize

18:38

things and deescalate the situation they

18:39

did what they could um at the same time

18:43

uh Trump you know if he’s listening to

18:45

the Israelis he’s listening to these

18:46

type of plans from the far right and

18:47

those people around him those are going

18:49

to be uh very difficult uh pills to

18:53

swallow uh if he moves forward for Egypt

18:55

for Jordan and for others and I think

18:57

those Gulf States are going to try to

18:59

prevent uh this from just um you know

19:02

turning the region uh into a a much more

19:06

uh difficult or worse situation so

19:07

they’re they’re worried about Syria

19:09

they’re worried about Lebanon they’re

19:10

worried about Palestine uh they’re

19:12

worried about Egypt and Jordan and

19:13

they’re going to do what they can to um

19:15

I think you know Steer Trump in the

19:17

right direction yeah and I guess so much

19:20

of this comes down to he has there’s so

19:22

many people speaking to him and so who

19:25

is he listening to is he listening to

19:26

the Israelis and the far right in the

19:29

Coalition does he care about this

19:31

historic normalization agreement that

19:33

he’s been trying to broker between Saudi

19:35

Arabia and Israel and would this push

19:38

for Egypt uh Hussein would the push you

19:41

know for Egypt and Jordan to take in

19:44

Palestinian refugees it would certainly

19:46

complicate those efforts would it not

19:48

but what is it that he cares about most

19:50

because he can’t have it all we know

19:54

during the first the first term of of

19:57

President Trump

19:59

uh he uh adopted uh various

20:04

pro-israeli decisions that uh run

20:08

counter to international law and counter

20:11

to uh Security Council resolutions

20:13

concerning the Golan Heights

20:16

concerning J Jerusalem and concerning

20:20

the uh settlements in in the West Bank

20:23

and uh we are afraid that in his second

20:27

term he would build on on on on on these

20:30

decisions in the same the same the same

20:32

past pro-israeli uh position uh all the

20:36

way but you have raised an important an

20:39

important Point uh which is uh his

20:43

eagerness to uh expand the What’s called

20:47

the Abraham Accords in in in other words

20:50

to bring in Saudi Arabia in these

20:53

Accords we know we know the conditions

20:57

uh put Force by

20:59

uh Saudi Arabia to normalize relations

21:01

with Israel now the question is is

21:04

normalization of Israel s the relations

21:07

a priority for president Trump in his

21:10

second term or he would uh be more fav

21:15

favorable to the positions taken by the

21:19

Israeli far far right uh calling for the

21:23

annexation of uh most areas in in the in

21:27

the West in the West Bank so uh uh it

21:31

remains to be seen so far uh we we we

21:35

cannot uh speak for sure what what will

21:39

be the Middle Eastern policy of the

21:41

second term of the Trump trump

21:44

Administration will it be a continuation

21:46

of the first term or there will be

21:48

changes that will take into account the

21:51

real week we’re only one week into this

21:54

Administration and we know that things

21:55

can change not just from week to week

21:57

but from day today Michael does the

21:59

makeup of the administration so far and

22:01

the people that Trump has put in key

22:03

positions the US ambassador to his

22:06

nominee for US ambassador to Israel Mike

22:08

hakabe for instance rejected the idea

22:11

that of there ever being a Palestinian

22:13

State his defense secretary Pete Heth

22:16

has said that Israel should Annex the

22:17

West Bank what does that tell us about

22:19

what to expect from this

22:22

Administration Donald Trump’s instincts

22:24

are with the right and the far right in

22:27

uh in Israel and he surrounded himself

22:30

by by policy Hawks you you’ve mentioned

22:32

several the US Secretary for defense the

22:36

US ambassador to Israel let’s name some

22:38

more the US ambassador to the United

22:40

Nations has said that she believes that

22:42

Israel has a Biblical right uh to the

22:44

West Bank and doesn’t believe in a

22:45

Palestinian State the chair of the

22:47

National Security Council um in the uh

22:51

in the same boat as well um uh the US

22:54

Secretary of State uh is deemed to be a

22:57

policy Hawk with respect to Israel so I

22:59

suspect we’re going to get a largely

23:01

uniform um view of advice going to

23:04

Donald Trump they’re going to probably

23:06

embolden his worst instincts and this is

23:10

where I think you know the Arab world is

23:12

going to have to rise to the challenge

23:14

um I think many Arab countries certainly

23:16

those who belonged uh to the Abraham

23:19

Accords prove their irrelevance during

23:22

the course of the 15-month war they

23:24

didn’t break from the diplomatic

23:26

relations they had created with Israel

23:28

during the course of this war when many

23:30

were saying these were uh this was in

23:32

fact amounting to genocide if the

23:35

Abraham Accords are there in the in the

23:38

eyes of those countries that belong to

23:39

it to protect Palestinian rights this

23:42

would have been a moment for them to

23:43

have said either this war ends or we

23:46

withdraw from the abrahamic courts the

23:48

war didn’t end and the abrahamic courts

23:50

have continued if um the thing I think

23:53

we all should be fearing now is that

23:56

beyond the possible expulsion of

23:58

Palestinians from the from Gaza is the

24:01

intensification of settlement building

24:03

in the West Bank and that’s often seen

24:05

by commentators over the last week as a

24:07

background agreement between uh Trump

24:10

and Netanyahu if the Abraham Accord

24:13

members cannot uh stop um these kinds of

24:17

deals from going forward of dramatically

24:19

increasing the annual increase in in the

24:21

population of Israeli settlers then

24:25

Abraham Accords really look like figleaf

24:28

for the continuation of Israeli

24:30

domination of the Palestinians so Omar

24:33

where to then does does all of this

24:36

leave the Palestinian people and how

24:40

worried are you about these plans of

24:43

sending them to Egypt and Jordan that

24:46

they could uh perhaps not come to

24:49

fruition but that we could actually see

24:51

plans regardless of the legal challenges

24:53

that they would face I’m glad you asked

24:55

that question because I wanted to bring

24:57

this conversation back uh away from just

24:59

the state-to-state politics back to the

25:01

people on the ground because the scenes

25:03

we’ve seen over the past two days

25:04

remarkable absolutely remarkable scenes

25:06

of hundreds of thousands of people

25:08

returning to the north uh after Israel

25:10

just decimated destroyed all the

25:13

infrastructure up there as a as a

25:15

testament to Palestinian resilience and

25:17

determination to stay on their land in

25:19

spite of everything uh that’s happened

25:21

against them this is not only a message

25:23

uh for uh for for the Israelis and for

25:26

the wider World in terms of what

25:27

Palestinian intentions are and their

25:29

determination but there’s a a larger

25:31

context to this after 1948 Israel also

25:34

expelled the Palestinian population

25:36

destroyed their Villages uh for the

25:39

purpose of so that they had nothing to

25:41

return to and this is just telling

25:43

people that we will return that that no

25:45

nothing you can do will prevent the

25:47

Palestinian people from their goals from

25:50

their determinations uh to stay on their

25:52

land and so the issue of return is a

25:54

major issue so despite all of of what

25:57

Trump is trying to do or what the

25:58

Israelis are trying to do and what they

26:00

have done in the Gaza Strip which is I

26:02

mean Beyond anybody’s imagination in

26:04

terms of the catastrophic the

26:05

destruction the genocide everything else

26:08

the Palestinian people are staying there

26:09

and they’re resilient and they have a

26:10

voice here so nobody’s just going to

26:12

displace them who’s going to come in and

26:14

send them to Egypt or send them to

26:16

Jordan after Israel just bombed uh the

26:18

hell out of Gaza for the past 15 months

26:21

and those people remained uh and are

26:23

alive and are willing to return back to

26:25

the place that Israel just displaced

26:27

them from so that is really The crucial

26:29

thing it’s not just High politics

26:31

negotiations Diplomacy aid all that kind

26:33

of stuff what do the people on the on

26:35

the ground want and what are they going

26:37

to do absolutely the steadfastness of

26:39

the Palestinian people after so many

26:42

decades of displacement I’m afraid we’ll

26:45

run out of time but I want to thank all

26:47

of our guests for this important

26:48

discussion that is Michael Link in

26:50

London

26:51

Ontario uh Hussein haridi in Cairo and

26:55

Omar Rahman in New York and thank you to

26:58

to for watching you can see the program

27:00

again anytime by visiting our website

27:02

al.com and for further discussion do go

27:05

to our Facebook page that’s

27:08

facebook.com/ AJ insidestory you can

27:11

also join the conversation on X our

27:13

handlers at AJ inside story from me

27:16

Elizabeth Pano and the whole team here

27:18

bye for now

27:26

[Music]

oooooo