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“Israel’s masterplan…to ethnically cleanse Gaza” | Norman Finkelstein | UNAPOLOGETIC

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waNjFRCfEQc)

In an extended interview, Norman Finkelstein, the political analyst and author who has studied Palestine and Israel for decades, speaks to us about the fate facing Palestinians.

Finkelstein gives his frank views on how Israel, along with the Trump administration, will continue and accelerate its plan to ethnically cleanse Palestinians as much as they can in the area between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea.

Over the course of the discussion, Finkelstein speaks about how the current ceasefire is just a temporary respite. We discuss the feasibility of Donald Trump and Benjamin Netenyahu’s idea to transfer the people of Gaza elsewhere, how Jordan and Egypt will react to that, what it means for broader Israeli and Arab normalisation, international law and Israel’s record of trying to evade international justice, the tenuous position of the current president of the International Court of Justice, Julia Sebutinde. We also take in a short history of Palestinian resistance and Hamas’ historical efforts at diplomacy. And we speak about Finkelstein’s reflections over the last year on the devastation that Israel’s genocide has wreaked, his family and why he has dedicated so much of his time to studying and advocating for justice.

Chapters:

00:00 Intro

02:57 Ceasefire and potential transfer

13:05 How feasible is a forced exodus

31:04 Scale of destruction and annexation of the West Bank

47:04 What about Egypt and Jordan 53:06 Israel and the long arc of history

01:05:00 Israel’s dark arts with international justice

01:24:00 Julia Sebutinde compromised 01:42:00 Does international law still matter?

01:53:00 A short history of Palestinian resistance

02:08:00 Finkelstein’s family and interest in Palestine

02:16:30 Is this the lowest point for the Palestinian struggle?

Transkripzioa:

Intro

0:00

you think you have a military option against us look at Gaza we did see

0:06

extremely defiant images of the people marching back um we did see Hamas coming out with almost pristine clothing after

0:13

after Israel had completely bludgeoned in north of Gaza like just where were these Hamas Fighters how did they manage

0:19

to evade all of this I believe that they will because they will get the okay from

0:24

Trump they will Annex the West Bank Israel’s happy with

0:30

the ceasefire why not the people will be there there will be no food no water no

0:37

fuel no electricity there will be no shelter and at some point there will be

0:44

only two options left for the people of Gaza that I think the Saudis are

0:50

worried that if they enter into an alliance with Israel their role is going

0:56

to be as slaves I’m really I mean I’ve already told you this but I’m really impressed by the patience you’ve

1:02

displayed and continued to display throughout this entire day no

1:07

problem all right I am rolling over here okay you want to do this clap thing okay so we just there we go we’re starting

1:15

hello good day welcome back to Unapologetic I’m your host ashah kareim and uh today I’m with normal felstein

1:21

who really needs no introduction especially in the last 15 months he’s been one of the most sort of uh

1:28

acclaimed voices uh speaking out against Israel’s atrocities and giving information about what’s happening in

1:34

Gaza and everything else uh Norman filen welcome to the show thank you for having me thank you it’s it’s thank you for

1:40

your time it’s going to be a long conversation and so thanks in advance for that uh our aim uh during the next

1:47

sort of two and a half maybe even 3 hours is to take stock of the events that’s occurred in the last year from

1:53

your perspective try to understand those events in a historical context um assess

1:59

how changes in the region and in the US will impact the way forward and also just to get to understand why you have

2:06

taken such a deep interest in understanding uh the conflict uh so yeah

2:11

thanks for joining us thank you okay just to begin with um it’s now actually it’s almost about 16 months not even 15

2:18

months anymore um since October the 7th um there’s a very fragile ceasefire in

2:23

place um whether it’s even a ceasefire if that’s the right terminology I guess we’ll get to start speaking about that

2:29

we are likely to to see increased escalations of violence in the West Bank um Trump is now the president of the US

2:35

and he has said that uh you know we should clear out Gaza whatever that may mean when you just look at everything

2:41

that’s going on here uh what’s your immediate sort of take on current events immediate take on current events is that

2:50

I do not believe that there is grounds for optimism of

2:57

course one wants the ceas about that there should be no dispute no

3:04

quarrel no disagreement those people have suffered

3:10

a unspeakable horror for the past 16

3:15

months and a ceasefire however

3:21

temporary is of course to be welcomed even during the Vietnam war

3:29

of which I have vivid memories there would occasionally be what was called for example the

3:37

Christmas ceasefire when the United States stopped its bombing of

3:44

Vietnam now everybody knew that the bombing would

3:49

resume when the Christmas season passed

3:54

but certainly nobody begrudged the fact

4:00

that the people even however temporarily were being able to get up in

4:08

the morning and not have bombs dropping on

4:13

their head or to go to sleep at night and not have artillery shows directed

4:21

against them however having said that and not

4:29

ising the role of the messenger of bad news I just don’t believe there’s any

4:37

grounds for optimism for a very simple reason and

4:43

the reason is this Israel’s happy with the

4:49

ceasefire why not the people will be

4:54

there there will be no food no water no fuel no

5:02

electricity there will be no shelter and at some

5:09

point there will be only two options left for the people of Gaza one to

5:17

leave or two Hamas resumes its armed

5:25

resistance and then Israel will have the pretext for round two in the

5:33

horrors now you may object to what I’m saying undergrounds that but the

5:40

ceasefire Incorporated humanitary assistance and eventually reconstruction

5:48

in Gaza I don’t believe that’s going to be

5:53

remembered after operation pillar of Defense in

6:01

2012 the Israelis had to decide whether to agree to a

6:07

ceasefire and the ceasefire included Provisions for ending the criminal

6:15

blockade of Gaza and the defense minister of the

6:20

time was AUD Barak and aood Barack famously said to

6:27

the knesset when they were debating whether to sign the

6:34

ceasefire he said in order to encourage them to agree to it he said once a

6:41

ceasefire is in place everybody forgets about the rest what you agreed to

6:49

everybody forgets it and that’s what’s going to happen here if bombs aren’t

6:56

dropping if people aren’t dying a violent death which one has to

7:04

distinguish from a death from starvation if bombs aren’t

7:10

dropping if people aren’t dying of violent death then it disappears from

7:17

the headlines once the hostages end on both sides the hostages are exchanged it

7:22

disappears from the headlines and the only time it will

7:27

reappear is if Hamas then says what happened to the

7:33

humanitarian Aid what happened to the Reconstruction because Israel won’t allow it of course it won’t allow it we

7:40

have a long history one of the sad things about listening to

7:47

pundits discuss the matter is they have no knowledge

7:54

whatsoever of the history there was an agreement to lift the the criminal

8:01

blockade of Gaza after operation castled in

8:08

20089 after the maavi mura incident when the humanitarian

8:13

flotilla came under attack from Israel and to create an international Scandal there was an

8:20

agreement to lift the blockade after

8:26

operation pillar of Defense after after operation protective AG in

8:33

2014 nothing came of it it’s all exactly you know very cynical but very true what

8:40

Barack says e Barack said the defense minister once the Prime Minister he said

8:47

once the ceasefire is in place everybody forgets the rest and after operation

8:54

protective Edge in 2014 there were Provisions to eat the

9:00

blockade of Gaza and as we all know nothing came of

9:07

it and that was actually the um

9:13

preamble to the great March of return in

9:18

uh March 2018 the attempt to get that blockade

9:25

lifted uh and actually I think that was the main

9:30

stimulus behind the um attack on October 7th that

9:37

blockade of Gaza so um I see no reason

9:45

to anticipate that what happened multiple times in the past won’t happen

9:52

again the humanitarian Aid yes the first few days they’re going to let

9:57

in uh human Arian Aid then they’re going to conjure

10:03

excuses they’re going to say that Hamas is stealing the aid they’re going to say

10:09

that we can’t admit cement because Hamas will use it to reconstruct the tunnel

10:16

system and all sorts of pretexts will be created uh and then the people are going

10:22

to be faced to the very dire Choice whether to

10:31

stay and starve and be

10:36

homeless or to figure out a way to leave and for Hamas there will be the

10:44

Stark choice of honor the ceasefire not withstanding that all the

10:51

other Provisions under stage one stage two and

10:57

stage three all the other Provisions are discarded I do share your lack of

11:04

optimism simply because of the history I mean I think though just to not to sort of challenge what you say but just to

11:09

kind of because because I actually agree with it but just to kind of give it more Nuance right it’s the question of

11:16

feasibility um so it it’s it’s it was feasible for Israel previously to do

11:22

what they did um because the people in Gaza while they had a very minuscule

11:27

life and a very sort of limited life did have a life they did have homes um while they couldn’t be given you know

11:33

coriander and spices they could get other spices and they could exist right now it’s completely Rubble um we’re

11:40

still going to get to and we’re still going to speak about the fact that there has been a lot of just defiant symbolism

11:45

that’s come out from the people of Palestine and from Hamas Fighters but it just doesn’t seem feasible anymore and

11:52

at the same time given the Defiance we saw of the people marching back to not their homes but what remains of their

11:58

homes it may not even be feasible to move them out because there will be

12:03

resistance just Humane you know reluctance because of the whole history of the nakba and everything else so just

12:09

in terms of feasibility what what sort of is This tug OFW between I think the Israeli plan

12:16

which has been clearly stated multiple times since October 7th if not before to move them to Sinai or somewhere else to

12:22

move the people of Raza somewhere else um and Trump is now you know echoing what was said by by by by his prede to

12:29

some extent um but just a lot more blatantly As Trump usually does and the

12:34

desire and just sort of what how would we there’s going to be this tug of war right on feasibility so when you see

12:41

when you add that into the equation where do you see this going that’s a fair question where I see it going is as

12:50

follows if everything can be done by Israel below the

12:55

radar that is to say without getting any camera coverage of what’s going on

13:04

they will just persist in their path of making Gaza first

13:12

unlivable and then second uh facilitating

13:18

the exposion de facto exposion of the population in Gaza the one variable

13:28

which my friend uh muen Rabani caused me to think about was the

13:37

fact that Trump certainly knows that the

13:44

Gaza question became a escalating catastrophe

13:51

for Joe Biden the previous president and that public

13:57

opinion was was not overwhelmingly but certainly

14:03

substantially preponderantly opposed to what Israel

14:08

was doing which would make it hard for Trump to give blanket support to Israel

14:15

in the event that hostilities erupted again and so Trump

14:21

doesn’t want the Gaza Albatross on his watch

14:29

Now it only becomes an albatross if Gaza is above the rer in

14:38

terms of news coverage uh otherwise nobody will even

14:43

know what’s going on it’s not as if the American Media or the European media are

14:51

eager to expose Israel’s

14:57

continued uh master plan

15:03

to by hook or by crook ethnically cleanse Gaza there there were three

15:10

aspects I should clarify it there were three aspects

15:16

to the reaction by Israel after October 7th the first and the most obvious was

15:25

simply blood Revenge it was not only what the Goins had done

15:36

on October 7th but that

15:42

outrage was multiplied a thousandfold by the fact that it was

15:51

unmention subhumans these uh un mention in Gaza

16:00

had not only carried out the operation on October 7th

16:08

but had exposed the Uber mench the

16:16

Superman had exposed the

16:21

weaknesses of the chinks in the armor of Israel that this Cutting Edge

16:31

Hightech Society with all of its rasmas

16:36

technological rasmas had been outsmarted and outwitted by the inter mention by

16:42

the subhumans in Gaza so the blood Revenge which you would you say it’s

16:50

normal I suppose was multiplied a

16:57

thousandfold by the racist Uber menion

17:03

Superman mentality of the Israelis so that was and it continues to

17:10

be a major factor in the Israeli reaction secondly there was the there

17:19

was the feeling among Israelis that they what they call their

17:24

deterrence capability their ability to

17:29

terrorize the Arab world had been significantly undermined by what

17:37

happened October 7th because the thought now began to

17:44

percolate in the minds of me many Arabs that maybe there’s a military

17:52

option against Israel maybe it’s

17:57

not militarily Invincible if Hamas a

18:05

ragtag semi- gorilla Army could carry out this

18:11

operation so the idea begins to percolate that Israel is not the

18:19

Invincible force that we believed in it and so Israel had to to use the

18:27

terminology that commonly resorted to it had to restore

18:33

its deterrence capability it had to remind the Arabs who’s in charge the

18:39

Arabs and Muslims who’s in charge and basically the message it wanted to

18:45

transmit was you think you have a military option against

18:52

us look at GSA or what remains of Gosa

18:58

and the third goal was as with every crisis there is a

19:07

cliche uh that a crisis is also an opportunity or can be made into an

19:15

opportunity and the crisis of October 7th was now conceived by the Israeli

19:23

leadership as an opportunity and the opportunity was was

19:29

to once and for all solve the Gaza

19:35

question for once and for all up until

19:40

October 7th Israel to use its terminology

19:46

periodically mowed the lawn in Gaza um which is basically high-tech

19:54

Killing Spree I referred to them already earlier operation

19:59

there were many operations I mean there are so many that try as I could I could never commit them to Memory because

20:06

there are so many but the ones that are most Salient were operation castled pillar of the

20:14

fence protective Edge these were Hightech Killing Spree but now Israel

20:20

resolved we’re not going to mow the lawn any longer in Gaza we’re going to exter

20:27

Pate that means pull out out by the root we’re going to extrae every blade of

20:34

grass in Gaza um and that remains Israel’s goal

20:41

it’s not Chang I mean sometimes you listen to people these pundits and they

20:47

say well it’s hard to predict what’s going to happen in stage two and three

20:53

hard to predict do you really believe

20:59

that prime minister Netanyahu and his Entourage or Israeli Society in general

21:06

do you really believe they had a a revelation an epiphany and now they’re

21:14

going to in the immortal words of John lennin Give Peace a chance no that’s not

21:21

going to happen they’re going to try to

21:26

achieve their goal which remains unshakable of resolving the Gaza

21:34

question once and for all and the only

21:40

constraint is going to be that if the situation once again gets out of hand

21:48

and Garner news coverage that Trump president Trump will

21:54

probably step in because he doesn’t want the Gaza Albatross he already

22:01

saw that it did a lot of damage to the Biden

22:06

Administration and he doesn’t want to go through that again what do you think I mean you’ve mentioned earlier that for

22:13

in many ways the ceire is kind of convenient the ceasefire definitely did coincide coincide with with Trump coming

22:19

coming into Power happen just you know it just announced just a week before he he came into power and went into effect

22:25

the day before he came into Power what do you think kind of accelerated that that beyond the fact that it’s kind of

22:30

convenient for Israel has it got to do with Saudi pressure I mean he’s also announced that the Saudis will invest

22:36

600 billion and he’s asked for a trillion and I mean and why I’m asking the question it’s just to kind of push back a little bit again at your second

22:42

point that Israel have tried to make an example of Gaza to kind of tell the Arab

22:47

world don’t mess with us but hasn’t it maybe just achieved the other objective

22:53

from the sense of you know we once thought you may be a reasonable person or or actor in the

23:01

region and so as much as you know a lot of the Arab states have sort of

23:06

collaborated with Israel against the Palestinians they they thought they were maybe doing it with the kind of belligerent but rational person but now

23:13

they’re like if this entity is so irrational are we safe collaborating with them um to an extent not not that

23:21

they have also sort of gotten a conscious suddenly but just from their own sort of preservation perspective and

23:26

secondly despite what they did to Gaza which is really really bad and really really horrible

23:32

and I don’t think it’s possible for us to quantify it and I I may I dare say not even people in Gaza have maybe

23:39

processed just how horrible it is right but I mean we did see extremely defiant

23:44

images of the people marching back um we did see Hamas coming out with almost pristine clothing after after Israel had

23:52

completely bludgeoned the north of Gaza like just where were these Hamas Fighters how did they manage to evade

23:58

all all of this so in a way it just to push back and very gently to push back cuz I do agree with the momentum of

24:04

where your arguments going like sometimes there’s almost a Murphy’s Law or like a point of irony because despite

24:13

the savagery Hamas is still seemingly I wouldn’t say intact but just you know

24:19

not not not not at all completely destroyed um and the Palestinians are

24:24

very defiant and there’s probably a lot more mistrust by actors in the region even if they if they’re hiding that

24:29

mistrust on how they feel about Israel okay let’s begin with the first

24:36

question I’m not sure why you would classify what classify Israel as having

24:46

revealed itself to being an irrational

24:51

actor with wh with whom the AR the Arab regimes may have trouble

25:00

um uh negotiating and allying with there’s nothing

25:06

irrational about what they’re doing ethnic cleansings

25:13

happen uh genocides happen blood

25:20

Revenge happens uh except for the blood Revenge

25:26

aspect which is as I said almost an innate human

25:31

impulse although here compounded by the

25:37

racism um it only becomes

25:42

irrational if there’s no connect between the means and the

25:49

ends but there is a connect the connect is Israel wants to solve the Gaza

25:56

question that’s a perfectly rational

26:01

objective and it’s resolved to solve the

26:07

Gaza question by three means one ethnic

26:13

cleansing the last figure I read which was just a few days ago is about

26:21

200,000 uh Palestinians in Gaza have fled already about a tenth of the pop

26:29

ation so ethnic cleansing to making Gaza

26:37

unlivable as um one senior Israeli put it to give the

26:44

people of Gaza the option of to stay and starve or to

26:50

leave and the third is just mass murder outright

26:56

genocide so there’s nothing irrational either about their

27:03

objective or about the means they have

27:09

chosen to achieve that objective where a problem arises in my opinion but I’ve

27:16

not studied it closely enough to give a definite judgment is here I agree with

27:24

you that I think the Saudis are beginning to have second

27:33

thoughts about aying too much with Israel because although they wanted

27:40

Israel and the us as a counterweight to

27:45

Iran the fact is that the so-called resistance

27:52

Alliance was resistance axis was so

27:57

weakened by the past 15 months that I think the Saudis are

28:06

worried that if they enter into an alliance with Israel their role is going to be as

28:15

slaves there’s no counterweight any longer in the region

28:21

to these Israeli uh Uber mention is no

28:30

counterweight and with the absence of any counterweight the only role that Saudi

28:38

can play in an alliance with Israel will be the role of

28:45

slaves and I don’t think they want that option so

28:53

ironically even though the Saudis wanted the alliance with the US and Israel as a

28:59

counterweight to the axis of resistance I think now they’re a little

29:07

worried that the axis has been weakened too much and that Israel is going to carry

29:15

on in a fashion even more

29:20

arrogant than it has hither to the second question is it’s kind of a psych

29:28

logical question and I have to admit that I don’t have necessarily the

29:35

discernment powers to answer it so let me just say two

29:41

things number one I obviously have studied the matter

29:48

quite closely and I have a pretty clear picture after operation pillar of

29:55

Defense in 2012 it didn’t last long it lasted six days

30:02

if my memory is right and afterwards the people celebrating the streets they were

30:08

euphoric they had held off Israel and the Israeli leadership at the

30:15

time uh looked quite pitiful when

30:21

operation pillar of Defense ended operation protective Edge

30:28

was different now just to give you the

30:33

relative numbers operation castled in

30:39

20089 about 350 children are killed 6,000 homes are

30:44

demolished uh and 600,000 tons of rubble are left

30:50

behind operate that’s castled Operation protective Edge

30:58

it’s about 550 children killed 18,000 homes destroyed or severely damaged and

31:05

about 2.5 million tons of rubble each

31:12

time it was seen by the world as an unspeakable horror uh you’re

31:21

probably too young to even remember operation castled but that caused Hu huge

31:30

demonstrations around the world at what Israel was doing after protective

31:36

Edge the head of the icrc the international Committee of the Red Cross

31:42

his name is Peter Mo and he want to observe what happened

31:48

in Gaza during protective Edge and he stated I’ve never seen destruction like

31:55

this ever before bear in mind this is the guy who goes to

32:00

combat zones as a professional uh as his professional uh his CV as a the head of

32:07

the icrc said I’ve never seen such destruction ever before

32:13

now in the current situation it’s not 18,000 homes that

32:20

were destroyed in Gaza it’s about 300,000

32:28

it’s not 550 children who have been killed

32:34

it’s probably on the order of 15,000 it’s not

32:40

2.5 tons of rubble it’s 50 million tons of

32:48

rubble why do I mention all this because after protective

32:54

Edge when people came out of their shop shelters in Gaza or where they were

33:00

secluding themselves they weren’t shelters obviously where they were secluding themselves and they looked

33:07

around popular support for Gaz for Hamas precipitously

33:14

dropped they hadn’t realized what happened during

33:20

those uh 51 days of protective Edge they

33:25

hadn’t realized it my guess but these are matters of psychology and I don’t

33:33

pretend to any kind of expertise my guess

33:38

is once the dust has settled and they

33:44

see what’s happened I think there may be a

33:53

decline of spirits and support

33:58

for Hamas that’s my guess but I said I

34:04

have to be careful about these things because during the war in

34:10

Vietnam one of the things that everybody wondered how did these people

34:19

maintain their espre Decor in the face of the United States dropping the

34:26

equivalent of two atomic bombs on Vietnam every

34:31

month your’s generation has no

34:37

concept not even a clue of an idea of the

34:44

horror that the US inflicted on Vietnam which defined my whole

34:51

generation but the people managed to persist

34:58

to persevere until they finally inflicted that military

35:05

defeat on Vietnam even that I have to say has to

35:12

be qualified Professor chsky who many of your uh listeners will

35:20

know Professor chamski who was one of the leading figures opposing the war in

35:26

Vietnam his opinion was the Vietnamese lost the

35:32

war because all the kinds of social

35:38

Transformations and aspirations that they had for the people

35:44

it was a was obvious it was called a National Liberation struggle it was also

35:49

supposed to be a socialist struggle there was nothing left there was nothing left of their

35:56

aspirations they you can

36:01

say they won the battles that’s

36:06

true but at the end of the day they lost the

36:13

war so um that’s how I see it you speak and

36:19

we’ve seen the the massive destruction that Israel has has put on Gaza and we we haven’t seen in fact we’ve seen the

36:26

opposite in terms of of Israeli Society being disturbed by their leadership they’ve they’ve supported them they’ve

36:32

Jed them on to a very large extent all polling shows that um increasingly

36:37

there’s there’s discussion in Israel and in Washington about annexing the the

36:43

West Bank um and given the precedent of that Israel’s been able to get away with yes there’s been judgments you know

36:50

almost judgments in in in the icj there’s been protests around the world but given the president that they’ve

36:56

been able to get away with do you see them doing something similar um in in the West Bank or what would be their

37:02

strategy uh to sort of annex the West Bank um give give it that I think both of us understand that Israel is always

37:09

kind of playing this game of we can we let’s try to achieve our goals as soon as possible but also by not upsetting

37:16

the ability for us to achieve that right so given that that equation what do you think how do you think they go about uh

37:23

achieving their goals in the West Bank first of all you recall I said that the Israeli

37:31

leadership the day after October 7th just like incidentally my own

37:39

government’s uh reaction to 911 they shed a few salty

37:46

tears and then all the folks in the situation room as it’s

37:53

called Uh be it Donald Rumsfeld be it Mr Cheney and all the

38:02

others they rubbed their palms of their hands in eager

38:10

anticipation so how can we capitalize on

38:17

911 and the Israelis the same a few salty

38:24

tears some genuine and then some counterfeit

38:30

indignation and then as they said they’re going to solve the Gaza question but then as time

38:37

elapsed they discovered they can solve some other questions they thought maybe we can

38:43

solve the Hezbollah question and maybe the big

38:50

mcgilla we can solve the Iran question so they’re they saw

38:59

progressively more opportunities has time elapsed and now a new

39:08

opportunity the annexation first of all we should be

39:13

clear about technical terminology Israel has

39:19

annexed the West Bank already it’s Annex territory because under international

39:27

law what distinguishes an annexation from an occupation is very simple what

39:33

distinguishes an occupation from annexation is occupations are supposed

39:39

to be temporary if it’s not temporary then it’s not an

39:45

occupation it’s an annexation an illegal annexation Israel has made

39:51

clear its occupation is not temporary it’s not going anywhere so

39:58

has annexed those territories as a factual matter they are annexed to

40:07

Israel and I don’t believe we should continue to use the Expression opt

40:12

occupied Palestinian territories because that uh obfuscates obscures what’s

40:20

really going on it’s an it’s annexed territories they are part of Israel as

40:27

that selum the Israeli information center for the occupied territories about I don’t even know time goes so

40:34

quickly at my age I can’t remember but probably around 7 years ago it put out a

40:40

position paper and the position paper I thought it was very simple not a typical

40:46

legal document with 10,000 footnotes very simple the head of bed

40:52

selum at the time was this guy named hagay elad who was a

40:58

PhD in physics from Harvard University very smart guy and very principled guy

41:04

but you could see he had no patience with the legal mumbo jumbo he said and I advise your

41:12

listeners to go back and look at the paper he said there’s just one state

41:19

from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea there’s just one state

41:25

it’s the state of Israel and its foundation he said is Jewish

41:31

Supremacy its foundation it’s it’s built on the principle of Jewish Supremacy and

41:38

then recently I listened to the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy and I thought he

41:44

correctly said he said Zionism means only one thing

41:50

today don’t go back and look at what Herzel said don’t go back and look at

41:55

what pinsker said don’t go back and look at what aadam said don’t go back and look at what

42:02

jabotinsky said he said it only means one thing today Zionism means Jewish

42:10

Supremacy and Jewish Supremacy from the Jordan to the Mediterranean so the area

42:18

is already annexed de facto the jur I

42:25

believe that they will because they will get the okay from Trump they will

42:32

Annex the West Bank again with the one

42:39

caveat that is Trump does not want to have the Israel Palestine

42:47

albatross around his neck for his current his new term of office he saw

42:55

with Biden can cause a lot of damage so if they can do it in one

43:04

stroke and then it disappears from the headlines

43:09

remember they annexed uh Trump in his first term of office he act he moved the

43:17

US Embassy to Jerusalem he acknowledged the Israeli annexation of Jerusalem

43:23

which occurred in 1969 I means a long time ago uh he uh went along with it

43:31

what happened nothing did Biden did President Biden

43:36

reverse it did he undo it he could have he could certainly

43:43

nullified what Trump’s um recognition of

43:49

Israel’s um control of incorporation of

43:54

East Jerusalem he could have aned it he didn’t and so the

44:01

Israelis might uh I think probably not might

44:06

probably will Annex legally because the facto it’s a done deal it’s a Fed

44:12

complete legally they may do it and Trump will recognize it

44:20

unless there is an intern a formidable not just a reaction you know

44:26

another un General Assembly resolution condemning it another un Security

44:31

Council resolution expressing disappointment which will of course be Ved by the United States uh yes they’ll

44:38

do it I personally I don’t believe it makes a difference it’s already annexed

44:46

territory the international court of justice already

44:51

ruled in July 2024 the icj already ruled that Israel’s

45:00

occupation it didn’t speak to annexation I think incorrectly but that’s a separate issue it already ruled that the

45:09

occupation is illegal under international law and that Israel has to

45:16

expeditiously as soon as possible to leave so if they already

45:22

ruled then occupation is illegal

45:28

then obviously the annexation will be illegal so it doesn’t really change

45:34

anything in my opinion it doesn’t change anything was anything dramatically

45:40

Changed by Trump’s recognition of Israel’s control or

45:48

incorporation of East Jerusalem no didn’t change anything and the democratics went along

45:56

democratic party went along with it Biden could have reversed he didn’t just in terms of on the ground and what

46:03

practically may may happen I mean um I mean and it’s kind of connected to the

46:08

to the question of Gaza as well because we let’s just assume that the fate of comp unfortunately does occur and

46:15

Israelis has oh which fellow compete are you referring to I’m talking about people in in in Gaza actually moving out

46:22

of Gaza right which is the plan and which is there’s lots of pressure and conditions are being created so that that becomes a fat complate but let’s

46:29

there is no there is no grounds whatsoever to believe that Israel has

46:36

changed its goal no absolutely I I completely agree with you on that but but you see it will impact Egypt right

46:43

let’s I mean cuz where will these Palestinians go they would need to S some can’t that but I’ll tell you we

46:49

have to bear in mind that in the Middle East there have been vast population

46:55

transfers in recent years about 2 million syrians in Turkey about 1.5

47:03

million syrians in Lebanon there have been vast population

47:10

movements so I don’t think we can rule out the possibility though of course I

47:16

would be the first to acknowledge that this would

47:21

involve uh problems obviously which is why Jordan and Egypt are averse to that

47:31

solution so I I know that I I I don’t pretend these will be easy matters to

47:37

resolve but I don’t see if Israel made investment for 15

47:45

months to obliterate Gaza

47:51

basically to pulverize to obliterate it can any person seriously believe after

48:00

that that they’re going to allow for gaza’s reconstruction now that would be

48:07

completely irrational to go back to what you spoke to earlier that would be a

48:13

completely irrational act by Israel and I don’t believe it’s going to

48:19

happen let’s let’s just play out what you said in terms of the challenges with

48:24

Egypt and Jordan right um because they I mean for two reasons it would it’s different to to Syria because Syria is

48:32

not I mean people were fleeing they were fleeing a devastating War uh initially

48:37

these these these these refugees were welcomed um and then obviously as they stayed for longer there were tensions

48:43

among the local population and the governments and they wanted them to go back and Syria isn’t Israel it’s not Sy

48:49

while while Syria had a very bad leader um who used to suppress his people it’s not a case of people Palestinians being

48:56

ethnically cleansed by settler colonialists and and this is part of the reason why there’s reluctance to take

49:02

Palestinians in as you know so that will impact Dynamics in Jordan and and in Egypt um if if if some sort of

49:09

accommodation has to be made so just I mean but all of these things creates a

49:15

resistance to Israel’s intentions um uh while while the Egyptians and and and

49:21

zans I think we both agree are not at all sort of well-intentioned actors in this they need to be realistic actors

49:28

and they need to stay in charge of their countries so we’re totally in agreement I I can’t answer the how I know what the

49:36

objective is how they hope to achieve it I can’t answer that I recognize both

49:44

Egypt and uh Jordan wck Will reckon a

49:50

massive influx of Palestinians as being an a a

49:58

um a uh A A disruption of those societies on a

50:07

very significant level uh it will there will be a kind of

50:12

insurrection insurrectionary element added to the

50:18

regimes which are already profoundly unpopular and the second reason

50:23

obviously is they don’t want to end up like Sadat with bullets in their head uh

50:29

so there’s a an element of self-preservation there and a very

50:34

personal level uh or as King Abdullah 1951 met his from Jordan met his fate uh

50:44

with an Assassin’s bullet so yes I think it will be a difficult thing to pull off

50:50

I recognize that but I don’t see the alternative letting human humanitarian

50:57

Aid allow for the Reconstruction Do You Realize by

51:07

20 uh by 2023 uh by October

51:14

2023 Gaza hadn’t yet reconstructed from protective Edge I

51:21

think it was about 70 or 80% reconstructed from protective Edge and

51:27

that was uh about a decade later and it was 2.5 million tons of

51:35

rubble now it’s 50 million tons of rubble I just think I’m not a civil

51:42

engineer I’m just looking at what the UN is saying they’re saying 15 years just to remove the rubble forget about

51:50

reconstruction I don’t see how it’s possible and even if were possible

51:55

Israel did not not spend 15 months obliterating Gaza in order to reconstruct it in terms of taking a look

52:02

at at Israel’s sort of like how does it become

52:08

part of the region and is it able to stay there for a long long period of time is there a fair argument in saying

52:14

that its actions in the last 15 months has made that an impossibility that yes it even if it achieves these goals which

52:21

I I do believe they intend to they will now always be seen um as this position

52:26

in the region that’s extremely violent that’s that you cannot trust um like

52:32

what’s what’s the outcome 60 years from now uh whereas while they were behaving extremely badly and irrationally before

52:39

15 months ago um maybe then there was a chance that Israel you could see it as

52:45

as a country being there maybe a century from now bear in mind that these are very arbitrary timelines and 100 years

52:51

from now the borders of the entire world as we know it may not exist as they are but just the idea of of a Jewish State

52:58

now being in that part of the world is it sustainable like in the long Arc of History I can answer that I don’t know

53:06

about long arcs of History I’m at that point in time where I’m very happy if I remember what

53:12

happened in the morning so I can’t speak to Long arcs of History what I know is

53:19

and here I’m not going to be factious even though I do have trouble remembering what happened in the morning

53:27

uh countries are capable of change we’ve seen it in our lifetime we saw it with first of all the

53:35

two countries who are constantly at war in Europe were Germany and France the

53:41

idea of a war now between Germany and France is Unthinkable the two

53:47

most uh the two

53:53

regimes which represented I think the

53:58

culmination of all the of the underside of Western civilization and not just

54:06

Western Civilization the two most racist and imperialist

54:11

regimes of the inter War period by far or I don’t want to say by

54:17

far let’s just say the two most were Germany and Japan uh the horrors they committed are

54:24

really by any Reckoning I’m not going to whitewash the British the famines they caused in

54:32

places like India and all sorts of other things but I think it’s fair to say that

54:39

Germany and Japan represented the most racist and

54:46

imperialist okay not imperialist that’s unfair the most racist

54:52

regimes on the planet during the inter War period

54:57

uh it’s forgotten the Japanese killed about 25 million Chinese

55:04

during World War II that’s not a small number

55:10

the Germans they killed the estimates now are 27 or so million

55:19

Russians during World War II and I’m leaving aside the uh

55:26

industrial extermination of the Jews but I think it’s fair to

55:36

say that Japan and Germany for all their

55:42

limitations and for all their flaws are among the most

55:49

sane of the industrialized powers now don’t tell me about Germany and Gaza and

55:55

Germany I know all of it I know all of it but I think it’s still fair to say

56:01

that Germany and Japan are at the Pacific end of the political spectrum

56:10

and have been since World War II South

56:15

Africa another miraculous

56:20

transformation of a country and in my own country

56:27

the transformation of the American South the American South was a very ugly

56:35

Place uh so when we carried out our country

56:41

lynchings of African-Americans some people think the lynchings

56:47

were clansmen those were the white supremacists wearing white sheets at

56:54

night carrying tor marches and executing these

57:00

lynchings but that’s not how it happened you know what a lynching was like in the American

57:05

South it was a holiday factories were let out early

57:12

schools were let out early mothers packed their picnic

57:20

baskets they went to the campgrounds the a africanamerican is

57:27

strung up then set on agonizing fire before

57:35

he’s been his last breath and then

57:44

afterwards the uh lynched person his body parts

57:51

were auctioned off somebody would buy the liver somebody would buy the heart

57:57

and then they would take photographs holding the liver holding a heart and

58:02

they would use it as postcards now the American Self has

58:08

undergone a profound transformation so I don’t believe in

58:14

these Notions of original sin that is you have The Mark of Cain

58:22

and you can never change no history shows people those Nations countries

58:27

they change they can change so I don’t want to say Israel can

58:36

never be reformed

58:41

or radically transformed I would say on its current

58:49

trajectory where it’s becoming more and more not just a lunatic

58:58

State a lunatic society which is different you know

59:04

there are some times where one ought to make the distinction between a state and a society during the war in Vietnam at

59:12

least during its peak even though the state was committed

59:19

to carrying out this Horror in Vietnam there was a

59:26

significant descent in society there’s no significant descent

59:31

in Israel none I don’t want to say none at all but

59:37

I think the entirety of the principal def descent can fit in one room of my

59:44

apartment it’s a completely Lunatic Society and there’s a second very

59:53

important point they pay no consequences I was speaking to an

1:00:00

Israeli a very decent guy uh the other day I should say a couple of weeks ago

1:00:07

now and he said to me I don’t want to give his name because I don’t want to cause him trouble he’s an academic in

1:00:14

Israel but he said to me in Israel now life go he’s referring before the ceasefire before the seire he says

1:00:21

Israel just goes on as normal there’s not even any sense of what’s going on in God none whatsoever there are no

1:00:29

consequences for their actions so given the absence of

1:00:38

consequences yes there’s no reason to be optimistic but we it forced to pay a

1:00:46

price and then people start doing the cost

1:00:52

benefit analysis as South Africa did as white folks in the American South

1:01:00

did and if there’s a determined leadership forcing them to do the cost

1:01:08

benefit analysis then yeah I think Israel could change it’s theoretically possible and

1:01:16

when I say theoretically possible I say that the basis of historical

1:01:21

experience Germany changed Japan changed South Africa changed changed my own country

1:01:27

changed my own country has changed so much that nobody can have nobody who hasn’t lived through

1:01:34

it can even conceive the amount of change I’ll just

1:01:40

give you one example which was very striking to me and you’ll forgive the digression but I do believe it’s

1:01:47

relevant so with the miracle of YouTube you get to watch programs from the 1950s

1:01:54

and 1960s and my country so you had what were called game shows and the game shows were quite

1:02:02

interesting because before the show begins and at the end of the show the cameraman pans

1:02:10

the audience you know shows the whole audience and you know what’s the most striking

1:02:15

thing everyone is white it’s not only there was no

1:02:21

non-white people in front of the camera there were no white people even allowed

1:02:28

in the audience to just watch the game

1:02:33

show it’s so striking now when you look at it our our country underwent not just

1:02:41

the political revolution with the Civil Rights Movement it underwent a cultural

1:02:49

revolution so I I I I don’t want to sound P panish

1:02:55

on the other hand even though I’m often accused of being unduly

1:03:03

pessimistic uh I do hold out a degree of

1:03:09

optimism about the capacity of countries and people to

1:03:16

change I just don’t think that’s going to happen if you don’t pay any price you’re speaking about paying a price and

1:03:22

accountability um South Africa did take uh to the icj you’ve also been

1:03:28

investigating uh the judge Julia seat tunde um and some it’s come to for

1:03:33

recently now her plagiarism um but you also believe that there’s evidence that she’s been blackmailed by Israel and

1:03:40

everything else not not black me I think probably bribed okay bribed apologies

1:03:45

for that um I mean please do speak to to what your findings are but just before

1:03:50

that just a Prelude to the answer to that I mean amidst every that’s gone on and what

1:03:57

Israel’s been able to to get away with and the realities that the American Administration and and to be honest with

1:04:04

you most powerful Nations have allowed Israel to get away with does the ruling even matter um does does law and what

1:04:12

the Precedence of law does it actually even matter anymore let’s get to the uh

1:04:19

nitty-gritty of what’s been happening and then we’ll get to doesn’t

1:04:25

even make a difference okay so again we have to go down take a trip

1:04:32

down memory lane all countries practice the Black

1:04:38

Arts they have spies they have

1:04:46

agents they carry on all sorts of

1:04:51

Nefarious activities however

1:04:56

and here I have to be cautious because there are people who are more knowledgeable than myself there are

1:05:03

aspects of what Israel does in its practice of the Black Arts which place it in a my opinion a

1:05:13

separate category and let me give you the some illustrations so you will recall from

1:05:21

our conversation a few moments ago I said that operation

1:05:28

castled even though now in retrospect seems like small

1:05:33

change at the time it evoked a huge International reaction there were

1:05:41

demonstrations in the millions in London yes it was

1:05:47

huge at least 6 or 800,000 but I think it went into a million but I could be

1:05:53

wrong you no memory is not perfect so as a result of operation protective

1:06:01

Edge the United Nations commissioned a report an investigation what’s called a

1:06:07

commission of inquiry and unprecedentedly they chose as the head

1:06:15

of the commission of inquiry a South African Jewish

1:06:23

individual who was active in Jewish causes and a self described his

1:06:33

self-description a Zionist his name was Richard Goldstone and Goldstone went on a

1:06:40

mission with three others um and he produced a devastating

1:06:47

report on what Israel had done in uh Gaza utterly devastating he didn’t just

1:06:54

limit himself of the Gaza he also talked about the West Bank and other things and for Israel this was a

1:07:04

catastrophe because they couldn’t use the usual epithets self-hating Jew

1:07:11

Holocaust denier and all the rest it didn’t stick with Richard Goldstone he

1:07:18

was a highly respected judge and his Jewish

1:07:26

bonafides couldn’t be topped

1:07:31

well he was compared two of all people

1:07:36

the DR mangala of aitz he was just the wildest Things were being said about him

1:07:45

and he weathered the storm he weathered the storm but then his report came out

1:07:53

in 200

1:07:59

2009 I think if my memory is right and then on April 1st

1:08:08

2010 in the United States we have what’s called April Fool’s Day which is the

1:08:13

first day in April and it’s supposedly the day of pranks where people do all

1:08:19

sorts of pranks on April 1st the headline is

1:08:26

Richard Goldstone retracts the report he

1:08:33

retracted and there was no basis for the retraction he made some

1:08:41

arguments but if you go through them there’s no basis and that left really only one

1:08:51

possibility uh John Dugard who is the senior Council in the South African

1:08:58

delegation at the international court of justice like Goldstone a respected

1:09:05

jurist from South Africa and he knew Goldstone and he said when Goldstone

1:09:13

retracted the report he said there’s no factual basis for the

1:09:20

retraction and then he went on to say the SEC secret of why Richard

1:09:28

Goldstone retracted the report will probably go with him to his

1:09:36

grave and the only rational inference was that he was

1:09:43

blackmailed by Israel I personally don’t believe it was

1:09:48

him his daughter lives in Israel she uh re or

1:09:55

she became an Israeli citizen you know if you practice the Black Arts everybody

1:10:03

has a skeleton in their closet maybe this person had an affair

1:10:09

maybe that person had a child out of wedlock you find you can always find

1:10:16

dirt you know

1:10:21

so I’m now going to fast forward I’m just going to you know data points

1:10:29

on the trajectory um you had in the

1:10:36

IC the international criminal court which is different from the icj the

1:10:42

international court of justice you had this character named Fatu Ben suda she was the chief

1:10:51

prosecutor on the icj ICC she was the chief prosecutor in the international

1:10:57

criminal court now I mentioned already earlier in May 31st

1:11:06

2010 there was this humanitarian flotilla on route to Gaza to bring

1:11:13

humanitarian Aid Israel attacked it killed

1:11:19

about killed nine people and the 10th died later 10th was in the coma and then

1:11:25

died later killed 10 people and committed all sorts of outrages against

1:11:31

the other passengers that became

1:11:37

a uh uh a case where Israel did became a

1:11:42

case before the IC the international criminal court now this story you can’t even make

1:11:49

up you can’t make it up the state which brought brought the

1:11:55

case the state which brought the case the comos I’m not going to go into why it was Theos not so

1:12:02

important the comos brings the case and then suda the chief

1:12:11

prosecutor she declares I’m not going to investigate this case there’s no basis

1:12:17

for it the Kos appeal the case they appeal it

1:12:25

um then sue this decision it goes before What’s called the pre-trial chamber of the

1:12:32

IC PTC not so important it goes before let’s just say it goes before the court

1:12:38

the court upholds the appeal okay and

1:12:44

then they say to Ben suda the chief prosecutor you have to reexamine this

1:12:52

case she claims to re-examine it and for a second time says I’m not going to

1:13:01

pursue this case it’s appealed the second time by

1:13:07

the comos it goes before the court the pre-trial

1:13:13

chamber the second time the pre-trial chamber says miss muda you are

1:13:20

committing too many irregularities you are committing just too too many irregularities in this case

1:13:28

you have to revisit it she then a third time she says I am

1:13:37

not going to pursue this case the comos appeals a third

1:13:44

time and you know what the court says this what Ben suda did is so filled

1:13:55

with errors and not only old errors new

1:14:03

errors but the court says we have no legal remedies at this point and they

1:14:09

closed the appeal without granting the comos and an obvious question

1:14:16

arises why did she do this everybody in there was a veritable

1:14:24

Civil War in the international criminal court

1:14:30

because what she was doing was so completely

1:14:35

outrageous why did she do it why she wasn’t a Zionist she wasn’t a

1:14:42

Christian Zionist she wasn’t a Buddhist Zionist she wasn’t a Hindu Zionist so that can’t explain

1:14:50

it and again the ever honorable

1:14:56

the ever honest John Dugard he steps forward and he

1:15:04

says and he’s the only one with the Integrity I won’t use the word guts

1:15:13

because that refers to a physical uh quality having the guts no

1:15:19

it’s a moral quality he’s the only one who has the integrity

1:15:26

to say you know Fatu B suda was the Attorney

1:15:33

General during the gambian dictatorship she was from The Gambia she was accused of being

1:15:42

complicit in torture and what follows she’s being

1:15:50

blackmailed she’s being blackmailed that’s why to the complete outrage and

1:16:00

indignation of the inner sanctums of the ICC I’m not talking about like the comos

1:16:08

I’m talking about divisions within the IC her conduct was so

1:16:14

outrageous but she persisted why why what is the

1:16:22

explanation it cannot be that she was simply incompetent no that

1:16:29

is not a persuasive explanation there’s another character

1:16:35

who used to be he had the highest rank in what was called pre-trial chamber one

1:16:41

just let’s call it the the main Court pre-trial chamber in the uh IC a guy

1:16:49

named Peter KX from Hungary

1:16:58

another crook there’s no other word for it in

1:17:05

July I mean these things you can’t even make up so there was a whole debate

1:17:11

within the international criminal court uh before Kareem

1:17:18

Khan had issued his arrest warrants there was this whole question the IC is

1:17:26

a state based system organization in

1:17:31

other words you can only be a state you can only make a a uh referral or a a

1:17:37

complaint file it’s called a referral you can only file a complaint if you are a

1:17:43

state and the question was whether the

1:17:48

Palestinians constituted a state and were therefore eligible

1:17:55

to file a complaint with the IC okay because you have to be let’s say

1:18:03

somebody in the street mugs you I’m referring to you now yes you can’t go to

1:18:08

the IC and say you know I want to file or I want to refer the case of my mugging because you’re not a state you

1:18:15

have to be a state in order to file a complaint well there’s this guy Peter

1:18:23

KX who he uh the ICC the pre-trial chamber

1:18:30

ruled that it was a state at least for now it’s a state I don’t want to go into

1:18:35

the technicalities but for now it’s a state and that uh the IC has

1:18:40

jurisdiction over the situation in Palestine the situation in Palestine

1:18:46

meant basically the legality of the settlements that Israel is building the crimes committed by Israel during

1:18:53

protective Edge because this was before the Gaza uh the last you know the last 15 months and Peter

1:19:02

Kovac he writes a descent do you know how long the Descent

1:19:07

was I have it sitting on my shelf I could show you 245

1:19:13

Pages now nobody you don’t get paid enough to write

1:19:21

245 page descents why did he do that a descent is usually

1:19:28

six pages 10 pages maybe 15 pages

1:19:35

245 no no there’s something else going on there some of the

1:19:41

footnotes were longer than the Bible yes some the footnotes were longer than the

1:19:49

Bible they were longer than War and Peace and he did that on his own

1:19:56

volition no not believable not credible

1:20:01

not persuasive now we come to the I

1:20:08

CJ the international court of justice as we all know in January

1:20:18

2024 the icj rules or finds that Israel

1:20:24

is plausibly committing genocide about that there seemed to be

1:20:31

no disagreement about what it ruled what it decided it was reported everywhere icj

1:20:38

finds Israel plausibly commits genocide and the head of the icg

1:20:45

iccj was Joan dunu from the United

1:20:50

States in April she goes on the BBC program har

1:20:57

hook and you know what she says oh there’s been a

1:21:03

misunderstanding we never found that Israel was plausibly committing

1:21:09

genocide you didn’t find that everybody got it

1:21:17

wrong legal Specialists legal experts revered authorities the most

1:21:26

distinguished names in the international legal Community they all got it

1:21:33

wrong it was such a Brazen Flatout

1:21:40

lie so audacious that she didn’t even

1:21:49

fear the reaction of all the other members of the Court she had already stepped down her

1:21:56

term of office had ended but she didn’t even fear the reaction as she

1:22:03

pronounced this audacious outrageous

1:22:10

lie and then we have the curious case which is now in the news of Julia

1:22:19

satii from Uganda and she was was on the court the

1:22:27

vice president during the genocide case okay now for the sake of your

1:22:35

listeners just a point of clarity the genocide case did not end on

1:22:41

January 26 with the Court’s finding that Israel is plausibly

1:22:47

committing genocide the genocide continued and South Africa valiantly

1:22:57

valiantly tried to get something practically done not just rulings but

1:23:04

some pract something practically done it went back to the court in February it went back to the court in

1:23:11

March it went back to the court in May

1:23:18

and in January when the original ruling

1:23:24

was handed down Julia seend wrote I think it was an eight page

1:23:32

descent and then in May that was the ruling your listeners

1:23:38

might remember that was the ruling where the court said Israel can’t launch that

1:23:43

military offensive in Rafa she wrote a 28 page

1:23:49

descent again very unusual this investment of energy in time the scents

1:23:55

just don’t read like that they’re two or three pages five pages you

1:24:01

know and I have studied closely the whole documentary record to

1:24:09

the point I will frankly admit because most people will agree with this point by me to the point of

1:24:16

insanity there’ll be there’ll be agreement on by everybody on that particular

1:24:22

Point everyone listening friend and foe alike to the point of

1:24:28

insanity and it was clear that what Julia seend was writing

1:24:35

in her desense was completely crazy a simple example a simple

1:24:42

example South Africa was very

1:24:47

careful in its presentation what’s called application

1:24:54

to the court and then the application was January but then after

1:25:00

January the sources had cited South Africa adopted a very smart

1:25:06

strategy I guess it was natural to them but for me it was very clever remember

1:25:12

the icj is the highest judicial Bo body of the United Nations it’s the legal arm

1:25:18

of the United Nations the icj the international court of justice so what did southa Africa

1:25:25

do it its first um its first application was 84 pages

1:25:33

single spaced and all it did it had

1:25:39

590 footnotes yes and each footnote had multiple

1:25:45

references and they were very careful they only cited humanitarian organizations and un

1:25:53

organizations for their evidence for their proof that a genocide was going on in Gaza so

1:25:59

they’ll site the World Health Organization they’ll site care they’ll

1:26:05

site save the children they’ll site UNICEF they’ll site UNESCO these are in

1:26:14

general unimpeachable sources but they’re much more

1:26:22

unimpeachable because this is the legal arm of the UN and South Africa is

1:26:28

only citing un sources so to say that the sources are

1:26:36

false is an effect to discredit the whole un organization and that was in my opinion

1:26:43

was a quite very clever strategy because the judges a lot of them I don’t think

1:26:50

they wanted to vote that Israel’s plausibly committing genocide but they

1:26:56

were in a very uncomfortable position if they didn’t if they didn’t vote along

1:27:01

their effect saying UNESCO UNICEF save the children care World Health

1:27:07

Organization they’re all liars that’s not a smart move it’s not a credible

1:27:13

move you know so what do seend

1:27:19

do her only response is to site Israeli state

1:27:26

claims the Israelis claim this the Israelis claim

1:27:31

that that’s not a response first of all you have to show

1:27:39

why the UN and sources are wrong you can’t site

1:27:44

Netanyahu against who the World Health

1:27:49

Organization she doesn’t even make a pretend

1:27:56

of justifying her dissents and then there was another

1:28:01

aspect I can’t go into everything the chapter I wrote on her in my forthcoming book the

1:28:08

chapter is 59 pages but then there’s another

1:28:15

aspect when I read judge seend her

1:28:20

second major descent in May uh no no no uh when I read her

1:28:30

desent when the icj declared Israel’s

1:28:36

occupation illegal that descent was in July

1:28:44

2024 that I told you that one ran to 28 Pages no no no no that one one in May

1:28:49

was 28 Pages excuse me you said earlier the one in May was 28 Pages yeah I I was

1:28:56

mistaken the one in the legal consequence it’s called the legal consequences of Israel’s policies and uh

1:29:03

practices in the acob teritories that one ran to 28 pages okay and when I read

1:29:10

it it was such a bizarre descent I said no no no no no no she couldn’t have

1:29:16

written this she couldn’t have even known these facts they’re so

1:29:22

obscure she couldn’t have done that and so I assumed she plagiarized from

1:29:28

somewhere or somebody plagiarized for her and I decided I went on my Twitter

1:29:35

account which for me humble person from Brooklyn New York no connections nobody

1:29:42

likes me a parah uh and I know nothing about web technology

1:29:47

00000000 Z minus one nothing so I posted on my Twitter account I said would

1:29:55

anyone care to volunteer to help me track down some plagiarism I believe there’s plagiarism but I’m not

1:30:02

certain and about 20 people submitted contributions I gave them the

1:30:09

seend Descent and I said look it over and they were of uneven quality some

1:30:16

they found two or three things some people found 10 and 12 instances of

1:30:22

descent but then this fellow named Majid Abu

1:30:29

Amir he weighs in it turns out he’s a young fellow from Gaza of all

1:30:37

places and he currently resides in Doha

1:30:44

okay and he submits 35 double

1:30:52

Columns of plagiarism 35 Pages double columns jux opposing

1:31:01

what she says with the plagiarized material okay and he he’s very

1:31:09

precise uh he finds

1:31:15

32.2% of her descent was

1:31:20

plagiarized almost entirely from these hack

1:31:26

Israeli sources these apologists and I think that’s a

1:31:34

euphemism for Israel so a third I know I’m not allowed to say

1:31:41

a third I have to say almost a third I have to be precise

1:31:47

32.2% has been plagiarized um and I want I’m happy

1:31:54

actually to give him Credit First of all because of the brilliant work that he

1:32:01

did outshining a lot of people in the west who had First

1:32:07

Rate G uh abilities capacities on the web he so to speak beat them out but

1:32:16

also on the note of paos it tells you something about all

1:32:22

the human talent that was squandered and

1:32:28

destroyed by Israel in Gaza I’ve met so many really

1:32:35

impressive people from Gaza when I was at the encampment in

1:32:41

MIT last year which is the most respected uh Science and Engineering

1:32:50

University in our country and probably still in the world am in Caltech

1:32:55

California Institute of Technology and I met three young Gins who were students

1:33:02

there and then when I was well I can go through it but you see so much talent so

1:33:09

much ability so much goodness so much decency so I’m very happy to

1:33:17

acknowledge the brilliant work that he did and my

1:33:22

conclusion I know people say I am prone to

1:33:31

exaggeration I am prone to hyperbole which is the fancy word for

1:33:37

exaggeration but the fact of the matter is I began my so to speak professional

1:33:46

career which was not a professional career CU I never got a job in Academia

1:33:51

I was you are looking at a person who was unemployed his whole

1:33:58

life I never had a job I would do what’s called in the United States adjuncting

1:34:05

which means you get a contract for a semester and maybe you’ll get a contract

1:34:10

the next semester and maybe you won’t uh and a semester is only 14 weeks

1:34:19

so even if I got a contract for two semesters that’s just 28

1:34:25

weeks and frequently I didn’t get the second semester contract I never had a

1:34:32

job but I had as it were a career or I prefer to call it a

1:34:40

calling a commitment and in the course of my life

1:34:46

at a young age when I was still a graduate student there was this book that came out called from time

1:34:52

immemorial by this person named Joan Peters and it was a national sensation

1:35:00

it was about the Israel Palestine conflict I won’t go into the

1:35:05

details and this young graduate student outwitted and

1:35:13

outsmarted all the experts who said this book would transform our understanding

1:35:22

of the Israel pales sign conflict in fact hold

1:35:29

on I keep it here so you have blurbs that say by Leading authorities

1:35:37

leading authorities this book is a historical event in

1:35:42

itself a discovery that has laay in the dark all along until the revelations by

1:35:50

the author and as a Young Man I went through it very

1:35:56

carefully and I conclude it was a hoax it was a fraud

1:36:03

and I was Vindicated and I can name

1:36:08

many points along my life’s journey there was the a case of Daniel

1:36:16

gold hogen who had written a book in the Nazi Holocaust which I considered complete I believe was complete nonsense

1:36:23

and I believe I also demonstrated it was complete nonsense I wrote a book on the subject with

1:36:29

somebody else I’ll take it off the shelf a nation on

1:36:34

trial and um with Ruth batina burn my

1:36:40

co-author uh and uh it was named one of the top books of the Year by the New

1:36:46

York Times book review and I had a succession of I

1:36:51

think uh Revelations which were

1:36:57

subsequently confirmed affirmed and confirmed by

1:37:04

the uh General academic public and now

1:37:10

it’s my opinion that there is an

1:37:16

ugly sorted squalid pattern

1:37:23

that you could see with Richard Goldstone you could see with Fatu B

1:37:30

suda you can see with Joan dunu and now you can see with judge

1:37:40

satii who when uh YF

1:37:46

Salam was the president of the icj and now he was elevated

1:37:53

to Hau office in Lebanon and he was replaced as the

1:38:00

president of the icj by Julia sabuti so she is currently the president

1:38:09

and I believe she is inthrall to the state of

1:38:16

Israel the chapter is entitled uh free agent or foreign

1:38:25

agent I believe it’s the letter she’s a foreign agent as I said I devoted 59

1:38:35

pages single space to analyzing her

1:38:40

descents and then I appended the 35 Pages by Majid Abu

1:38:48

Amir documenting the massive plagiarism

1:38:54

I’ll just say one last thing on this subject which is plagiarism is what you can call a

1:39:01

form of professional misconduct uh it’s the cardinal sin in

1:39:10

Academia to plagiarize uh but I would recognizing

1:39:17

the significance of that I I believe that the far

1:39:25

greater uh issue is not the professional one

1:39:32

professional misconduct she didn’t properly credit her

1:39:37

sources the the the the real issue is the political

1:39:44

one the presidency of the icj which

1:39:51

still has to hear that genocide case cuz right now they’ve

1:39:58

not heard it what they heard was the the requests for what are called provisional

1:40:04

measures the request for provisional measures means very

1:40:09

simply there may be a genocide going on in Gaza and unless the court does

1:40:15

something it’ll be too late by the time the court rules on whether it’s genocide

1:40:22

so we’re asking asking for provisional measures so that the people will still be around when the court hears the

1:40:31

case uh it’s the equivalent in domestic law of asking a court for a uh uh an

1:40:40

order of restraint namely you haven’t yet been proven guilty but we’re ask you have to we’re

1:40:49

issuing an order of restraint just in case it’s too late

1:40:54

by the time the case goes to court or so it’s called a restraining

1:41:00

order um and uh I believe in the basis of the

1:41:07

evidence that the icj

1:41:12

like the chief prosecutor of the IC Fatu B suda that they have been

1:41:21

captured by a foreign government the state of Israel so just coming back to

1:41:27

the question does international law matter um given what Israel has done

1:41:33

obviously if there’s no enforcement mechanism uh and uh South

1:41:40

Africa it did submit I’m actually reading it now I’ll just show it to

1:41:47

you hold it up it did submit in May of

1:41:53

2024 of a luminous document the essence of the document

1:41:59

was that the icj said Israel is plausibly

1:42:07

committing genocide we are now presenting you this

1:42:12

document to show that they have not

1:42:17

relented even though the icj ordered them to allow in humanitarian Aid even

1:42:25

though the icj ordered them not to launch the

1:42:30

offensive in Rafa the Israelis went ahead and did it

1:42:38

anyway and so they submitted this document to the security

1:42:43

Council and requested the security Council to act on the findings of the

1:42:51

international court of justice this and obviously as you know it didn’t

1:42:57

happen because the US blocks

1:43:03

it however even though the enforcement mechanism for the findings of the

1:43:11

icj are is uh the enforcement mechanism is

1:43:19

inoperative because of the US vdo not withstanding

1:43:25

that these are important weapons in the battle for public

1:43:31

opinion and that’s our strongest weapon our strongest weapon we don’t have the

1:43:37

money we don’t have the organization we don’t have the power the

1:43:44

raw power but we have the

1:43:50

possibility of reaching people of trying to organize into

1:43:56

a uh a uh compact Force public

1:44:03

opinion and Israel and Israelis worry about that that’s why they blackmailed

1:44:11

Richard Goldstone that’s why they

1:44:17

blackmailed Fatu B suda that’s why Peter

1:44:23

Kovac wrote a 245 you can’t imagine how insane this is

1:44:32

245 page descent so they are concerned they don’t

1:44:39

like it they don’t like it even though it’s true they don’t have the enforce they

1:44:47

have the they have disabled the enforcement mechanism that’s true they have in uh they have disabled it that’s

1:44:57

correct but public opinion yes they do worry about it I was at Yale about a

1:45:03

month ago I was invited by the Yale political union to speak now the mere

1:45:09

fact that they invited me is already so over the top you know that they would invite me to come

1:45:16

speak and you know what the topic was what the resolution was Israel’s

1:45:22

committing genocide in Gaza yes that was the resolu resolved

1:45:28

Israel’s committing genocide in Gaza I gave my the way the format at Yale is

1:45:34

there’s a keynote speaker who gives a presentation and then students on both

1:45:40

sides argue the proposition three students in favor the proposition Israel’s committing genocide three

1:45:46

students against okay well I carried the day they did the vote

1:45:53

at the end and it was a 2/3 in support of me and oneir

1:46:01

opposed uh and they’re not happy about that the Israelis is it the equivalent

1:46:07

of an atomic bomb no but does it trouble them yes it

1:46:13

troubles them that they are becoming uh and it may endure

1:46:23

they’re becoming a pariah State you know they’re assuming the status that South

1:46:29

Africa did for my generation and the status

1:46:36

was one of a visceral not just a mental a

1:46:43

visceral reaction of uh

1:46:49

disdain whenever you heard some somebody was from South Africa you didn’t you

1:46:56

know you could be a young kid young kid I mean serious like you know you just knew it was in the air after a certain

1:47:04

point it permeated the atmosphere you just knew if somebody said they were from

1:47:10

South Africa there’s something wrong there’s something wrong um there was two famous gers the

1:47:18

most famous goer of my generation was a fellow named Arn Arnold Palmer

1:47:24

and his partner was a guy named Gary Player and Gary Player was from South

1:47:30

Africa and whenever they would say that you knew there was something wrong

1:47:36

there and Israel is assuming that status it’s assuming that status I feel it in

1:47:44

myself you know I met somebody the other day I said so where are you from he said Israel I already immediately got this

1:47:51

sick feeling and side me you know like no I don’t like genocidal

1:47:57

States nice knowing you you know so I do think you know one has to be realistic

1:48:04

about these things you will not have any knowledge of the fact because it’s such

1:48:10

an obscure chapter now um South Africa controlled Namibia

1:48:16

what was called back then Southwest Africa I’m I’m South African so I do know about this oh okay now believe it

1:48:23

or not the case of South Africa’s control of

1:48:28

Namibia it came before the international court of justice seven

1:48:34

times seven times between 1950 and

1:48:41

1971 okay finally South Africa was ordered to

1:48:47

leave Namibia finally by 1971 it was ordered

1:48:53

to leave Namibia now you can say

1:48:59

skeptically what difference did it make but I kind of agree with John dugar who

1:49:05

wrote The Definitive book on that

1:49:10

icj uh ordeal Journey those

1:49:16

seven cases he said no it didn’t end partite but he said it played a role

1:49:23

you know was one Forum we all operate in different forums at some points we all get

1:49:31

together Mass demonstrations where all of us from the

1:49:36

doctors lawyers and professors to the people who make our society

1:49:44

run on a daily basis we all get together as a show of force our of our Collective power our

1:49:51

compact power but most of the time each of us is doing his or her own thing in

1:49:57

his or her own realm doctors are Physicians are doing one thing they journey to Gaza they give testimony on

1:50:05

what they saw and experienced in Gaza uh professors do another thing you

1:50:13

know one of the deeply moving things about the

1:50:18

encampments was how professors they didn’t know what to

1:50:23

do to show solidarity so they were just sending food and more food and more food they

1:50:31

did their thing you know we all do our thing uh in our own separate

1:50:38

capacities in our own distinct competences and I believe that this is

1:50:45

one realm one uh

1:50:50

area the law where it makes a contribution but I will

1:50:56

never pretend to the fact that it’s to be all an end all you’ve spoken a lot uh

1:51:02

mean there’s two things I want to touch on now the one was you spoke about I forget his name but the Palestinian

1:51:08

researcher in Doha from Raza Majid Abu Amir Majid Abu Amir um and you speak

1:51:13

about him and the potential uh that that that Israel has destroyed in Gaza um I

1:51:19

mean just briefly because obviously we you you I think you know that you you do like to speak and you do speak a lot of

1:51:26

sense so that’s good but um we are I mean the time is is going but just briefly try to give us a sense of

1:51:33

because I mean there is I think a lot of our viewers would know that because a lot of our viewers obviously are we we

1:51:39

cover Palestine in extensively and so um a lot of them would be aware but just give us a sense of how

1:51:47

Israel sort of changed played the victim card and and and has worked so hard hard

1:51:53

to kind of push the Palestinians into this point where October 7th happened

1:51:59

because obviously it’s been it’s been a long journey for Palestinians and Palestinian resistance and I think there’s often an impression that you

1:52:05

know the the resistance is just a bit mindless and I’m sure the resistance is flawed because they operate in a very

1:52:11

difficult environment but um just just kind of like you know speak to

1:52:17

that well you put a severe limitation on the you

1:52:24

okay be be be a bit brief not too brief that’s that’s like a death sentence

1:52:30

um where does one begin I think the best place to begin people can disagree

1:52:36

obviously I think the best place to begin is 1948 and the for 1948 represents the

1:52:43

climax of a project that began at the end of the 19th century the climax is

1:52:49

the formation of the state of Israel in the course of Israel’s formation about 90% of the population of

1:52:58

what became Israel is expelled it’s about the rough estimates or about

1:53:04

750,000 Palestinians are expelled of those

1:53:09

750,000 approximately 270,000 300,000 end up in

1:53:16

Gaza and so that’s the first fact that we have to always bear in mind the Gaza

1:53:22

overwhelmingly a refugee population refugees and their

1:53:27

descendants who under international law The Descendants are also classified as

1:53:34

refugees Gaza is also overwhelmingly a child population it’s about 48%

1:53:42

children now again I’m often accused I believe incorrectly of being extreme in

1:53:51

my language or of being exaggerate exaggerating in my

1:53:58

language so I will refer to what others have said one of the Striking things

1:54:04

when you go back to the beginning of the creation of Gaza as we know it is that

1:54:12

one outside Observer after another one after another they routinely refer to

1:54:19

Gaza as a concentration camp now that’s not

1:54:24

me and it’s not as if memories of World War II have been uh obscured we’re talking

1:54:34

about right after 1948 so you talk about the chief a un representative in Gaza his

1:54:42

name is Elm Burns and he writes a memoir and he says well there’s not

1:54:50

starvation that’s in the streets You Don’t See starv in the streets but he said Gaza is a huge concentration camp

1:54:57

on the sand that’s what it is by the way

1:55:03

Israelis in all sectors of Israeli life

1:55:09

refer to Gaza under Egyptian Administration we’re talking about

1:55:15

between 1950 and 1967 when it’s under Egyptian

1:55:20

Administration Burns called of the Concentration Camp the Israelis keep referring to it as a

1:55:28

concentration camp then in 1967 in

1:55:34

July uh the father of Al Gore alore people remember as the American who ran

1:55:41

for president in 2000 his father was also a senator he

1:55:47

goes to Gaza he comes back reports now it’s under Israeli rules after 67 he

1:55:55

comes back he reports to Congress and he refers to Gaza as a concentration

1:56:03

camp then in 2002 a senior Israeli

1:56:10

sociologist baru kimmerling he writes a book on the uh on

1:56:18

the uh the occupation when Chiron was the Prime Minister he describes gaza’s

1:56:26

quote the biggest concentration camp ever in

1:56:31

2004 the then head of the National Security Council G island who’s still

1:56:38

around he’s playing a a most uh nefarious role the past 15 months

1:56:47

during the Israeli oper uh genocide in Gaza how did he describe Gaza quote the

1:56:54

head of the Israeli National Security Council describes as quote a huge

1:57:00

concentration camp that was Gaza

1:57:05

now in 2006 Hamas wins the Parliamentary

1:57:10

elections the Parliamentary elections incidentally which President Bush

1:57:15

demanded it was the era of what was called democracy promotion after the uh

1:57:21

Israeli us attack on Iraq and they uh they impose the uh uh

1:57:31

they demand elections Hamas doesn’t want to participate because it says this is part

1:57:36

of the Oslo process what began in 1993 we won have anything to do with AO

1:57:41

process we don’t have anything to do with these elections it’s all a facade for Israeli control well they’re finally

1:57:50

persuaded to part participate in the elections and lo and elections according

1:57:56

to Jimmy Carter the American president who just passed away he described the

1:58:01

elections as completely honest and fair and lo and behold Hamas

1:58:07

wins immediately as it wins elections which the US government

1:58:13

demanded immediately as a Hamas wins Israel poses this brutal economic

1:58:19

blockade on Gaza and and then Israel is followed by uh the United States and the

1:58:27

EU European union and now at this point Hamas

1:58:35

engages because it’s an elected government and it was elected on the hopes it ran on what was

1:58:44

called a reform platform and it had to deliver on its

1:58:49

platform otherwise it’s going to be voted out and so the first order of business has to be

1:58:57

to end this blockade which everybody agrees is destroying Gaza and it tried

1:59:04

many things first of all it tried diplomacy it was sending

1:59:10

signals which were acknowledged by US government agencies it was sending signals that was

1:59:17

pre prep prepared to end to terminate the conflict on the basis of international law namely

1:59:25

two states along the June 1967 border now I will admit no point

1:59:33

in I have a CREDO in life never quarrel with facts I’m not going to dispute there

1:59:39

were gray areas in hamas’s response Hamas was formerly committed to

1:59:48

the exercise of the full right of Return of the refug IES now under international

1:59:54

law they have a very strong case they have a very strong case under international law that refugees have a

2:00:01

right of return but as a practical matter I don’t believe it’s realistic I don’t want to

2:00:07

go into the get into this I’m just saying I will acknowledge

2:00:14

that uh the Hamas response was not perfect but it certainly was

2:00:20

serious and they went had a f real dilemma you have to remember 80 70% of

2:00:26

gaza’s refugees so they couldn’t very easily give up that right of

2:00:32

return that’s their constituency uh but all of their

2:00:39

attempts to resolve the conflict diplomatically were ignored they were

2:00:45

simply ignored then they tried international law here is a little known fact

2:00:53

as I mentioned in earlier there were these commissions of inquiry after each

2:00:59

of Israel’s uh Horrors in Gaza now the

2:01:05

commissions of inquiry were not soft on Hamas not at all they accused Hamas of

2:01:12

war crimes of serious war crimes

2:01:18

okay Hamas cooperated with the commission of inquiry it

2:01:25

knew it knew that the final reports of these

2:01:32

commissions of inquiry would uh come to a very harsh judgment

2:01:39

on Hamas indeed accusing them of war crimes

2:01:45

that didn’t deter them because they believed that maybe even as they’re

2:01:53

accused of war crimes they would get some justice

2:01:58

because Israel also would be held to account which is what Richard Goldstone

2:02:03

did and the others did what came of what what came of it all these

2:02:11

reports and they were put in the desk drawer to

2:02:17

collect dust they tried remember Israel refused to cooperate with any of the commissions

2:02:24

of inquiry refused up until today you know the na’vi P Commission of inquiry

2:02:29

they say no they’re not going to cooperate Richard Goldstone they say no we’re not going to cooperate Mary mcgaan

2:02:36

Davis after operation protective Edge no we won’t cooperate Hamas

2:02:42

cooperated it cooperated that’s a fact and what did they get out of the

2:02:49

cooperation they got report s which were never acted on they just collected

2:02:56

dust and then they tried nonviolent civil resistance in March 2018 the great March

2:03:05

of return they tried nonviolent civil resistance what came of that we know

2:03:11

exactly what came of it there was a 250 page Commission of inquiry

2:03:16

report and you know the inquiry found it quote Israel saying

2:03:22

that they lined up their best snipers along the perimeter fence with

2:03:28

Gaza the Israelis said every bullet

2:03:34

fired hit its Mark that’s what they said every bullet fired by these top snipers

2:03:43

hit their Mark who did they target the UN 250 page single space

2:03:50

report said they targeted children

2:03:55

journalists Medics disabled people double

2:04:01

amputees who were 100 to 300 M away from

2:04:06

the perimeter fence and engaging in strictly civilian

2:04:12

activities when they didn’t kill the nonviolent

2:04:19

demonstrators they targeted their kneecap and below in order to

2:04:27

inflict lifechanging injuries so the documentary record shows

2:04:35

they tried diplomacy they tried law they tried

2:04:41

nonviolence so resistance and on the night of October

2:04:47

6th it looked Gaza had vanished from the

2:04:54

news I know because I abandoned

2:05:01

Gaza I gave up after chronicling it in

2:05:06

minute detail for more than a

2:05:11

decade I reached the conclusion this is pointless it’s worthless it’s

2:05:17

hopeless time to move on I wasn’t proud

2:05:24

of that decision there was an element of shame in that decision but I made

2:05:33

it and it looked as if the Abraham Accords would extend to Saudi

2:05:41

Arabia and the people of Gaza would be

2:05:47

left to die in that concentration

2:05:52

Camp the younger men who burst the gates of

2:05:58

Gaza on October 7th they were all around

2:06:04

20 they were born into they languished

2:06:09

in and they died they were destined they were

2:06:15

fated to die in that concentration camp

2:06:21

with the only break in the

2:06:26

monotony of getting up each morning and pacing the perimeter of Gaza

2:06:33

because 60% of them were unemployed the young men 60% were unemployed the only

2:06:41

break in the monotony of their

2:06:47

existence was the periodic Hightech killing sprees Israel’s mowings of the

2:06:55

lawn in Gaza and they were born into they languished

2:07:04

in and as of October 6th they had been

2:07:10

abandoned by the whole of humanity

2:07:15

without exception and

2:07:21

they were destined to die there also want to criticize them in my

2:07:29

opinion they have to first show me what option did they have that they

2:07:38

didn’t exploit just just moving on uh to a bit about yourself and I know you don’t want to speak too much about

2:07:44

yourself but it’s just it’s it’s it’s it is to inform uh the audience just about

2:07:49

what motivates you and and what kind of drives you why did you I mean at what point in your life did you decide that

2:07:55

you’re going to going to study what you have studied which to a large extent is the conflict what moments in your life

2:08:01

LED you there I came from my parents past to the Nazi Holocaust it was

2:08:07

omnipresent in my home growing up it was omnipresent even

2:08:12

though there wasn’t all that much talk about it there are pictures of my mother’s

2:08:19

family hanging on the wall but I never made a

2:08:25

connection or what you might call the normal connection between those pictures

2:08:31

and myself so I would never refer to the picture of my mother’s mother I would

2:08:39

never refer to it as my grandmother I would say my mother’s

2:08:44

mother and I would never refer to the two sisters and her brother the picture

2:08:50

that hung on the wall I never refer to them as my uh aunts and aunts and uncle uh they

2:09:00

were just my mother’s two sisters and brother um they never to this day my

2:09:07

parents passed 30 years ago this year in 1995 to this day I have no idea

2:09:16

whatsoever what happened to my parents’ family none it was what you

2:09:22

was uh though that was an area that was roped off you can talk about Hitler you

2:09:30

could talk about the Nazis you can talk about this you can talk about that but you couldn’t talk about the family

2:09:36

impossible nobody I would never dare another than my brothers to ask them actually in my

2:09:45

own case I was afraid I was afraid because I didn’t

2:09:50

believe I was emotionally capable of

2:09:56

handling the outpouring of grief I could

2:10:02

not I was not physically capable of hearing what

2:10:09

happened so we never talked about it we did talk a lot about

2:10:15

politics it was a very political home and it was an eccentric political home

2:10:21

my parents remained to their last breath loyal and faithful to comrade Stalin

2:10:27

because it was the Russian Red Army to defeat the Nazis and that’s all they cared about nothing else

2:10:35

mattered uh so it was a political home I

2:10:41

was like my entire generation I was involved in the anti-war movement and

2:10:48

also to the extent that I was able to support the rights of

2:10:55

African-Americans I only came to Israel Palestine quite late in my life

2:11:01

1982 so I’m already 29 years old it was when Israel invaded Lebanon in June

2:11:09

1982 I got involved for reasons which are not worth going into I ended up

2:11:16

writing my doctoral dissertation on the theory of Zionism so now had a political

2:11:22

investment I had a professional investment was my doctoral

2:11:28

dissertation and then there was always the personal investment because my parents

2:11:33

were uh authentic survivors of a Nazi holocost and obviously that was a

2:11:39

reference in Israeli propaganda so my personal family

2:11:46

history uh played a part in my

2:11:51

commitment so there was a political a personal and a

2:11:56

professional all PS I didn’t realize that the personal the professional and the political commitment and um the

2:12:04

bottom line is I’m not a quitter the conflict didn’t end and so

2:12:10

long as the conflict didn’t end I wasn’t prepared to give up

2:12:17

until uh as I said 20 20 when I walked

2:12:23

away and then 3 years later I was back at it I had so put it out of my

2:12:31

mind that I had to start I was going to be debating fairly early on in the

2:12:37

Israeli genocide I was going to be on a debate that included Benny moris the

2:12:42

Israeli historian and he’s obviously very knowledgeable so I had to sit down and

2:12:48

start rereading books to freshen my refresh my memory on

2:12:57

Gaza uh so and uh so I’m back at it just

2:13:02

on again on a personal level how is witnessing this genocides for the last 15 months um how is how has it changed

2:13:10

you I haven’t witnessed it I will be honest with you I don’t I don’t watch

2:13:16

any images from Gaza I don’t watch any videos from Gaza I get obviously in my

2:13:22

email uh each morning uh tons of videos I should watch and images I

2:13:31

should look at I never do I don’t uh I

2:13:38

just don’t do it I bury myself in the sand I always thought that

2:13:46

God’s wisest creation was the ostrich very head in the sand ignore

2:13:52

what’s going on in front of you behind you and each side of you and just do

2:13:58

your work and I work myself to the point of

2:14:06

literally physical exhaustion because I believe I am I can

2:14:12

perform a useful service now and I should and many people have come to

2:14:18

count on me I have received a large amount of email each day from people

2:14:24

thanking me and also in particular not just for my

2:14:31

resoluteness but also for the information I provide and I I am

2:14:38

uniquely uh competent in this matter

2:14:44

because I spent a good 15 years of my life just going through all of these

2:14:51

reports and all of this documentation uh it sits on my

2:14:56

bookshelves now uh you can see my entire

2:15:01

life really is on the bookshelves I didn’t do much else and so it’s not a I

2:15:08

don’t believe it’s conceited to say there’s one economic history of Gaza uh

2:15:16

book form that’s Sarah Roy from Harvard her book The development of Gaza and

2:15:23

there’s only one political history of Gaza and that’s my own Gaza in inquest

2:15:28

into its modom so I found myself in a unusual

2:15:34

situation of a conflict which has been on the front pages for 15

2:15:39

months uh and where I had more than what you would call the average amount of

2:15:45

knowledge given your vast study uh into the Palestinian and Israeli conflict War

2:15:52

genocide ethnic cleansing whatever we want to call it do you think this is the lowest point just analytically speaking

2:16:00

that the Palestinian cause has been at um given what you’ve said previously in this interview there’s the physical

2:16:07

facts and there are the political facts as I said during the Vietnam war the United

2:16:16

States was dropping at its peak the equivalent of two atomic bombs on the

2:16:21

Vietnam they totally destroyed the environment of

2:16:27

Vietnam by its promiscuous use of Agent

2:16:32

Orange which contaminated the soil in Gaza excuse me in

2:16:39

Vietnam however the Vietnamese Communist

2:16:46

party was very tough I once as a high ranking member of

2:16:53

the party how did you survive this

2:17:00

Relentless really it begins in 1945 when the French attempt to reconquer Vietnam

2:17:06

then the United States enters the picture and extends to

2:17:11

1970 75 when the US finally withdraws and he said it was the

2:17:19

Communist Party it was so committed so you might

2:17:27

say manal in its commitment to

2:17:33

win so when you ask me the question of the lowest

2:17:38

point I think materially this is the lowest

2:17:47

point obviously 1948 was a

2:17:52

catastrophe but I don’t believe in terms of numbers killed remotely

2:17:59

approaches what’s happened the past 15 months but

2:18:05

politically I would say that the Palestinian movement

2:18:13

was destroyed long

2:18:18

before when the ostensible leadership switched

2:18:25

sides and became collaborators with the Israelis which was the essence of the oo

2:18:35

Accord and there was no longer that

2:18:41

compact fanatical maniacal monom

2:18:46

manal commitment to the cause now it was just a gang of

2:18:53

crooks who were capitalizing on their status as

2:19:00

collaborators with Israel there is no we have to be honest about it there’s no

2:19:06

resistance in the West Bank what happened in Gaza there was not now there

2:19:11

is reason for that uh it’s not just the corrupt

2:19:19

leadership but but there is an absence of vision namely if you’re going to give

2:19:27

your life up you have to give it for a cause otherwise you’re not going to give up your life your life is most sacred

2:19:33

thing to you and people they go and they demonstrate they’re not sure what

2:19:39

they’re demonstrating for there’s no leadership and they’re not willing to

2:19:45

die without even the hope of achieving something

2:19:51

because they’re not they don’t know what they’re going to what they’re trying to achieve there’s no leadership but the fact of the matter

2:19:59

is the Palestinian People Israel achieved one of its goals one of its

2:20:04

goals was to divide Gaza from the West Bank not just physically but as a

2:20:11

consequence of physically to the divided in terms of its emotional National

2:20:18

allegiances and Gaza became a separate entity the

2:20:24

people of the West Bank went on with their lives as if a genocide was not

2:20:30

happening in Gaza by the way that happened during World War II you know

2:20:35

the there’s been a quite a lot not a lot but there’s been significant literature about how Jews in the yesu which was

2:20:42

what was y IV it’s the pre Jewish the pre-state Jewish community in Palestine

2:20:50

pre-state pre 1948 uh they went on his life as usual during the Nazi extermination they did

2:20:58

nothing they went on as usual so it’s not it’s not unusual that that

2:21:04

happens uh American Jews did barely anything for Jews in in Nazi occupied

2:21:11

Europe barely anything a demonstration here a demonstration there you can count them the fingers of one hand um but uh

2:21:22

politically you have to remember that you take the first in in that began in

2:21:29

December 7th 1987 if you take the first in t it starts in jabalia Camp in

2:21:37

Gaza and then within the week it spreads to the West Bank there was still a

2:21:43

cohesion there was still a cohesion if it starts here in the blink of an eye

2:21:49

it’s going to spread there that doesn’t exist anymore if you go back and look during the Great March of

2:21:56

return in 2018 there was no support for it in West Bank

2:22:02

none none so politically I think the disaster occurred much earlier Dr noral

2:22:09

finstein thank you so much for your time there’s a lot more that I would like to speak to you about but I think this has been a very long session

2:22:17

um well it’s good that you agree on that uh but but thank you so much for your

2:22:23

time your patience today and everything else and um yeah thank you and we hope to be speaking to you again at some

2:22:29

point in the future okay if I’m still around I I I hope you will be thank you

2:22:36

so much you’re welcome