From the River to the Sea. Ibaitik Itsasora (4)

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let’s talk about the two-state solution

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Israel living alongside the new state of

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Palestine it’s long been seen as the

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answer but remains

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elusive with the war in Gaza it’s back

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in the headlines the only real solution

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is a two-state solution over time a

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lasting end to the Israeli Palestinian

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conflict can only comes through a

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two-state solution a future in which two

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states live side by side in peace and

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security so what do people actually mean

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when they talk about a two-state

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solution how long has the idea been

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around and why do some people think that

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it’s become more of an avoidance

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strategy that lets politicians off the

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hook they use this as a tool to absolve

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themselves of responsibility it’s a form

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of

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escapism

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the two-state solution is all about

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deciding how this land is divided who

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lives there and who controls it now you

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might think it’s about getting Israelis

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and Palestinians to agree on a simple

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split but there’s nothing simple about

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it just look at the map for a start this

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is Israel and then you have the

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Palestinian territories which are under

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Israeli military occupation and cut off

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from each other gaza’s here Israel’s war

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has left the strip in Ruins and the West

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Bank is more like a patchwork of

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Palestinian land because of all the

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settlements Israel has built over the

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years these are illegal under

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international law there are now 700,000

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Israeli settlers living on Palestinian

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land and it makes the path to a

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Palestinian State much more complicated

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if this was meant to be a question of

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two states and if it was question of

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drawing a border believe me a border

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would have been drawn a long time ago

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the problem is is that this has never

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been about a line it’s about the rights

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of individuals it’s about history the

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region of Palestine has been fought over

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for thousands of years and controlled by

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different ancient kingdoms and empires

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in more modern times it was part of the

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Ottoman Empire but the British took

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control there during the first world war

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and it later became known as British

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mandate Palestine the population was 78%

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Muslim 11% Jewish and 10% Christian

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according to a census in

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1922 now even before they took control

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the British supported the idea of

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establishing a Jewish homeland in

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Palestine it was stated in a letter

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known as the Balor declaration and the

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Jews were promised a national home in

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Palestine that was the aim of a movement

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called Zionism it encouraged Jews to

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move to British mandate Palestine and in

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the 1920s and 30s more and more did many

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were fleeing persecution in Europe but

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the growing Jewish population led to

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tension with the local Arab population

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the Palestinians Jewish and Arab armed

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groups cropped up and there was

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violence in response a British

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commission suggested partitioning the

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land but there was no support for the

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idea the scheme to divide the country

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between Arabs and Jews has pleased

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nobody in Palestine an agitation has

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fended discontent to the point of

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terrorism in the 1940s the question of

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what should happen in Palestine grew

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more urgent so did pressure to establish

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a Jewish homeland especially after World

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War II and the

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Holocaust in 194 7 the British asked the

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United Nations to make recommendations

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on the future government of

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Palestine and this is what they came up

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with another partition plan which

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allocated 56% of the land to a Jewish

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State and left 43% for an Arab State the

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remaining land including Jerusalem with

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all of its holy sites would be under

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International control the UN General

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Assembly voted to adopt the plan Jewish

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leaders accepted it but Arab leaders

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rejected it they saw it as deeply unfair

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especially because the Arab population

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was the

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majority the following year Israel went

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ahead and declared itself a state and

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five Arab Nations went to war with

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Israel Israel calls it their war of

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independence Palestinians call it the

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neba which means catastrophe because in

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that fighting more than 700,000

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Palestinians fled or were forced from

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their homes many ended up in Jordan

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Lebanon and Syria by the way that’s

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important to know about because when

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people talk about a few future

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Palestinian State one of the big

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questions is whether all those

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Palestinians and their descendants will

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get to go back What’s called the right

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of

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return now after the 1948 War Israel

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ended up with 78% of the land so more

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than the UN partition plan that left 22%

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for Palestinians to live in split

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between the West Bank and East Jerusalem

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which Jordan controlled and Gaza which

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Egypt controlled those borders became

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known as the Green line they’re still

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the internationally recognized borders

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of Israel and it’s more or less the

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division that many people have in mind

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when talking about a two-state solution

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but then in 1967 there was another War

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Israel pushed out Jordan and Egypt

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seized control of the West Bank East

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Jerusalem and Gaza and imposed a

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military occupation many many many

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countries then started to put pressure

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on Palestinians to say You must

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recognize Israel’s existence you have to

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recognize that Israel took over 78% of

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your historic Homeland and instead let’s

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try to get back that remaining 22% in

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the Palestinian side the idea of

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territorial partition was very very

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difficult uh but by the 1970s there are

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some who were pushing saying you know

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look we’re never going to get all of

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historic Palestine we can build a state

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on a portion of liberated Palestine and

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in 1988 there was an official shift by

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that point the pl o the Palestinian

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Liberation Organization had become the

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main group representing Palestinians and

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their cause its chairman yaser arat

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declared the independence of

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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Palestine and although the Declaration

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was mostly symbolic it was important

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because Arafat also made it clear that

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he accepted the principle of partition

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and the existence of Israel that helped

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pave the way for the Oslo Accords a pair

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of agreements which are seen as the

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beginning of the peace process it

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started out with secret talks in

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Norway’s capital that’s where the name

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comes from and it led to this

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moment the Israeli and Palestinian

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leaders shaking hands on the White House

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lawn after Decades of fighting they

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declared their commitment to Peaceful

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coexistence so what were the details of

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Oslo well in The First Agreement 1993

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the two sides formally recognized each

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other which was a big deal they set out

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a timetable for Israel to start

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withdrawing from parts of the occupied

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territories and for Palestinians to get

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more autonomy that led to the creation

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of the Palestinian Authority or PA

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although its power was and still is

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limited it’s more like a local Council

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than a government and the PA only

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operates in parts of the Palestinian

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territories because in the second dolo

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agreement the West Bank was carved up

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into three administrative areas what the

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peace process was all about was not

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about Israel accepting the 78% and

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letting Palestinians live freely in the

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remaining

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22% instead what it was about was Israel

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takes the 78% puts it in its pocket and

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then negotiates over the remaining 22%

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now the Alo Accords were interim

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Arrangements they were only supposed to

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last 5 years and in that time the two

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sides Were Meant to to negotiate the

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really tough stuff what are called the

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permanent status issues so things like

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how to share Jerusalem the city has huge

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religious importance for both sides and

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they both see it as their Capital the

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issue of Palestinian refugees and

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whether they get the right of return we

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mentioned earlier what to do about all

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the Israeli settlements security

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arrangements and where you draw those

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final borders so Oslo looked like it was

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heading in the direction of a two-state

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solution but it wasn’t actually out the

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Osa Accords are sometimes remembered as

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having um sort of promised a two-state

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solution that is absolutely and

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completely false it’s very very work

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carefully drafted in order to avoid

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mentioning anything about Palestinian

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State still the two sides were talking

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to each other there was a lot of

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diplomacy going on and many people felt

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optimistic about it there were a lot of

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Peace conferences on all kind of levels

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Grassroots politicians journalists

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artists there was a hope in the air but

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there was opposition to the peace

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process too on both

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sides in Israel there were big protests

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against Oslo close to half of the

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society that said we’re not on board

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with this process talking to terrorists

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this is going to uh mean Israeli

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withdrawal from territory that is an

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essential part of the land of Israel in

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1995 a Jewish nationalist who rejected

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the peace process assassinated prime

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minister Yak rabim so very early on one

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of the main architects of the oso

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Accords was

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[Music]

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gone there was also opposition on the

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Palestinian side for lots of reasons

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there are many Palestinians ill and they

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were also in the late

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90s who didn’t agree with the p of

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Arafat namely that the Palestinian

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should recognize the state of Israel

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there are many Palestinians who believe

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that all Palestine belongs to the

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Palestinian People Israel took it from

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them in 48 and they feel that there’s no

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room for

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compromise that was the position of some

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armed groups like Hamas and Palestinian

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Islamic Jihad who carried out attacks on

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Israel there were also Palestinians who

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opposed Oslo because of their

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frustration about how little it was

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delivering Israel never fully withdrew

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from the territory it promised and it

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kept building settlements we’ll come

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back to that in a minute at least part

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of the Palestinians feel that they are

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cheated that this was a c for Effective

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Israeli annexation just a complete

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disillusionment with diplomacy a

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complete disillusionment with

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negotiations with the with with the Oslo

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process and and and so on by the end of

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the 9s oslo’s 5-year time frame was up

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and the peace process was basically on

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life support there was a push to save it

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at Camp David the US president country

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Retreat how is it going Mr President how

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long is it going to take Mr

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President we pledged to each other we

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would answer no questions and offer no

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comments but the summit ended without an

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agreement and if anything there was more

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distrust as both sides blamed each other

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for the

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failure soon after that frustration and

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anger boiled over the trigger was this

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visit by a senior Israeli politician to

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the alaxa Moss compound in East

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Jerusalem a super inflammatory move

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check out our episode on aloa if you

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want to understand why there were riots

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and it led to an uprising known as the

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second

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inata Palestinians staged huge protests

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some carried out attacks on Israel and

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Israel used heavy military force against

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Palestinians it was more than 4 years of

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intense conflict and all the peace

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efforts just were burning in the fire of

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the intifa but they weren’t complet

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completely extinguished there were many

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more attempts over the years to get the

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peace process back on track and the

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two-state solution became the stated

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goal of all that diplomacy they begin to

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say maybe one of the problems with Oslo

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is it didn’t spell out any end so let’s

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spell something out let’s give something

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to the

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Palestinians um and this is when you

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begin to have open declarations from the

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United States that there should be an

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entity called Palestine at the end but

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while the International Community seemed

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to be doubling down on the two-state

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idea there were other developments

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pulling momentum in the opposite

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direction let’s run through three major

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ones starting with settlements which

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Israel kept on expanding even during the

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height of the peace process it was as

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though the Oslo agreements gave Israel

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the green light to build and expand

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settlements with the thinking being and

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they used to say this we have to take

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every Hilltop and then we can negotiate

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down and and that’s why between the

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years of 1993 to the year 2000 that’s

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why we saw virtually a doubling in the

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number of settlers from 200,000 to

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almost

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400,000 once you are not ready to freeze

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the

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settlements you give the message that

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you don’t agree to a Palestinian State

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cuz if you have an intention to continue

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to build on Palestinian ground so for

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sure you have no intention to evacuate

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it then there’s the way that Politics on

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both sides have developed since the

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early 2000s on the Israeli side there’s

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been a strong shift to the right and

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fewer politicians who back the two-state

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idea an ultra nationalist ideology that

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was once thought of as Extreme has now

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become part of the

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mainstream settlers who openly call for

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the full annexation of all Palestinian

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territory are government ministers

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and in his speech at the UN prime

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minister Benjamin Netanyahu held up a

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map of Israel that covered the whole

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land on the Palestinian side the

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challenge is more about who actually

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speaks for the Palestinian people

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because it’s not that clear you’ve got

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the PLO which still represents

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Palestinians internationally Arafat was

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the chairman but he died in a suspected

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poisoning in 2004 and was replaced by

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Mahmud abas Abbas is also the president

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of the PA but the PA doesn’t operate in

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Gaza anymore because after elections in

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2006 Hamas ended up in control there so

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Palestinian leadership is already split

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and then there are bigger questions

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around legitimacy there haven’t been

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elections since that vote in 2006 these

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days abas is pretty unpopular he’s seen

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as old and out of touch and the PA is

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accused of being corrupt and working too

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closely with israelian authority not

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only does not have any um uh credibility

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and doesn’t no longer has any capacity

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it’s virtually disintegrating in the

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West Bank on the other hand polls show

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that Hamas and its leader isma Han are

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more popular than Mahmud Abbas but

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several countries classify Hamas as a

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terrorist organization and refuse to

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recognize it as a representative of

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Palestinians so where has all of this

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left the peace process well dead

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basically the last time there were

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direct negotiations about a two-state

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solution was in 2014 during the Obama

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Administration so a decade ago you need

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uh credible leaders in Israel and

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Palestine which we we don’t have you

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need serious mediation from outside

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which we don’t have and you need a

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mobilized uh Regional and Global public

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opinion to support the two negotiating

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parties but it’s nowhere on the horizon

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right now this is where the US also

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comes in for a lot of criticism because

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while it’s always had an important role

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as a mediator the US is also Israel’s

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biggest Ally and

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protector Americans

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have such a leverage over Israel who

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Israel is politically economically

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diplomatically internationally and

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obviously H militarily totally dependent

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on the United States they never really

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took measures to push Israel they just

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you know condemned Israel

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with talking you don’t get

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anything and then there’s everything

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that’s happened since October 7th

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2023 around 1,00 people were killed in

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hamas’s attacks on Israel that’s

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according to the Israeli

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authorities in response Israel vowed to

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wipe out Hamas its war on Gaza has

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killed more than 31,000 Palestinians

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most of them women and

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children the un’s highest court said

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there is a plausible risk of

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[Music]

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genocide and against that horrifying

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backdrop Talk of the two-state solution

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is back it’s once again being presented

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as the only option for lasting Peace by

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a range of world leaders and

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organizations the United States

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continues to believe that the best

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viable path indeed the only path is

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through a two-state

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solution

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what’s the Palestinian position well the

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two-state solution Remains the stated

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goal of the PLO hamas’s position is less

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clear in 2017 they published a document

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that did accept the formation of a

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Palestinian State along the 1967 borders

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some took it to mean that Hamas was open

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to diplomacy but Hamas is never

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explicitly recognized Israel and it

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maintains its right to use violence

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against the occupation as for Israel’s

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current position well officials from the

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Prime Minister down have repeatedly

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rejected the idea of a two-state

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solution is there still a chance for a

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two-state solution I think it’s about

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time for the world to realize the oso

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Paradigm failed on the 7th of October

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and we need to build a new one and in

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order to build a new one do that new one

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include the Palestinians living in a

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state of their own is that what it

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includes biggest question is what type

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of Palestinians are in the other side

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this what Israel realized o the answer

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is absolutely no it’s not that the

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two-state solution is absolutely utterly

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forever impossible it’s just politically

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very very unlikely and would require

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such a coincidence of interests and

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political determination that his

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likelihood is extremely slim so there’s

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a lot of skepticism plus there’s an

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accusation that all the talk of a

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two-state solution is actually part of

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the problem those words have become the

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Fig Leaf it’s become a way of plating

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Palestinians very very convenient to

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believe that there is a

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solution somewhere on the on the shelf

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and one day we will take it and use it

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but it’s not there anymore some people

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argue that there needs to be a more

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drastic change in mindset to one that’s

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more realistic about the current

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situation where you’ve got one state the

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state of Israel that has almost total

19:29

control over Palestinian life and

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enforces a system of discrimination that

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human rights groups describe as

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apartheid the argument goes why not

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focus on fixing that with a one-state

19:43

solution so rather than dividing the

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land you focus on how to govern it and

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ensure everyone’s rights are protected

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regardless of their religion or

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ethnicity we have a one state we don’t

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have to create it we have to create a

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new regime only to turn it from an

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aparte system to a to a democracy I

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don’t want to oversimplify it it’s right

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now it seems Unthinkable it’s not like

20:10

we will do a magic and this will

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work but at least I can see a road

20:17

somewhere often times people talk in

20:20

terms of escapism oh this will be undone

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with one-state solution or be undone

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with uh a two-state solution

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but what we really need to focus on is

20:33

ending that violence will Palestinians

20:36

do they want to have their own separate

20:39

entity their own separate State

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certainly some do but the vast majority

20:45

are not looking to have a state the vast

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majority are looking to have that their

20:50

rights are enshrined and protected and

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that’s got to be the starting

20:57

point

21:00

we’ve done lots of other explainers

21:02

related to Israel and Palestine here’s

21:04

one we filmed in East Jerusalem this one

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is all about the US Israel

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[Music]

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relationship