From the River to the Sea. Ibaitik Itsasora (6)

From the River to the Sea 

Ibaitik Itsasora

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Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur oPt@FranceskAlbs

Jeremy Corbyn@jeremycorbyn

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Francesca Albanese, UN Special Rapporteur oPt@FranceskAlbs

ots. 9

Israeli occupation forces are forcing families out of their homes in al-Far’a refugee camp, as the Israeli military continues its assault on the camp for the seventh day in a row.

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Howard Beckett@BeckettUnite

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Quds News Network@QudsNen

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Mohamad Safa@mhdksafa

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Suppressed News.@SuppressedNws

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Voice of Rabbis@voiceofrabbis

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Jackson Hinkle @jacksonhinklle

Al Jazeera English@AJEnglish

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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How Israel uses ceasefires to advance ethnic cleansing | Norman Finkelstein | UNAPOLOGETIC

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYQHuDNBXgE)

“The first few days they will let in some aid, then they will conjure excuses, they will say Hamas is stealing the aid”

In this short clip, Professor Norman Finkelstein speaks about how Israel has historically used ceasefires to distract from its ongoing project of deepening the occupation by making living conditions increasingly more difficult for Palestinians while stealing their land.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

Israel’s happy with the

0:03

ceasefire why

0:05

not the people will be

0:08

there there will be no

0:12

food no water no fuel no

0:17

electricity there will be no

0:20

shelter and at some

0:24

point there will be only two options

0:27

left for the people of Gaza one to

0:31

leave or two Hamas

0:36

resumes its armed

0:39

resistance and then Israel will have the

0:43

pretext for round two in the

0:47

horrors now you may object to what I’m

0:51

saying under the grounds that but the

0:54

ceasefire

0:56

Incorporated humanitary assistance

1:00

and eventually reconstruction in

1:04

Gaza I don’t believe that’s going to be

1:08

remembered after operation pillar of

1:12

Defense in

1:15

2012 the Israelis had to decide whether

1:19

to agree to a

1:21

ceasefire and the ceasefire included

1:25

Provisions for

1:27

ending the criminal block arade of

1:31

Gaza and the defense minister of the

1:35

time was AUD

1:37

Barak and aood Barack famously said to

1:42

the knesset when they were debating

1:45

whether to signed the

1:48

ceasefire he said in order to encourage

1:52

them to agree to it he said once the

1:56

ceasefire is in place everybody forgets

2:00

about the rest what you agreed to

2:03

everybody forgets it and that’s what’s

2:06

going to happen here if bombs aren’t

2:10

dropping if people aren’t dying of

2:15

violent death which one has to

2:18

distinguish from a death from

2:22

starvation if bombs aren’t

2:24

dropping if people aren’t dying of

2:27

violent death then it disappears from

2:31

the headlines once the hostages end on

2:34

both sides the hostages are exchanged it

2:37

disappears from the headlines and the

2:40

only time it will

2:42

reappear is if Hamas then

2:46

says what happened to the humanitarian

2:49

Aid what happened to the Reconstruction

2:51

because Israel won’t allow it of course

2:53

it won’t allow it we have a long history

2:58

one of the sad things about listening to

3:01

pundits discuss the matter is they have

3:06

no knowledge

3:09

whatsoever of the

3:11

history there was an agreement to lift

3:15

the the criminal blockade of Gaza after

3:19

operation castled in

3:22

20089 after the mavi mara incident when

3:26

the humanitarian

3:27

flotilla came under attack from Israel

3:30

and create an

3:32

international Scandal there was an

3:35

agreement to lift the

3:37

blockade after

3:40

operation pillar of

3:42

Defense after operation protective in

3:48

2014 nothing came of it it’s all exactly

3:52

you know very cynical but very true what

3:55

Barack says e Barack said the defense

3:58

minister once the prime Minister he said

4:01

once the ceasefire is in place everybody

4:04

forgets the rest and after operation

4:08

protective Edge in

4:10

2014 there were Provisions to ease the

4:14

blockade of

4:16

Gaza and as we all know nothing came of

4:22

it and that was

4:24

actually the um

4:28

preamble to the Great March of return in

4:33

uh March

4:35

2018 the attempt to get that blockade

4:39

lifted uh and actually I think that was

4:42

the

4:43

main stimulus

4:46

behind the um attack on October 7th that

4:51

blockade of

4:53

Gaza so um I see no reason to

5:00

anticipate that what happened multiple

5:04

times in the past won’t happen again the

5:07

humanitarian Aid yes the first few days

5:10

they’re going to let

5:12

in uh humanitarian Aid then they’re

5:15

going to conjure

5:17

excuses they’re going to say that Hamas

5:20

is stealing the aid they’re going to say

5:24

that we can’t admit cement because Hamas

5:26

will use it to reconstruct the the

5:29

tunnel system and all sorts of pretexts

5:33

will be

5:34

created uh and then the people are going

5:37

to be faced with a very

5:39

dire Choice whether

5:44

to

5:46

stay and starve and be

5:51

homeless or to figure out a way to

5:55

leave and for Hamas there will be the

5:58

Stark choice

6:00

of honor the

6:02

ceasefire not

6:04

withstanding that all the other

6:07

Provisions under stage one stage two and

6:11

stage three all the other Provisions are

6:15

discarded

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Gaza Will Resist Trump with Dr Azzam Tamimi

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUqxoenhUgc)

The announcement of Donald Trump at the press conference with Netanyahu had all the shock value we expect from the rogue president. How do we understand his intention to ‘clean out’ Gaza and turn it into a riviera, and how do Palestinians view this brazen ethnic cleansing?

To help us understand the we have back on the show Dr Azzam Tamimi, who is one of the leading Palestinian commentators and author of one of the most authoritative works on Hamas.

Timestamps:

0:00 – Introduction

1:53 – Palestinian’s response to Trump

4:57 – Will Gazans Leave?

7:20 – Motivation of Palestinians

10:22 – Hypocrisy of liberals

12:56 – Trump and US Empire

15:55 – Level of resistance

21:34 – Narrative swung?

24:56 – Trump’s negotiation tactics

27:26 – Saudi Arabia’s normalisation

29:24 – Egypt and Jordan

31:15 – Trump triggered ceasefire?

33:19 – West Bank tensions

35:17 – Role of PA

36:44 – Ramadan and activism

41:17 – Islam and Justice

Transkripzioa:

Introduction

0:00

Palestinians thought he was uh mad the  Palestinians of today are unlike the   Palestinians of 1948 we can often  romanticize uh the struggle of the  

0:09

Palestinians This Is Our Land we are not going  anywhere the Vietnamese resisted the algerians  

0:14

resisted the South Africans resisted so so  long as the idea is valid and finds people  

0:21

to carry it the resistance will continue  the Palestinians are living in open prisons   the Palestinian Authority has been the worst  thing that happened to the pales Ian since the

0:30

neba the announcement of Donald Trump at the  press conference with Netanyahu had all the  

0:39

shock value we expect from a rogue president  but how do we understand the intention to clean  

0:44

out GZA and turn it into a Riviera and how do  Palestinians view the Brazen ethnic cleansing  

0:51

on show now to help us understand the subject  we have back on the show Dr aam Tamimi who is  

0:58

one of the leading Palestinian commentators and  authors of one of the most authoritative works  

1:03

in the English language of Hamas dram  tamim and welcome back to the thinking

1:10

Muslim delighted to be back well thank you for for  joining us once again and and uh we’re speaking in  

1:18

the week where uh I think it’s it’s not an ere  exaggeration to state that there was a a wild  

1:25

Announcement by Donald Trump uh together with  Benjamin Netanyahu who of course of course was  

1:30

very happy to hear uh Donald Trump announce  that his intention was to in effect occupy  

1:37

Gaza and remove uh the strip of its Palestinian  population and so supposedly resettle them in one  

1:45

of the surrounding uh countries it sounds like a  very callous plan um I suppose my first question  

1:53

is um how are the Palestinians responding to uh  to this announcement well Palestinians thought  

2:01

he was uh mad to suggest something like this  yeah they’ve endured 15 months of genocide and  

2:11

remained U attached to their uh ancestral land and  now he thinks he can easily just remove them and  

2:22

turn it into a Rivier or something uh but you see  putting aside the uh incoherence of his idea and  

2:34

of of the language even he uses the idea itself  is actually a repeat of what the British did more  

2:42

than 80 years ago this is what they did to to  the Palestinians between 180 years ago because  

2:49

the Palestinians were living there were living  in Palestine and then uh the British decided  

2:56

that the Jewish Problem of Europe could best be  resolved d by uh dispossessing the Palestinians  

3:04

and bringing the Jews uh to inhabit the land um  it’s it’s not a new idea it’s the it’s really  

3:14

what colonialism is about and it is exactly what  happened to the Americans when the white man of  

3:21

Europe came armed with the Bible with all sorts  of uh mythical bibl claims uh pretending to be the  

3:35

Israelites and calling the red Indians or calling  the indigenous population red Indians and calling  

3:42

them the Canaanites they depopulated America  they exterminated the indigenous population  

3:51

the the the thing that really comes to mind is  that since the end of the second world war the  

3:59

current the world World Order we’ve been living  under tried to put um a more Humane face but now  

4:08

Trump comes and says stop the hypocrisy uh this is  where we’re what we’re going to do because we’ve  

4:15

been doing it all along uh but of course what the  British managed to do 100 years ago is impossible  

4:23

to do today yeah uh the world is different we’ve  seen protests and rejections from all quarters for  

4:31

different reasons each rejection people have their  own reasons but uh above all the Palestinians of  

4:39

today are unlike the Palestinians of 1948 I think  they are much more aware they they they’ve learned  

4:48

from the experience of their uh grandparents  and parents um and they’re willing to put up  

4:56

whatever resistance is needed I mean we can often  romanticize uh the struggle of the Palestinians in  

5:01

particular this last 15 months we’ve seen just the  sheer uh resilience of the uh the people of Gazza  

5:09

but of course you know one wonders um the place is  now uninhabitable according to the United Nations  

5:15

it’s been it’s been destroyed and even though  there will be reluctance I mean how how many  

5:22

Palestinians you think will uh decide that they  may want to leave the strip because life is is  

5:28

unbearable I supect for so many especially in the  northern uh territories of of Gaza well nobody has  

5:34

asked the Palestinians directly I mean we we don’t  have any uh polls or the Israelis claim that if  

5:44

you offer the Palestinians way out they will all  leave because this is what the Israelis wish to  

5:51

happen uh but at least from some of the statements  we heard over the media and not just Al jazer even  

5:59

even the CNN BBC World Service whichever media  that managed to have a representative interviewing  

6:08

people sitting on the rubble uh they all rejected  the they clearly said This is Our Land we are not  

6:19

going anywhere and what really uh the irony  here is that uh Trump claims he wants to solve  

6:32

a problem that the Palestinians have the problem  the Palestinians have been having is the existence  

6:40

of Israel on their land is the Zionist occupation  of their land and uh they simply ask this question  

6:49

why why doesn’t Trump volunteer to take the  Israelis somewhere else yeah instead of offering  

6:55

to remove the Palestinians from their land after  all these Israelis are mostly of European origin  

7:02

um they never belong to the land respective  of whatever false claims they are making to  

7:08

justify The Invasion and the occupation uh and  therefore they they’ll probably be much more  

7:14

comfortable in America or in Germany as an act of  atonement can you spell out the motivation of the  

7:22

Palestinians because I I suspect many westerners  many many materialists will probably find it very  

7:29

difficult to to understand that mindset that  enables people to remain rooted to the land  

7:38

even though um you know the Israeli War Machine  has has destroyed it like explaining words uh  

7:45

to to to our Muslims and our non-muslim viewers uh  What uh what lay behind what lies behind that that  

7:53

level of commitment to the land well at the basic  level this is not a unique experience the the  

7:59

Palestinians are not the first people on the face  of Earth or in history uh to be subjected to such

8:06

Colonial project the Vietnamese the algerians  South Africans the nations of Latin America  

8:17

many nations in Africa and Asia yeah know how  many people deserted their Homeland because of  

8:23

the hardship the colonial authorities create for  them uh very few yes of course there are a few  

8:30

who uh for for their own personal reasons prefer  to go somewhere else yeah but the majority prefer  

8:37

to resist the Vietnamese resisted the algerians  resisted the South Africans resisted so what the  

8:43

Palestinians are doing is a natural human response  because they are the victims they they’ve been  

8:50

attacked they’ve been invaded But one can add to  this the fact that majority of the Palestinians  

8:56

are Muslims and uh Muslims have this faith that  uh If you defend your land and if you die in the  

9:06

process of Defending Your Homeland especially when  that Homeland has Al AA which is the first K of  

9:14

the Muslims and the third holiest mosque on the  face of the Earth then the rewards are enormous  

9:23

that is divine rewards and if you are killed you  are a martyr and if you suffer your suffering will  

9:30

be recompensated very soon uh so there there is  an an element of Faith here um and and that’s  

9:39

the the that’s what we saw in Gaza uh people were  being hammered day and night and then when they  

9:45

are asked how are you they’ll say alhamdulillah  praise be to Allah many people around the world  

9:51

were uh astonished I mean what what what’s wrong  with these people there’s nothing wrong with them  

9:58

because it is part of their faith that uh if they  uh undergo a tribulation of any kind a test um a  

10:09

crisis whatever uh and if they show patience and  if uh if they show resilience then uh they will  

10:19

be enormously rewarded can you comment on uh the  I don’t know if it’s duplicitous but the duplicity  

10:26

we see amongst um let’s call them liberals in  America and Europe who have um stood silent  

10:33

to uh for these last 15 months and and uh have  actually helped uh the Israeli War Machine but  

10:40

after this week’s Announcement by Donald Trump  have roundly condemned Donald Trump for um uh  

10:46

for for calling for ethnic cleansing I mean it  seems to be a a um uh you know a a a a problem  

10:54

in in the mindset here about uh when it comes to  Palestinians um um let just talk to that apparent  

11:01

hypocrisy well the objection to Trump varies I  mean why people object I’m sure that most people  

11:11

object because they find Insanity in what he is  proposing yeah um but I think the intellectuals  

11:19

are truly worried that this is marking the end of  the world order uh they’ve um happily lived under  

11:29

since the end of the second world war but we’ve  had 15 months of genocide where the world order   has that is true but uh that genocide could  have been overlooked could have been I don’t  

11:42

know Justified probably in in various ways  especially with the Israeli propaganda that  

11:48

Hamas started it and we are responding and  all the lies about Hamas doing things that  

11:54

they never really did uh but remember that this  world order claims to be a rules based order and  

12:04

now not uh Trump comes to do away with all these  rules so what sort of world are we going to be uh  

12:13

living under so even if you didn’t care much about  the Palestinians from the point of view of those  

12:20

who really didn’t care uh they care that today  Trump is dismantling the rules-based world order  

12:29

no longer uh rule of law no longer the values of  democracy and human rights no longer uh any of  

12:36

those values that many Western governments used to  put a beautiful face when they deal with the with  

12:47

the others so so I think there is there is real  concern this is not uh what Trump is doing is is  

12:55

a very serious thing but as you intimated there  it is a Shad and a lot of it is window dressing  

13:01

you know what Trump has done or does is similar  to what his predecessors have done but they’ve  

13:07

shown a a a a nice face I mean isn’t in a sense  uh what Donald Trump doing better for for this  

13:15

world because he’s no more than displaying the  true intent uh of uh of this American Empire uh  

13:24

I think the difference is that Trump doesn’t care  about uh pretending to be benevolent pretending to  

13:35

be humanitarian that that is of no concern to him  whereas previous the previous administration in in  

13:43

Washington yeah provided the Israelis with with  a killing machine but at the same time uh paid  

13:50

lip service to human rights to democracy uh and  that worked for many years uh I mean America since  

13:59

the beginning since the end of the of the second  world war has been committing war crimes all over   the world uh but they always justify this they’re  either fighting the Communists or fighting Islamic  

14:11

terrorism or fighting drug cartels or doing this  or doing that there’s always some sort of a an  

14:18

explanation so that what they’re doing uh doesn’t  seem to uh contrast or contradict the rules  

14:29

upon which the the the world order is based  now Trump is just shredding all of this he’s  

14:36

putting it down and he’s saying I don’t care  I’m going to do it for tourism reasons and we  

14:43

turn it into a Riviera and uh while he wants  the the the population of the world to come  

14:50

and enjoy themselves in Gaza the Palestinians  can do whatever they like somewhere else um  

15:00

you see the the it is still it is the same racism  that we’ve been uh complaining uh from but I think  

15:11

it this time it’s uh entirely unmasked um when the  British the the depopulated parts of Palestine in  

15:22

preparation for the Zionist to come and do the  rest for them when 750,000 Palestinians were  

15:29

removed from their homes in 1948 there was no  concern whatsoever for the Palestinians uh yet  

15:37

it was justified in the name of recompensa  the victims of the Holocaust um Trump has no  

15:47

justification he doesn’t need justification might  is right we can do it then we will do it that’s   the and that’s the difference can I ask you to  comment about the resistance and where it is  

15:59

at the moment now you’ve written probably one of  the most extensive works on Hamas in the English   language and um you followed Hamas quite closely  in terms of our political and and and Military  

16:11

leaderships um where is hamus at the moment and  the resistance in general at the moment and do  

16:19

you subscribe to to to the uh the idea that in  a sense um the ceasefire marks the victory of  

16:28

of this resistance well it marks the defeat of the  Israelis because they haven’t clearly they haven’t  

16:35

been able to achieve any of their objectives  um now the resistance movement has been wounded  

16:42

there’s no doubt about this and has been to a  large extent uh been uh uh maybe stripped of  

17:00

some of its uh military power yeah however we go  back to the the same argument that this is an idea  

17:09

and the idea doesn’t die um now how intact and  how strong the resistance is still today I’m not  

17:18

sure I don’t know I have no information uh but  I was uh surprised like many people around the  

17:26

world to see Alam Fighters come out of the rubble  uh organize the delivery of the Israeli captives  

17:38

yeah in an orderly manner uh and putting on a show  of force uh despite the fact that most probably we  

17:48

already know of course some of their top leaders  have been killed that most probably a large number  

17:55

of their top leaders have been eliminated yet  these young men um have carried the idea forward  

18:04

so so long as the idea is valid and finds people  to carry it the resistance will continue and you  

18:12

talked there about the hostages um uh can you  talk to the disparity I suppose between the  

18:21

treatment of hostages on the Palestinian  side and hostages on the uh Israeli side  

18:29

well the Palestinians and this the the the  resistance in particular uh imate from the  

18:37

values of Islam in treating the the uh the  captives I prefer to call them captives because  

18:44

we the Palestinians also are captives in Israeli  detention camps uh so there are captives here and  

18:51

there are captives here the Islamic rulings on  the treatment of captives has been observed to  

18:58

the full by Hamas and by the other factions that  held uh those captives because that’s part of uh  

19:05

the Islamic tradition and part of the Islamic  faith and you you saw them come out quite quite  

19:12

well healthwise apparently they were fed well  uh clothed well taken care of whereas on the  

19:21

other side the Israelis treat the Palestinians  worse than they treat animals probably they have  

19:27

a lot more compassion for animals than for the  Palestinians yeah and we saw that some of the  

19:33

Palestinians actually were coming out of prison  like uh caveman uh some of them almost at the  

19:43

at the edge uh of losing their lives uh and they  they told stories about how they they were treat  

19:52

especially since the 7th of October 2023 how the  Israelis uh were torturing them regularly how they  

19:59

reduce their uh uh food intake daily food intake  and on the way out of prison how they humiliated  

20:07

them and beat them constantly until they were  free and here we find two completely different  

20:15

civilizations two completely different cultures  two completely different uh uh Visions I’m not  

20:21

talking here about Islam and Judaism because I  know many Jews who uh respect human rights who  

20:27

respect human and who condemn Zionism like we do  condemn it exactly but Zionism itself is a is a  

20:37

is a movement is an ideology that is anti-human  that is so racist supremacist that doesn’t see  

20:45

that the other deserves to be treated as a full  human being and that’s the difference whereas in  

20:51

Islam whether you like the other person or not  Islam tells you how you have to to to treat them

21:04

do not let your dislike of people uh make you  swerve away or make you be treat them unfairly  

21:13

be fair be just that’s closer to piety that’s an  Islamic principle whereas Zionism believes that  

21:21

if you are a Zionist you are superhuman you  have Divine qualities and a Divine license to  

21:28

kill the other to take their land and to do to  them whatever you like I me much of what we’ve  

21:35

seen over the last 15 16 months especially  in the last few weeks is is uh the command  

21:42

of the narrative and uh I think it’s it’s fair  to say that the narrative has SW swung away from  

21:48

the Israelis and and moved in in a very positive  direction which we haven’t seen before uh but but  

21:55

the the narrative that the Palestinian iions are  um uncivilized still is maintained especially in  

22:03

the mainstream media um I mean how do you assess I  suppose the point about the narrative and where it  

22:08

stands at the moment but also uh in in a greater  way I mean how can we uh counter this um this sort  

22:16

of barbarism versus civilization narrative that  many of the western press still maintain uh uh  

22:23

you know even though the the reality is obvious  in front of them I think the problem we have is  

22:28

is that the mainstream media in the west is not  free when it comes to Palestine they are under  

22:34

constraint they are under control I’ll give you  an example I was watching the BBC World Service  

22:40

uh yesterday when I was in Rotterdam and there  was a lady interviewed in the studio and the  

22:47

lady was referring to the uh icj and the IC these  two top courts World courts and the conviction  

23:01

the the the ruling that Netanyahu and others in  Israel are accused of genocide of of war crimes  

23:12

and the uh presenter was terrified she immediately  responded saying well the Israelis would respond  

23:19

and say that they do not accept these charges yeah  when the BBC does not have respect for the the  

23:28

two highest courts in the world I mean what  remains of Integrity of of honesty and of decency  

23:37

in the in the mainstream media and I think what  uh changed uh uh the balance in terms of whose  

23:46

narrative uh is more acceptable or more authentic  is the Independent Media the social media uh and  

23:56

the uh young men and women around the world who  have defied the establishment they’ve gone against  

24:03

their own establishments against their own um  university managements uh and tried to Open  

24:12

the Eyes of the world to see that the Palestinians  have always been the victims and their design have  

24:18

always been the aggressors I think this is what  has uh made the difference and this has pushed  

24:26

uh certain segments of the mainstream media to  realign uh because we’ve we’ve we’ve seen a slight  

24:34

change whether we talking about the CNN or BBC  or sky or whatever uh or even the newspapers the  

24:42

main newspapers around the world under pressure  from the independent uh um uh media outposts  

24:53

they had they they had to to realign themselves  returning back to Donald Trump’s announcement um  

25:00

very is speculation that Donald Trump as a means  to negotiate starts with a maximalist position  

25:07

a very Hardline position and then negotiates down  and so the uh the assessment is that uh he insists  

25:15

on on this clearing out project of guaza not as  a as a as a a final goal as an intent but rather  

25:22

as leverage over Regional plays and over Hamas  and and the Palestinians I mean how much do you  

25:28

buy that analysis look what Trump has said May um  ironically have completely adverse uh effects look  

25:41

at the response of some of the strongest allies  of the United States of America in the Middle  

25:46

East Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia in particular I  was listening of course there’s Prince turil FAL  

25:53

has been outspoken in this regard and yesterday I  was listening to a Saudi journalist speaking from  

26:00

jeda and this is what he said to Trump instead  of removing the Palestinians from their Homeland  

26:08

why don’t you take the Israelis away and and  uh have them settle somewhere else yeah for  

26:15

the Saudi and of course a journalist in Saudi  Arabia wouldn’t be speaking to an international  

26:20

Outlet like the BBC without consent from the  higher authorities I think Trump has annoyed  

26:28

almost everybody in the region and probably more  around the world um because it’s just unbelievable  

26:37

what he what he has proposed not only that I think  his um business uh like thinking doesn’t give him  

26:49

the chance to assess the likely repercussions the  any attempt to remove move the Palestinians from  

26:59

Gaza by force or from the West Bank by force  is likely to engulf many more uh countries  

27:08

in the region in the war instead of keeping it  restricted to Gaza or to Janine or to to to to  

27:14

t and I I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that  Trump will realize this uh in a few days and will  

27:23

change his mind like he did on other issues Dr  tamim I was speaking to uh Abdullah Alder the  

27:29

son of Salman Al AA recently and uh he said to  me that there is no real willingness within the  

27:36

Saudi establish in particular with NBS who’s now  the de facto strongman of of Saudi Arabia to uh  

27:43

to really cut a deal which is uh which leads to  some form of justice for Palestinians uh but but  

27:49

you know more so that many of these soundings are  leverage uh for um for for more uh for for Saudi  

28:00

interests in particular they want this NATO style  peace agreement with the uh with the Americans um  

28:06

uh do you believe that the Saudis are going to  normalize in spite of of the Palestinians and  

28:16

their claims I don’t think they will normalize if  they believe that the deal on the table might uh  

28:26

threaten their own existence today Trump uh  suggested that Palestine should be in Saudi  

28:33

Arabia imagine I mean yeah uh what would be the  response of the Saudis in this regard if you  

28:40

bring the Palestinians into Saudi Arabia you think  that will step will keep the regime stable yeah  

28:46

that’s what that’s how they’re thinking they want  stability they want to remain in power they’re not  

28:51

doing it out of love for the Palestinians they’re  doing it because they now feel that Trump uh has  

28:59

has gone well beyond what is acceptable of course  Muhammad bin Salman Muhammad bin Zed uh CeCe King  

29:09

Abdullah of Jordan and many others in the region  would probably have been ready to do business with  

29:16

Trump but not in this way Trump is not giving  them leeway he’s just gone beyond imagination  

29:25

and and so on on that subject Egypt and Jordan  um of course the Americans do have leverage over  

29:31

these countries military aid and and uh uh trade  um how how how much do you think uh at the moment  

29:40

they’re they’re very clear they do not want the  repatriate or the patriation of of of Palestinians  

29:46

to their countries uh but how much do you think uh  the Americans have leverage over over these these  

29:53

governments and and and can use that leverage well  the Americans have had a lot of Leverage but now  

29:59

what they’re doing they’re telling these countries  we’re proposing something that might finish you  

30:07

off so how how can you accept something like this  yeah the and the expulsion of the people of Gaza  

30:15

will certainly be followed by the expulsion of the  people of the West Bank um because if there is a  

30:22

precedent that will be followed on and there will  be no more Hashim mites in Jordan uh the nature of  

30:30

Egypt will change um and if the Palestinians  no matter where you put them they’ll never  

30:39

forget that Palestine is their Homeland they will  continue to work for the return and uh you look  

30:46

at the world now Palestinians live in Australia  as Australian citizens in America as American  

30:51

citizens in Britain as British citizens in Africa  in Asia in Latin America everywhere there are  

30:58

hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Latin  America when it comes to Palestine they’d  

31:03

work for the return to Palestine it doesn’t  disappear it doesn’t go away but Trump’s idea  

31:11

creates problems for his own allies and I think  that’s why they are worried it it’s now become  

31:17

uh conventional wisdom that Donald Trump was in  in a in a sense the uh the main trigger behind  

31:24

the ceasefire agreement and um pushed if not kol  Netanyahu to sign that peace uh that agreement  

31:31

that ceasefire agreement now uh with this recent  announcement and the condition that Trump has set  

31:38

that Palestinians have somehow got to leave their  land I mean do you how do you see the prospect of  

31:43

that second phase of the ceasefire holding I  mean is it very plausible that the Israelis  

31:49

will use this as an excuse to um uh to to once  again um destroy Gaza I think it’s become uh  

31:58

apparent now that Trump Trump’s idea about taking  Gaza and removing the Palestinians um was probably  

32:13

not um a sudden thing yeah it didn’t come out of  the blue it must have been thought over between  

32:24

him and some of his closest Zionist allies in  Israel as well as in the White House and that  

32:31

now makes me think that most probably when  he pressed for a ceasefire agreement to be  

32:39

uh uh made he had in mind that once the hostages  are retrieved then we can go back to War uh and  

32:51

that’s why now Netanyahu is speaking that language  he’s is talking in these terms uh but I wonder I  

32:57

mean these people never learn learned lessons I  mean what more can they do to the people of Gaza   what more destruction uh can they bring about  in order to bring them down to their knees 15  

33:11

months of genocide didn’t do it so how many more  months uh will they will they do it again uh can  

33:20

I turn to the West Bank because of course uh the  West Bank has there’s been very worrying signs of  

33:26

of um of tensions in the West Bank including with  the PA and and and we spoke about this briefly in  

33:33

our last uh conversation um Trump did say that  he’s considering he’s mooded the idea that uh  

33:41

the sovereignty of the West Bank could be given  to the Israelis um uh how uh how anxious are you  

33:50

I suppose that uh the West Bank is is is next it  is definitely next and uh it I had my suspicions  

33:59

that uh Netanyahu agreed to the ceasefire because  most probably he was promised uh the annexation of  

34:09

the West Bank uh now in reality much of the  West Bank had already been annexed even if  

34:16

not officially uh but in day-to-day practice  the Palestinians are living in open prisons  

34:24

throughout the West Bank it’s been uh cut into  pieces shredded um life is hellish and now the  

34:34

Israelis can enter any area and start U destroying  houses like they did in Gaza uh and Netanyahu has  

34:43

his um Coalition Partners to appease so he trying  he’s trying to reassure them in order to maintain  

34:51

the the the cohesiveness of his government that  he has not given up uh on the various uh religious  

34:59

Zionist dreams if one may call them so so yes  the people of the West Bank are very anxious  

35:08

they expect the worst but at the same time uh I  think the majority of the Palestinians uh will  

35:16

just resist and the role of the Palestinian  Authority in in what’s happened over the last  

35:23

few months as well as the action that the Israelis  have taken in Janine uh and and other other places  

35:30

in the West Bank I mean again we briefly spoke  about this in in in our last conversation uh but  

35:36

how do you how do you rate or assess the uh the  actions of the Palestinian Authority over this  

35:42

last year and a half the Palestinian Authority  has been the worst thing that happened to the   Palestinians since the neba had it not been for  the existence of the Palestinian Authority much  

35:54

of what the Israelis have done to the West Bank  they could never have done done the confiscation  

36:00

of land the demolition of houses the banishment  of uh people the uprooting of olive trees the  

36:07

burning of crops uh the building of settlements  and the expansion of existing settlements all  

36:13

these actions are possible because they have a  Palestinian body uh that provides protection for  

36:25

the Israeli troops as well as for the settlers  while they they’re committing all these crimes  

36:31

uh Against Humanity uh so the Palestinian  Authority is just is is a scandal it’s uh  

36:41

as I said it’s the worst thing that ever happened  to the Palestinians finally I want to ask you a   question uh maybe more closer to home um Ramadan  is coming up and many within the Muslim Community  

36:53

would be turning to spiritual practice and wanted  to gain closeness to Allah subhah wa ta’ala and  

36:59

you know of course we’ve had this year and a half  of genocide and um I I don’t know I mean often uh  

37:07

we start to demarcate our personal from from the  from sort of from the global and separate our uh  

37:15

our Justice related activities to our personal  ibadat and spiritual activities um how does one  

37:23

remain consistent spiritually internally but  but at the same time uh remain wedded to these  

37:31

Islamic concepts of Justice which require them  to think politically and require them to engage  

37:36

in activism and and boycotts and and the rest of  it it’s really a question of what one understands  

37:43

Islam to be and what does it mean to be a Muslim  for the early generation of Muslims during the  

37:49

time of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam  the month of Ramadan the month of fasting and   the month of Twi and the month of um all these  social uh special social uh activities uh was  

38:06

also the month of jihad the major battles uh in  defense of Justice in defense of Truth and in  

38:14

defense of the umah took place in Ramadan so the  a true Muslim would not separate between acts of  

38:23

spirituality and acts of uh Jihad in defense of  the ummah um and I think this is what we need to  

38:30

rebuild uh especially among the Young Generation  okay the older generation may Allah be with them  

38:39

I mean if people are used to a certain lifestyle  it’s difficult to change it after 50 or 60 years  

38:46

but I think uh young Muslim men and women need  to go back to the S of the Prophet sallallahu  

38:54

alaihi wasallam to grasp what it means to be  a Muslim truly H is it really enough to just  

39:03

fast the month of Ramadan and at night go and do  thewi in one of the mosques and then feel happy  

39:10

about having done my bit while our brothers not  only in Palestine but around the world are being  

39:17

subjected to all sorts of atrocities or I need  to think of something more more more positive  

39:27

in terms of my duty toward the umah uh and one  of the early things that we need to do is to come  

39:35

together in order to counter the uh actions of the  Zionist Lobby in this country as well as in the  

39:42

West in general we are being silenced we are being  uh intimidated uh into not expressing support for  

39:50

justice around the world and something has to be  done about this we have to be defiant yesterday  

39:57

my lecture in Rotterdam was supposed to be  at the University of Rotterdam and then under  

40:03

pressure from the lobby the university cancelled  it and it had to be held in in one of the local  

40:09

mosques uh what what is the role of the Muslim  Community in this regard do we allow universities  

40:18

and other establishment institutions to get  away with uh closing Avenues in our face and  

40:27

placing restrictions on us we are not committing a  crime we are simply standing by truth and Justice  

40:33

and we want the world to hear uh our side of the  story that’s all we’re doing nobody is resorting  

40:40

to violence or to terrorism God forbid or to  any such things yet The Establishment with all  

40:48

its official as well as unofficial institutions  uh is bringing pressure is is placing pressure  

40:55

on the Muslim Community and Muslim individuals  across Europe young men and women in the Muslim  

41:03

Community need to come together and enter into  Coalition with others who may not be Muslim but  

41:09

who are Justice supporters and let’s form a  global movement against this Injustice can  

41:17

I uh follow up on that and and I I get questions  from Young Muslims who say that and and maybe this  

41:22

comes from um some Scholars within our community  that that uh we don’t have the spiritual tools uh  

41:32

or we haven’t refined our spiritual character  sufficiently enough to be uh involved with uh  

41:38

activism so there is this linear um conveyor belt  that one needs to First have a level of of Iman  

41:45

and and TAA before one gets involved with politics  and activism um is that how you see um as someone  

41:52

who’s who’s experienced Muslim Community for  many decades here in the west is that how you see  

41:57

um Islam and and Justice now those who make such  Preposterous claim do they have um a means of  

42:06

measuring spirituality that if you reach a certain  level then you can go and perform Jihad that’s  

42:12

ridiculous KH who fought against Islam as soon as  he embraced Islam he became a warrior for Islam  

42:22

he didn’t go into a school of spirituality and  entered into a Circle or a or an and spend years  

42:31

of uh educating himself before he defended the the  truth and Justice spirituality is needed all the  

42:42

time and that can that is a continuous process but  at the same time you have to be active you cannot  

42:48

uh stand uh helpless and motionless uh while you  the oppress ERS are persecuting their victims  

43:01

the way we see in Palestine and elsewhere in the  world that’s not acceptable that’s not the Islam   I understand if there was one piece of advice  you can give to a young Muslim who is um trying  

43:13

to reacquaint and and and get closer to their Dean  and and Islam during the month of Ramadan um apart  

43:21

from reading Quran and you know and and fasting  and and doing acts that bring them closeness and  

43:26

nearness to Allah in terms of what is the one  thing you you would recommend they do uh to  

43:33

sharpen their um uh their their understanding of  of This Dean well proper knowledge to start with  

43:41

and also the spousal of the concept of solidarity  as a Muslim you are supposed to express solidarity  

43:52

toward your brethren your fellow Muslims uh who  are oppressed in the world that’s that’s part  

43:59

of the dean that cannot be postponed so how do  we come about uh uh vitalizing or U energizing  

44:11

this concept of solidarity if we want to express  solidarity toward the Palestinians how do we do it  

44:16

we need to come together sit and think listen to  experts um join hands build coalitions and see how  

44:27

we can change things for the better so that that  that solidarity is delivered somehow um but to  

44:36

uh say that there’s nothing we can do and I’m  content uh just sitting in a corner in a MOS and  

44:43

reciting the Quran which is of course beautiful  and needed and doing all the other rituals which  

44:50

is a must of course uh and then I have I don’t  have to do anything else no solidarity has to  

44:57

come uh into into the equation has to be part  of the process thank you so much for your time

45:05

today please remember to subscribe to our  social media and YouTube channels and head  

45:15

over to our website thinking muslim.com  to sign up to my Weekly Newsletter jaak

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We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NAT0, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

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