From the River to the Sea. Ibaitik Itsasora (5)

From the River to the Sea 

Ibaitik Itsasora

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1887980771178070396

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sfEx4N-gLA)

The war in Gaza has been raging for months and Israel has said it expects the battle to defeat Hamas will continue well into 2024. But, is there a way out of this conflict? Ben Knight looks at the possible solutions to the crisis and the many attempts that have come before. Editorial Note: This is a reupload of a video originally posted on 6 January 2024. The prior version misspelt the words “intifada” and “nakba”

Transkripzioa:

Intro

0:00

the two-state solution is exactly what

0:02

it sounds like two states for two

0:04

peoples one for Israelis one for

0:06

Palestinians my vision is two states

0:10

living side by side it’s not a

0:13

slogan it is the only path to Lasting

0:16

peace and it can be done as an idea it’s

0:20

been around for nearly a century it even

0:22

looked like it might be about to happen

0:25

it was the beginning of an astonishing

0:27

new era in Middle East history and

0:36

diplomacy but it didn’t Israel is

0:39

mourning the loss of prime minister

0:41

yakin assassinated by a Jewish extremist

0:44

and it’s pretty much gone backwards ever

0:45

since the middle east peace process is

0:48

in deep trouble tonight following some

0:50

of the worst unrest since the end of the

0:53

inter why is it so complicated and why a

0:57

two-state solution why not a one-state

0:59

solution like like in Northern Ireland

1:01

which was another long running violent

1:04

conflict that at times probably seem

1:06

just as

1:07

unsolvable peace agreements are not

1:09

fairy stories everyone doesn’t get to

1:10

live happily ever after what the peace

1:12

agreement did was stop the war well more

1:14

on that first let’s look at a two State

1:20

[Music]

1:22

101 to make two states you first of all

1:25

need to create the new state of

1:27

Palestine and to do that you got to work

1:30

out where its borders will go the

1:32

outside borders are already fixed you’ve

1:34

got Egypt and Jordan which have peace

1:37

treaties with Israel as well as Syria

1:39

and Lebanon which very much do

1:43

not now after World War I the land

1:46

inside those borders was known as

1:48

Palestine and it was run by the British

1:50

when they split the Middle East up with

1:52

France in the divy up of the old Ottoman

1:54

Empire now Britain had also just

1:57

declared its support for the idea of a

1:59

Jew Jewish state which did not impress

2:02

the Arabs living in

2:05

Palestine tensions turned to

2:08

violence the situation was rapidly

2:10

getting out of

2:13

control hardly a day passed without an

2:16

Arab a Jew or a British soldier being

2:19

killed in a shooting raid or a terror

2:21

bombing by 1937 Britain was looking for

2:25

a long-term solution So It produced the

2:27

first proposal to split pal

2:30

into two states a Jewish state in the

2:32

north an Arab state in the South and an

2:35

international zone for the holy sites in

2:38

Jerusalem but Britain soon realized that

2:41

to actually make that happen would mean

2:43

massive forced transfers of people and

2:46

land and especially of Arabs and they

2:49

rejected it

2:52

anyway the next attempt was after World

2:55

War II in the shadow of the Holocaust in

2:57

the newly formed United Nations

3:00

the UN petition plan also divided

3:03

Palestine into a Jewish State and an

3:05

Arab state with Jerusalem once again

3:07

carved out Jewish leaders said yes Arab

3:10

leaders once again said no but it made

3:13

no difference the UN petition plan

3:16

passed the UN General Assembly 33 votes

3:19

in favor 20 against with 13 countries

3:23

abstaining United

3:26

Kingdom

3:27

obain and one of those was Britain which

3:30

really set it apart from the rest of

3:32

Europe South America and the anglosphere

3:35

including Australia which mostly voted

3:37

yes the Arab and the Muslim World voted

3:40

no along with Greece India and Cuba the

3:44

result of the vote sent both Jews and

3:47

Arabs through the streets of Jerusalem

3:49

the Jews dancing in joy and the Arabs

3:52

rioting in

3:54

Anger the 14th of May 1948 Israel

3:58

declared its Independence and almost

4:01

immediately was invaded by Egypt Syria

4:04

Lebanon and Iraq and the Israelis call

4:08

the war of independence and Palestinians

4:11

call the NAA the Arab word for

4:13

catastrophe when hundreds of thousands

4:16

of them lost their land their homes and

4:19

became refugees when it was over Israel

4:22

had not only survived it had captured

4:24

another 5,000 square kilm of territory

4:28

Egypt now controlled G

4:30

Jordan controlled the West Bank and half

4:32

of Jerusalem now those borders are the

4:35

so-called Green Line map and it’s really

4:38

important because pretty much every

4:41

proposal for a two-state solution since

4:43

then has been based on getting back to

4:46

something like that and this changed

4:49

massively in

4:51

1967 what was called the Sixt the war of

4:55

1967 started when Israel launched a

4:57

preemptive strike against Egypt Egypt’s

4:59

Gathering forces Jordan’s King Hussein

5:02

ignored Israel’s warning to stay out of

5:04

the conflict and launched his own raid

5:06

against the half of Jerusalem already in

5:09

Israel Egypt Jordan and Syria all

5:12

attacked Israel and were all defeated in

5:15

L than against numerically overwhelming

5:18

odds the Jewish forces crushed the

5:20

Arabs when it was over Israel had taken

5:23

Gaza and the sin from Egypt as well as

5:26

the West Bank and East Jerusalem from

5:28

Jordan and most of the Goan Heights from

5:31

Syria effectively tripling the size of

5:34

territory under hisel control it would

5:36

be a long way back to the borders of the

5:39

green line map but there were times it

5:41

looked like it might actually happen the

5:44

alternative to peace in the Middle East

5:45

is a future of violence and waste and

5:49

tragedy it took until 1991 for everyone

5:52

to get in the same room and start

5:54

talking about it by now the US was

5:57

taking the lead those talks didn’t go

6:00

anywhere but at the same time there were

6:03

other secret talks going on in Norway

6:06

and they did get somewhere after nearly

6:08

half a century of hatred Israel and the

6:10

PLO today signed documents of mutual

6:13

recognition the Oslo ACC cords didn’t

6:16

create a state of Palestine but they

6:18

were an agreement to have a serious

6:21

crack at it together today with all our

6:24

hearts and all our souls we bid them

6:28

shalom Salam

6:34

peace Israel’s prime minister Yak Rabin

6:37

agreed to go back to the pre-war

6:40

borders yaser Arafat the leader of the

6:43

Palestinian Liberation Organization

6:45

agreed to renounce terrorism and to

6:47

recognize Israel’s right to exist in

6:50

peace I believe the Lord has made us

6:53

born to live in peace not in war in

6:56

spite of all the

6:58

difficulties which we had faced in the

7:00

past we had

7:02

signed and we are committed to what we

7:05

had signed the Accords also started the

7:08

process of setting up limited

7:09

Palestinian self-rule with its own

7:12

government and police force but there

7:14

were still a lot to agree on and that

7:17

included the most difficult issues of

7:21

all Palestinians wanted East Jerusalem

7:24

as their Capital would they get it what

7:27

would happen to the Israeli settlements

7:29

that were built on Palestinian land was

7:31

there a right of return for the

7:33

Palestinians who lost their land and

7:35

homes in

7:36

1948 would a state of Palestine have a

7:39

military and what guarantees could

7:41

Israel get that it could exist in peace

7:44

and

7:45

safety even so this was a huge

7:48

moment Rabin Arafat and Israel’s foreign

7:52

minister Shimon pis were jointly awarded

7:55

the 1994 Nobel Peace

7:58

Prize the the job is difficult complex

8:03

try

8:05

mistakes could topple the whole

8:08

structure and bring disaster down upon

8:12

us the following year Yak Rabin was shot

8:16

dead by an Israeli religious extremist

8:19

opposed to the OS

8:21

courts then heras in defiance of Yas

8:24

Arafat launched a series of Terror

8:27

attacks against Israel

8:29

5 years later Bill Clinton was coming to

8:32

the end of his presidency and he had one

8:34

more go he invited yasa arfat and the

8:38

new Israeli PM Edward barck to Camp

8:40

David after all these years as hard as

8:43

these issues are they don’t want to give

8:46

up but they couldn’t reach agreement on

8:49

those most difficult details the borders

8:52

security rights of Palestinian

8:55

refugees perhaps most sensitive of all

8:58

how to share jerus Jerusalem the

9:00

breakdown of those talks was followed by

9:02

one of the worst waves of Terror attacks

9:04

in Israel’s history the second

9:08

in even while that was going on Arab

9:11

countries put forward their own plan the

9:14

Arab peace initiative offered full

9:16

recognition of Israel in exchange for a

9:19

Palestinian state with its capital in

9:21

East Jerusalem once again based on those

9:24

pre-war

9:25

borders then in 2005 Israel unex

9:29

expectedly began pulling all of its

9:31

citizens out of Gaza almost immediately

9:34

Hamas took control violently and has

9:37

been in charge of Gaza ever

9:40

since a few years after that Barack

9:42

Obama was in the white house and took

9:45

his turn at trying to solve Middle East

9:47

peace the new Israeli Prime Minister was

9:50

Benjamin Netanyahu he sat in the Oval

9:53

Office opposite the US president and set

9:56

out a red line while Israel is prepared

9:58

to make generous compromises for peace

10:01

it cannot go back to the 1967 lines

10:06

Obama didn’t directly respond at the

10:08

time but 2 days later he did the borders

10:12

of Israel and Palestine should be based

10:14

on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed

10:19

swaps Obama and Netanyahu never had a

10:22

particularly good relationship but it

10:24

certainly ended far worse than it

10:28

started

10:29

Netanyahu got along a lot better with

10:32

Donald Trump Donald Trump recognized all

10:34

of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and

10:37

even moved to the US Embassy there after

10:39

Donald Trump recognized the Goen Heights

10:42

as part of Israel it should have taken

10:44

place many decades ago Benjamin nahu

10:48

named the settlement

10:58

therea

11:05

as the years have passed the prospect of

11:07

a two-state solution has only become

11:10

more remote and perhaps never more so

11:12

than

11:14

now Israel’s ambassador to the UK pretty

11:18

much ruled out a two-state solution for

11:20

good I think it’s about time for the

11:22

world to realize the Oslo Paradigm

11:25

failed on the 7th of October and we need

11:27

to build a new one and in to build does

11:30

that new one include the Palestinians

11:33

living in a state of their own is that

11:35

what it includes think the biggest

11:37

question is what type of Palestinians

11:38

are in the other side this what Israel

11:41

realized the answer is absolutely no and

11:43

I’ll tell you why

11:45

because can there beace the reason there

11:48

is no peace is is because the palestin

11:50

how without offering a state to

11:52

Palestine How can there be peace in

11:54

Israel knows today and the world should

11:56

know now the reason the O Law Court fail

11:59

is because the Palestinians never wanted

12:01

to have a state next to Israel they want

12:02

to have a state from The River To The

12:06

Sea last year Benjamin Netanyahu

12:08

returned as prime minister creating a

12:11

coalition that’s been described as the

12:12

most right-wing and religiously

12:14

conservative in Israel’s history utterly

12:18

committed to the long and controversial

12:20

practice of building Israeli settlements

12:23

in areas of the West Bank under his

12:25

government approvals for 13,000 new

12:29

housing units in the disputed territory

12:31

were either approved or Advanced

12:34

according to the Israeli Watchdog peace

12:36

now on the other side Palestinian

12:39

politics is split the West Bank is

12:42

controlled by the Palestinian Authority

12:45

that’s the government that was created

12:46

under the Oslo

12:48

Accords The Authority is largely

12:51

controlled by a party called fata it’s

12:53

the party of yasa Arafat it’s dominated

12:56

Palestinian politics for decades and the

12:58

pal Palestinian Authority is not

13:00

particularly popular amongst

13:02

Palestinians it’s got a reputation for

13:04

corruption nepotism and incompetence let

13:08

alone seemingly being unable to do

13:10

anything to improve the situations or

13:13

the lives of Palestinians in the

13:15

occupied

13:17

territories the radical Islamic

13:19

organization Hamas is claiming a

13:21

landslide victory in the elections in

13:24

Northern

13:26

Gaza in 2006 fat shocked its Western

13:30

backers and Israel by losing an election

13:33

to Hamas an islamist party that doesn’t

13:36

recognize Israel and is declared as a

13:39

terrorist organization by the US the UK

13:42

and

13:44

Australia the West responded to that

13:46

election result by temporarily shutting

13:48

off Aid to the Palestinian Authority

13:51

Israel responded by arresting dozens of

13:53

members of Hamas including some who’

13:56

just been elected to the parliament the

13:58

following year fata and Hamas literally

14:00

went to war with each other in Gaza when

14:02

it was over Hamas controlled Gaza the

14:05

Palestinian Authority had the West Bank

14:08

and that’s how it’s been ever

14:09

since and support for a two-state

14:12

solution has tanked there was a Gallop

14:15

pole of Palestinians which ended just

14:17

before the October 7th attacks it showed

14:20

support for a two-state solution at

14:23

25% now that’s down from nearly 60% a

14:27

decade ago support also dropped among

14:30

Jewish

14:32

Israelis so what’s the alternative why

14:35

not a one-state solution then well

14:38

here’s what the then us Vice President

14:39

Joe Biden said about that back in 2016

14:43

the actions that Israel’s government has

14:45

taken over the past several years the

14:47

steady and systematic expansion of

14:49

settlements their moving is toward a

14:51

one-state reality and that reality is

14:56

dangerous that reality is is riddle with

14:59

profound questions about future

15:01

political and demographic character of

15:03

Israel how would Israel remain a Jewish

15:05

state if the majority of its population

15:07

is

15:08

Palestinian and that’s why most Jewish

15:10

Israelis are also opposed to a one-state

15:13

solution so what do people need well in

15:16

2019 the Rand Corporation held 33 focus

15:20

groups in the region and they tested

15:23

five Alternatives the two-state solution

15:26

a one-state solution a

15:29

Confederation Israel annexing parts of

15:31

Palestinian territory and the status quo

15:35

now none of those options was acceptable

15:37

to a majority of Israelis and

15:40

Palestinians Israelis preferred the

15:42

status quo but Palestinians hated it it

15:45

found that the most viable political

15:48

alternative was the two-state solution

15:51

but it also found there was pretty heavy

15:53

skepticism that it would ever happen the

15:55

only group that preferred a one-state

15:57

solution over a two-state solution with

16:00

Palestinians in Gaza and even then not

16:03

by much and that’s why the two-state

16:06

solution is still regarded as the only

16:09

viable way out of this conflict so where

16:12

to from here the UAE says it will help

16:15

to rebuild Gaza but it’s put a condition

16:18

on it the progress of a us-backed

16:20

initiative towards a two-state solution

16:23

and the US has been taking a tough Aline

16:25

with Israel particularly on the issue of

16:27

settlements

16:29

advancing settlements in the West Bank

16:32

undermines the prospects of a future

16:35

Palestinian State and a two-state

16:37

solution as do any actions that

16:40

undermine stability in the West Bank

16:42

including attacks by Israel Israeli

16:45

settlers against Palestinians and

16:48

Palestinian attacks against Israelis as

16:51

President Biden has repeatedly said

16:53

those attacks are

16:55

unacceptable but if Donald Trump wins

16:57

another term in the White House that

16:59

pressure will almost certainly back

17:01

right

17:02

off Benjamin Netanyahu is deeply

17:06

unpopular with Israelis not just for the

17:08

massive security failure on October 7th

17:11

but also for his recent attempt to try

17:13

to knobble the Supreme Court which was

17:15

seen as a grasp for more

17:18

power the Palestinian Authority

17:20

president mahmur abas is 88 years

17:24

old whoever might replace both of those

17:26

leaders and whenever that happen

17:29

will face this massive challenge of

17:31

uniting their own people before even

17:34

thinking of uniting Israelis and

17:37

Palestinians Israel is a very different

17:39

country today to the secular nation that

17:42

was created in

17:43

1948 there are a lot more religious and

17:46

nationalist citizens who believe that

17:49

God literally gave all the land to them

17:52

and who hold a lot more political

17:55

power a Palestinian leader would need to

17:57

bridge that Mass massive divide between

17:59

fata and Hamas because as much as the

ooooo

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Palestinian Writer Mohammed El-Kurd on “Perfect Victims” & Israel’s Criminalization of Thought )

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7hUPcBZSD0)

We speak with the acclaimed Palestinian writer Mohammed El-Kurd on the publication day for his new book, Perfect Victims_. It comes at a time of heightened censorship and attacks on Palestinian expression in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, as well as in the United States and elsewhere. _Perfect Victims explores ongoing Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation and human rights abuses and the “impossible demand made of the Palestinians” to be sympathetic in the eyes of international observers. He says that pressure leads to “curating yourself in a way that is not offensive to the Western gaze.” El-Kurd also discusses U.S. attacks on the Palestine solidarity movement, President Donald Trump’s calls for ethnically cleansing Gaza, Israeli attacks in the occupied West Bank and his own family’s history of fighting eviction from their home in East Jerusalem.

Transkripzioa:

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

Zionism’s Endgame: a ‘Final Solution’ for the Palestinians, w/ Tony Greenstein

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaMoHSScvw4)

Following the Gaza ceasefire, Israel is already preparing for its next round of ethnic cleansing with full Western backing. Pro-Palestine activists are facing escalating repression, Trump is pushing a new ethnic cleansing plan, and Israel’s increasing resemblance to fascist regimes is impossible to ignore.

Rania Khalek speaks with Tony Greenstein, a Jewish anti-Zionist, Marxist, and anti-fascist activist, about the historical roots of Zionism, the weaponization of the Holocaust, and the imperialist crackdown on Palestine solidarity.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

why would you not compare Nazi Germany with Israel because Israel derives its

0:07

legitimation from the Holocaust it claimed to inherit the memory of those

0:12

who died in the Holocaust despite as I show in my book the actual record of the

0:18

[Music]

0:26

zyus hello everyone I’m Ria cik and this is dispatches following the ceasefire in

0:32

Gaza many remain disoriented it’s impossible to move on like there wasn’t

0:37

just a horrific live stream genocide the aftermath of which could still spiral into more genocide the people who

0:45

carried it out are still armed to the teeth they’re saying they’re going to do it again and there’s been no

0:50

accountability just impunity the parasitic imperialists who run the world

0:55

now know that they can get away with inflicting an apocalypse amidst the growing police Crackdown on Palestine

1:02

solidarity in the west Trump’s ethnic cleansing peace plan for Gaza and

1:08

Israel’s increasing resemblance to Nazi Germany the true nature of Zionism and

1:13

the historical and ideological roots of Israel’s atrocities have never been more apparent joining me to discuss this and

1:20

more is Tony Greenstein a long-standing Jewish anti-zionist Marxist and

1:25

anti-fascist activist from the UK an author of the book Zionism during the

1:31

Holocaust the weaponization of memory and service of state and Nation Tony is

1:36

among the growing number of journalists and activists facing political persecution in the UK for standing up

1:43

against genocide but before we jump into it this is just part of this episode the full

1:48

interview is available to breakthrough news members only you can become a member at

1:53

patreon.com breakthrough news and as always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a

1:59

notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show you can also donate Below on

2:06

YouTube Tony Greenstein welcome back to the show yeah hi Ria nice to be back

2:13

it’s so good to see you again to talk to you again and before we start I always I have your book near me I just want to

2:19

show it off Zionism during the Holocaust it’s so important I want to remind people that they should buy it if they

2:25

don’t already have it because it’s such a useful resource um on this topic but

2:30

we’re g we have a lot to talk about today some of which coincides with what’s in your book some of which has to

2:36

do with what’s happening in the world and also we’re going to get into some of what you’re dealing with in the UK with the political persecution but I wanted

2:42

to start with something that’s more relevant to the news at the moment and that is we have Trump and Netanyahu and

2:47

musk having this meeting uh in DC this past week when this episode comes out it might have been the week before that

2:54

we’re talking about but basically uh putting out this proposal for for um

3:02

basically like removing Palestinians from the Gaza Strip for ethnically cleansing them from the Gaza Strip he’s calling it a peace plan and sending them

3:09

to other Arab countries while they supposedly rebuild um so I mean when I

3:15

was listening to this I think probably you had a similar reaction it just seems like Trump’s plan so-called peace plan

3:21

strips away this usual liberal pretense around Zionism and it’s just kind of which is just raw ethnic cleansing at

3:28

the end of the day isn’t it because I mean zionism’s goal from the beginning was to always expel Palestinians replace

3:34

them with Jewish Shuttlers to create this majority Jewish State um and it’s

3:39

managed to do that like bit by bit in different um different waves uh and

3:44

Israeli propaganda works like an overdrive and you know with the help of all the you know corporate mainstream

3:50

media to obscure that reality and that history especially in the west so I guess Tony can you explain how Trump’s

3:57

plan is simply The Logical extent of zionism’s original project yeah well I

4:03

mean it is quite simple really I mean when I grew up and I grew up in a Zionist family we were told the Arabs

4:12

ran away they were ordered to by the Arab regimes we beg them to stay but

4:17

because of course they brought up to him BBE anti-Semitism with their mother’s

4:23

milk they didn’t want to uh and so we were forced to accept the situation as

4:29

it is now of course that’s a nonsense and Israel

4:34

spent decades pretending there was no NABA I mean they go to the extent of

4:40

reclassifying archives so people can’t get hold of any of the documents so they

4:45

deny it in the words of zipia hotelli the NABA is an Arab

4:51

lie and yet on the other hand they do all they can to reenact the naar but on

4:58

a much bigger scale as it turns out so what we’re seeing is Zionism stripping

5:06

itself of the usual the traditional lies the off fisc the pretense and so on

5:13

because if you remember when Benny Morris’s book first came out about the

5:19

birth of the Palestinian refugee problem I mean oh it was a massive controvery

5:24

Zionist denied it he was accused of being an anti-zionist which is

5:30

certainly isn’t and so on but today there is very little pretense that that

5:36

is the object the question really is whether they can get away with it yeah

5:42

uh it’s been clear from the very start that there Netanyahu smotri and the rest

5:48

of them want the G are cleared but the fact they want it doesn’t mean they will

5:54

get it uh and my own view is I think Trump’s plan is going to hit

6:02

the buffers it’s going to meet with insuperable political problems even his

6:07

closest allies realize that you know there’s no way of dressing this up as a

6:13

refugee humanitarian project which is what he’s doing oh well you know I mean

6:19

uh he’s so concerned about the demolition uh of Gaza but you’re

6:26

supplying the bombs to do the demolition you can’t have it both way so you know I

6:31

mean Trump is not if you like the best PR guy he you know he uh he is a crook

6:39

and he’ll remain a crook in every sense of the word so I don’t think they will

6:45

get away with it although Netanyahu and smotri and the rest of them for for the

6:52

zionists removing the Palestinians from Gaza is a wet dream I mean let’s be honest about that yeah that is really

7:00

what they do want and then of course you have Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner

7:05

who isn’t the brightest thing on Earth but he looks at a place and thinks oh that’s wonderful real estate development

7:12

you know never mind the two million human beings who are living there you know but this is the mentality of people

7:19

who don’t even pretend that they have a human impulse in their body I mean

7:25

that’s a problem isn’t it yeah it’s really incredible to to see just bare

7:32

like colonialism and a desire for land theft um right in your face but what’s so interesting and and ironic about it

7:39

right is you and this is something you’ve talked about a lot is these these um monarchies these Arab monarchies and

7:46

dictatorships that are client states of the Americans across the region are actually the ones who would also stand

7:52

in the way of this not because they care about Palestinians but because they’re just not going to let two million

7:57

Palestinians be ethnically cleansed into their territories and here I’m talking about Egypt and Jordan uh so the

8:04

logistics just It logistically seems impossible there’s also the fact that you know the for the past 15 months you

8:11

had the entire Western World coming together to spend billions and billions

8:16

of dollars to help Israel annihilate people in Gaza and they still weren’t able to do it so I’m not sure like what

8:23

they think is going to suddenly make that happen now um it’s just really it’s really incredible

8:30

um I don’t know if you have anything to add to that before I I well that’s right I mean uh the United States in the west

8:38

rely on Egypt and Jordan in particular as their if you like pillars of

8:44

stability in the Middle East and the own Palestine if you pour a million refugees

8:50

into Jordan you’re not going to have King Hussein there for much longer uh and if Jordan were to go it

8:58

could be the Domino of effect in reverse because you remember Vietnam was based on the Domino Theory uh because uh Egypt

9:06

could then go and if Egypt were to go then who knows what would happen to King

9:11

sa so I don’t think the Arab Kings and monarchs despicable as they are would uh

9:21

wear it for a minute because it threatens their own safety and I think the US ruling class realizes that it

9:27

hasn’t been given a great re ception politically in the United States or by the West European leaders uh even

9:37

stara you know I mean he’s if anyone is a poodle to the United States then it’s

9:42

K sta I mean you have to set just have to tell him to jump and he asks how high

9:48

but even he uh even his pathetic foreign

9:54

secretary a complete fool called David Lamy realizes this is not a starter but

10:01

the other factor is that they haven’t defeated heras yeah yeah and uh Hamas are not

10:10

going to willingly come out and say yes it’s a great plan let’s get ah go ahead with it no they’re

10:17

not the well the one thing that captured my attention that I thought was interesting was there was this Jerusalem

10:22

Post poll that found that 80% of Israelis support Trump’s plan yeah 80%

10:29

yeah yeah I mean yeah I mean Israel is an immoral State I mean

10:35

it’s uh it’s a settler State I mean I think 3% object to the plan on moral

10:42

ground yeah just 3% said this plan was immoral I mean this is a blatant open plan for removing people from their land

10:52

and I mean is it surprising maybe not but also 80% 80% so I guess you know what is this

10:59

tell us about Israeli society today not that Israeli Society has ever loved Arabs or loved Palestinians being on their land but Israeli society today is

11:07

just more unhinged than it’s ever been I suspect if you had taken a poll amongst

11:14

white South Africans about ethnic fanss and you get similar percentages I mean people always

11:21

tell me that fascism is the worst thing and in a sense setler colonialism

11:28

is actually worse when it comes to indigenous people because there’s a solid Alliance within it between the

11:34

classes I mean when I talk to traditional marxists who believe in the

11:40

working class they have these illusions that the S working class is going to Ally with the indigenous population and

11:47

it’s working fast it it’s never happened it’s never ever happened whether it’s

11:52

Ireland whether it’s Algeria whether it’s South Africa Canada or Israel

11:59

because their identity is as Jews first as part of that ethnic State and so yes

12:05

you’re going to get that 80% uh but in fact in Israel when it

12:11

comes to war it often goes up to 90 odd perc so I mean in that sense it’s less

12:18

than what you might have thought but ethnic cleansing is part of the Zionist

12:23

DNA how else could you create a Jewish state if you don’t expel the indigenous population I mean it it stands to reason

12:32

really and that was true of the left soall as well as the right and

12:37

today is there left Zionist movement anymore I mean y Gan of

12:45

the combined Merit labor party was the one advocating starvation in Gaza and

12:51

invasion of Lebanon unable yeah but generations of Western

12:59

socialist actually believe there was a difference I mean including the Dr

13:05

Gilbert hatch who you might not have heard of he’s a professor at se and his

13:10

lead of the oh i’ I’ve heard of him yeah usfi I mean he wrote and I criticized

13:16

him in my book he wrote you couldn’t descri couldn’t just say Zionism as

13:21

racism because uh you have to distinguish between Zionist and Zionist

13:26

but uh the reality is there is no difference except on tactical grounds

13:32

there is a minor difference there but even that today I mean has disappeared

13:37

in practice so which is why I mean benav is now accepted you know the kahanist

13:44

were 40 years ago Mahan was ostracized in the KET

13:50

today the third largest block is a neonati block

13:55

so it’s come round it’s Circle so and that on that note I want

14:01

to ask you because you um recently wrote uh at the top of one of your pieces on

14:07

your blog you said for those who don’t like to compare Israel and Nazi Germany my message is compare compare compare at

14:15

a time of extermination it’s important to understand just what kind of state Israel is can you elaborate on that in

14:22

what ways do you think that Israel resembles Nazi Germany Wella uh in virtually every way

14:31

I mean Hitler did not start out with a program of

14:38

extermination he started out with something called yuden rine wanting to be rid of the Jews in Germany that was

14:46

his main platform for six years that was what the Nazis aimed at

14:53

driving the Jews out of Germany it was only when they failed and they became embroiled in the war that they created

15:00

that they turned to genocide and even then there was an an interim period of

15:05

two years when they toyed with what was called the Madagascar project

15:11

so I mean you you’d have to read things like Ral hilberg’s destruction of the

15:17

European Jews to see the extermination wasn’t the product of a

15:23

single order from Hitler there’s never been found an order and I doubt that

15:29

ever will be uh it was a culmination of a process of

15:35

colonization and the Jews were in the way and what could you do with them in the end you exterminate them and that’s

15:41

been a sense the case with the Palestinians as well they’ve gone from ethnic cleansing to genocide and so why

15:50

would you not compare Nazi Germany with Israel because Israel derives its

15:57

legitimation from the h Holocaust it claimed to inherit the memory of those

16:02

who died in the Holocaust despite as I show in my book the actual record of the

16:07

Zionist I mean today every single word virtually is

16:13

about the Holocaust you know I mean October the 7th was another Holocaust

16:18

etc etc and but uh zus and rests on that

16:23

Foundation as I say it claims to inherit the memory of those who died and the

16:29

Holocaust but the reality is it inherits the memory of those who killed the Jews in the Holocaust its mentality is

16:36

exactly the same uh Rabbi is it Mary Al marlei uh the head of the yeser and uh

16:46

Jaffa uh who’s one of the key it’s a pre-military Yeshiva so the students

16:52

both learn the Torah and learn how to kill Arabs at the same time and the two

16:57

go hand in hand um but he was asked this question he gave a lecture and he was asked this

17:04

question because he was in favor of killing civilians uh I mean rabbis are

17:10

you know are bold they go where no one else does uh and he was questioned what

17:16

about the children and he said well today’s children are tomorrow’s killers and

17:23

Fighters so there there cannot be any exception to today’s Fighters were yesterday

17:30

children why do you have moral quals but and this was the exact answer

17:37

that H that himler gave in his famous speech in Posen on October the 4th and

17:42

then October the 6 the senior SS Generals in Posen B and Poland which was

17:48

played it was a tape recording was played at the Newberg trials and he said the same thing that Jewish children will

17:56

become the Avengers of their parents and so we have to exterminate them too so

18:01

Zionist mentality has come round to the same way of thinking although they they

18:07

still hold every uh three times a year memor Memorial

18:13

Services uh for the Holocaust but uh it it doesn’t affect their policy and you

18:19

see in the west uh like today’s the Holocaust Memorial Day trust in Britain

18:25

but elsewhere as well we must learn the of the holoc course they inone but don’t mention

18:34

Gaza so it it’s clearly just hypocritical account that’s why we should mention it

18:42

yeah because we inherit it because we do inherit the lessons of the Holocaust when we say never again and we don’t

18:49

selectively apply never again yeah that’s I mean that’s definitely the case and you know it’s so

18:55

it’s so horrible to think this I mean you and I were on the panel that you had me on this panel that you helped organize for Holocaust Remembrance Day

19:02

and I um and I really I learned a lot from what everybody said but as I Was preparing my remarks you know one thing

19:08

that came to mind is because of the amount of times that the Holocaust is invoked by Western warmongers to either

19:16

justify atrocities against Palestinians or even just atrocities against the third world in general like everything

19:22

is always the next Holocaust every dictator is always the next Hitler when it’s a dictator the US doesn’t like

19:27

Saddam was the next Hitler Bashar Al Assad was the next Hitler Maduro was a Hitler like everyone is Hitler and we

19:34

have to destroy and regime change any country that misbehaves because we’re

19:40

preventing a holocaust of some sort so it’s like my brain has been conditioned

19:45

to actually get scared when I hear the the memory of the Holocaust invoked which is really sad when you think about

19:52

it yeah Absolut yes absolutely I mean the Holocaust which wasn’t of course

19:58

just Jews I mean uh I mean the were whole the gypsies the

20:03

Roma uh the disabled which is where it started in inside Germany itself with

20:09

the mentally and physically handicapped and then of course the plan destruction

20:14

of 20 30 million Russians in order to take over the Bread Basket uh two to

20:22

three million poles in operation tannenburg I mean the list goes on Russian prisoners of War I mean all of

20:29

this was absolutely horrific but what lessons have they drawn from

20:34

that well I think we know uh I mean it wasn’t just Saddam who was

20:40

a Hitler I mean it started with gaml Abdul nassa he was a Hitler of the Nile

20:46

and then the lesson of really I didn’t even know that actually I didn’t know that that he was referred to wow yeah

20:53

yeah yeah I mean uh he was the first Hitler uh and uh

20:59

it went on from there then one of the main lessons from the Holocaust of course is appeasement you must never

21:06

appease a dictator so that is always used for why you go to war and that was said of course of the Iraq war that you

21:13

can’t appease a dictator it was said of NASA again in the cious War uh and so on

21:19

so imperialism draws all the wrong lessons from the Holocaust while never

21:26

actually looking at its own record during the of course so I mean I say in my book and I I only quote a few things

21:34

you know Anthony Eden worrying in the telegram to the American State Department that Hitler might turn from

21:42

extermination to Extrusion and then what would we do with all these refugees I mean fortunately

21:49

hit was never wavered but the fact is that I mean the British were worried and

21:54

the Americans were wor worried I mean so the true record of the Holocaust never

22:00

gets uh shown and we see that in uh the American Holocaust mum I don’t you’ve

22:07

ever been to it in Washington but I have yeah yeah I mean the first thing I noticed because I went there God it was

22:14

about 30 years ago was Pastor nem’s saying which was EMB braised in the

22:20

ceiling I think above the entrance you we first came for the Socialists uh the

22:28

it trade unionists Etc well Pastor neoa started it with it we first came for the

22:36

Communists but so

22:41

that they can’t even be honest but uh Israel’s done that actually with its own

22:49

I mean the Go I mean there were zionists uh amongst the left zionists uh who

22:55

fought in the Warsaw Ghetto for instance Clinger uh for one uh to Alman and

23:03

others uh when they came to Israel or when their M were printed they simply

23:08

aled them to remove all criticism of the zionists who’ urged them not to take

23:15

part in the mor or ghetto but to escape to Palestine via the rat run but of

23:22

course now today you won’t hear any of that but it is common knowledge you know

23:27

I’m I’m curious your thoughts on on something that I I often think about um with regard to everything we’ve

23:34

witnessed obviously over the last 15 months but it was taking place before this kind of you know imperialist

23:40

weaponization of of Judaism right like taking Jews from around the world and

23:45

convincing them to go basically beyond the front lines of imperialism in the Middle East in this like um you know

23:53

Unsinkable aircraft carrier called the state of Israel um and

23:59

you know obviously we make a distinction between Zionism and Judaism Judaism is a religion that’s been around for a very

24:05

long time it’s the oldest monotheistic religion Zionism is relatively new and actually comes out of Christianity

24:11

originally um and that we’ve talked about that on the show but we’ve reached a point now where you know it’s it’s sad

24:20

because you know you see like across the US you’ll see synagogues take part in

24:25

indoctrinating for Zionism and trying to convince young Jews in the US to go

24:31

visit Israel to go be in Israel to go even settle in Israel right you have all these major Jewish organizations in the

24:36

west that have made their primary made their priority defending Israeli settler

24:43

colonialism rather than representing uh people who belong to this particular

24:48

religious group and I mean you yourself grew up in a Zionist household so you have you probably have experience with

24:54

the entanglement of Zionism with Judaism in modern day Society but you know I’m just curious your thoughts on the way

25:02

Zionism has essentially morphed the oldest monotheistic religion into a weapon to the point where it’s marginal

25:10

in the west to find like a Jewish organization that is advoca they do exist but they’re up against these much

25:17

larger organizations that are zionists the ones that are advocating against it yeah I mean uh the very start I mean her

25:26

I mean Herz started it with the approached to groups which became mrai

25:31

Zionism wished to cloak itself in the symbols of the Jewish religion so it it

25:37

adopted the Star of David and made it into a major symbol which it wasn’t previously uh that has been the Zionist

25:45

strategy to combine to say in the words of Rabbi mvis the chief Rabbi here that Zionism

25:52

has been integral to Judaism for 3,000 years of course this is rewriting

25:57

history and they’re very good at it uh but when Zionism came about of course the

26:04

fiercest opponents were the Orthodox Jews and actually reformed Jews as well the Pittsburgh Declaration of 1885 of

26:12

Reform American Reform Judaism uh disavowed any idea of the return they

26:18

wanted to strip it from the prayer book uh because their main concern

26:24

was Jewish emancipation and Jewish rights and America Jewish emancipation

26:30

in Britain uh and the same throughout uh Western Europe they weren’t interested

26:36

in the return So-Cal this was a Christian idea the return to Palestine

26:42

uh you know it was a precondition of the return of uh Jesus I think to this earth

26:48

uh I mean if you are into all that end times scatological uh nonsense but

26:55

Judaism of course if like any religion adapts to its circumstances it’s true of

27:01

Islam as well I mean what’s Wabi it’s it’s an Essence and the imperialist

27:06

Distortion of Islam uh it cloaks if you like the interests in the end of

27:14

imperialism in order uh to provide it with a legitimacy it wouldn’t otherwise

27:20

have so we see today the most oddent uh

27:25

barbaric like islamis like Isis and so on uh who on the one hand sit down with

27:31

the Israelis on the other hand will cut off your hand if he so much as move that’s for women well I mean you really

27:39

don’t have any place whatsoever but this isn’t inherent in Islam in Islam developed in many directions was a you

27:46

know I mean the culture in Spain and so on I mean uh Islam was civilized when

27:53

the West you know were walking in the forest as it were uh

27:59

but the West has of course turned that round so I mean the same with Judaism

28:05

Judaism had dispensed with all the kind of blood curling threats to

28:10

non-jews uh and actually created a separate section of the tal but a

28:16

dispensation to remove the idea that you know killing a njw wasn’t as bad as

28:21

killing a Jew and so on I mean all religions develop the really you know I mean I mean I I’m a Jewish atheist so uh

28:31

uh I go I’m in the tradition of those who at ham sandwiches Jewish Anarchist

28:37

outside young to poor uh I I don’t really go with it but uh Judaism had

28:44

progressed and become more tolerable I mean religion I don’t think I mean I is

28:50

always a repository of the most backward sentiments but Judaism had Advanced I

28:56

mean reformed Judaism and so on uh today the vast majority of course of the

29:02

Jewish religion not all there are sections I mean netar some of the anti-zionists satma

29:10

kidm and there are those rabbis around uh Jewish voice for peace for instance

29:17

who do it’s an alternative uh Judaism I mean I wish them good luck I’m not sure

29:22

how far they’ll get uh because of course the West sponsors the mainstream Zionist

29:29

Judaism we saw that in London uh we couldn’t March from the BBC because we

29:36

might disturb a synagogue that no one even knew was near the root and the metropolis and police were just so

29:42

concerned with the rights of Jewish worshippers I mean it wasn’t true

29:48

uh I’m bringing out a Blog soon on the actual record the of the met when it

29:55

came to the mosites in the 30s genuine that’ll be interesting yeah yeah

30:02

yeah the accounts of people were involved in fighting the fascists I mean the Mets were riddled with fascist and

30:09

anti-semites when it really counted that’s whose side they were on so I mean

30:15

I mean Imperial not stupid every Imperial order needs a moral legitimacy

30:21

and today Jews provide that you know and it’s yeah it’s very it’s very sad

30:29

and I I wanna um I wanna on that note ask you about the just because you know

30:35

since we’re on the theme of Zion zionism’s basically attack on Judaism is how you could describe it you know I

30:42

going back to the Holocaust Remembrance Day panel that we were on I actually was attacked by these ridiculous zionists

30:49

online I don’t care but it was interesting to me they attacked me for stating um at that remembered day panel

30:55

that Zionism imposed European Jewish history onto Arab Jews stripped them of their culture and uprooted them from

31:03

their actual homelands to boost Israel’s Jewish population and so I wanted I wanted to ask you about some of the

31:10

history here because zionists aggressively deny this reality but there’s also this long history of racism

31:18

against Arab Jews within that movement um because there’s also this racial hierarchy um among Israeli Jews of

31:25

course so I guess my question for you is Tony how did early zionists view these

31:30

Arab Jews and how does that racial hierarchy persist in in Israel or among zionists today well the

31:38

original attitude to Arab Jews was probably epitomized by a guy called

31:43

Arthur rupin who was a director of the Palestine office from 1908 he isn’t very

31:49

well known although there’s an Arthur rupin I think bouevard in Tel Aviv but rupin was probably the second most

31:56

important Zionist after benorian in the priate uh yesu uh

32:03

in the Palestine mandate uh and he brought over thousands of yemenite Jews

32:10

to do the Dirty Work the hard work uh and there’s a really good

32:16

uh essay here in fact it’s a PhD thesis uh by etan Bloom on rupin from televia

32:26

diversity and Rin believed that they were a dis genic element that the Arab

32:34

Jews simply did not have the cultural level of Western Jews uh and that we

32:41

should certainly not build uh the Jewish State on them and so

32:47

he brought these yemenite workers over and he denied them anything but with the

32:52

most basic food their wages were Rousy their health facilities were nonexistent

32:59

uh and Bloom called this pathological stereotyping because 50% of them died

33:05

off and in the end they stopped coming because all the tales of returning to

33:10

the Holy Land which had been spread in Yemen turned out to be false so their

33:16

attitude to the Arab Jews was we’ll use you when you can but we don’t really want you to be part of our society now

33:24

after the Holocaust that changed I mean the only real reason why borian started

33:29

to wake up and others in the leadership to the Holocaust very late in the day

33:35

was that the fear that there would be no Jews left in Europe in order to become settlers in Israel and then have to take

33:41

these Arab Jews not because they wanted them because they had no choice uh and so after

33:47

1948 Their Eyes Were set on places like Iraq where Jews were you know in the top

33:54

tier in a sense one-third of Baghdad was Jewish it was ner City uh much like in

34:00

New York I mean uh and so they consciously set about destabilizing them

34:06

and there was a zath underground there and it’s documented I mean the best book

34:12

to read is probably aim’s book three worlds and if it’s aish schlim is a

34:18

professor or Emeritus Professor now of modern history at Oxford University uh or Marian wolfson’s old

34:26

book but it’s still very good prophets in Babylon uh and they describe what

34:32

happened how Zionist agents went in Iraq in particular but we also we think

34:39

Morocco uh and other places in the Arab world yeah I mean Egypt was a different

34:46

Affair it was called The leavon Affair which brought down mosa Sher and uh in

34:53

the end benorian as well uh where they sent agents in to Egypt to

34:59

simulate uh local people uh and started

35:04

planting bombs but they were pretty amateur and one of them got caught as his bomb was about to explode uh two of

35:12

them were hanged in the end and the whole network was uncovered it was partly to persuade the Americans that

35:18

Egypt was unstable uh but he rebounded into it was

35:23

called the laon affair they don’t discuss it now but I say it led the

35:28

removal in the end or the resignation of David benguan who was the longer serving prime minister until Netanyahu uh but in

35:36

Iraq they had aist underground it was it had been left over it had the arms from

35:42

the British Army in the Second World War uh and it’s clear that they went around planting bombs outside Jewish

35:50

cafes uh businesses and then the final straw was they threw a grenade I think

35:57

it was into the courtyard of the M shov synagogue in Baghdad uh and I think two

36:04

people died and a number were injured and this produced a stampede they’d already reached an agreement with norri

36:11

aside who was the Prime Minister that Iraq would take the wealth of the Iraqi

36:17

Jews because they were very wealthy and Israel would take the bodies uh and that’s exactly what

36:25

happened so all these flights started is going from Iraq I mean they’d already given them the option of renouncing

36:31

their Iraqi citizenship in 1950 so this was Israel strategy it needed a working

36:38

class in Palestine and there weren’t enough ashkanazi Jews but also they

36:44

wanted to climb up so they were happy to have uh a reservoir labor but when they

36:49

got to Israel it wasn’t the promised land I mean the first thing that happened when they got off the plane was

36:56

it was sprayed with dgt uh in order

37:01

to yeah yeah they were treat like Nazi stuff right

37:07

there when they say to you this is a conspiracy by you anti

37:13

seite saying that we planted bombs and so on the Iraqi Jews themselves believed

37:19

it and it was printed it was widely uh distributed Hal had reprinted uh this

37:27

was a satirical uh weekly by Yuri aeri they reprinted uh an article on uh what

37:35

happened in Baghdad the bombs in Baghdad uh most Iraqi Jews believed that

37:42

benorian had been responsible for the operations of the Zionist underground so

37:48

I mean you know even uh who is it

37:54

uh Tom segv in his book I mean it’s one of the best books

38:00

of seventh million says well clearly there was some Foundation to it because

38:05

people believe that so to now turn around and say this is all anti-semitic nons I’m sorry it just doesn’t wash

38:12

because it was yourage themselves who believed it

38:17

uhad they knew it I mean and you know some of these agents were caught and one

38:24

was hanged in Iraq as despite the fact the Iraqis bent over

38:30

backwards to exonerate them they in the end the evidence just piled up it’s so

38:35

amazing the way this uh this narrative goes by and of course you’ll have like

38:41

these Israelis who will invoke um that like they’re half Iraq or they like have an Iraqi Jewish mother or father or

38:48

something or they’re half Moroccan or something like that to be like how dare you and their whole thing which is what

38:55

they’re taught in Israel is that like basically the entire Arab world is just a bunch of like jew-hating Nazis but

39:02

it’s weird they were they became jew-hating Nazis in 1948 and after like like everything like what where was the

39:09

Jew hating Nazi behavior before Israel’s creation and also they weren’t jew-hating Nazis these zionists actually

39:15

actively played a role to try to lure Jews around the region to come to Israel to do exactly what you said which is to

39:22

become basically the working class the labor so that these like ash the elites

39:28

wouldn’t have to do the farmw work I mean that’s essentially what happened

39:33

yeah I mean when the Iraqi Jews and other Arab Jews came to Israel there was

39:39

a program of De arabization and again aish mentions he gives an incident where

39:44

his father uh comes into the street and calls to him in Arabic and he turns

39:51

bright red because this is a complete social taboo you might speak Arabic at home but you never ever speak it in

39:58

public and the same had happened with of course Yiddish which was the language of

40:03

the European Jews they consciously replaced it it was a diaspora language

40:09

and in Israel you only spoke Hebrew and when the first yish theater uh put on a

40:14

play uh there were thousands demonstrating outside it because this is you know not kosha uh you know the new

40:23

Jew didn’t speak Yiddish and didn’t speak Arabic so there was was that conscious program of De arabization so

40:31

when those like benav for instance who descended from Iraqi Jews say we have

40:36

Iraqi Jewish Heritage you may do but culturally and politically that’s link

40:42

has long been severed and of course today the Arab Jews who are still uh the

40:50

the lower classes if you like in Israel and the most racist and rabid in a sense

40:55

I mean they are the poor White of uh Israel you know the kind of trailer

41:01

trash uh you know mean they Harbor the most V anti-arab sentiment which has

41:08

been cultivated in them of course and by the state of Israel by the way like at one one point Joseph Massad makes about

41:15

that is he says you know all these um like the sort of ashkanazi elite in Israel will say oh these like these like

41:22

Arab Jews or these Mahi Jews or whatever are so like back words an ignorant and

41:28

right-wing and he he makes the point that they learned that in Israel like Israeli culture made them that way not

41:36

it wasn’t their parents who were like that it was like the children and grandchildren of the Arab Jews who you

41:42

know were pushed into Israel yeah I mean it what’s been forgotten is that

41:49

historically the Arab countries were the Refuge for Jews from Europe so when you

41:55

had the Inquisition in Spain where did they go I mean many of them went to the

42:00

North African countries uh my Moni is the greatest Jewish

42:05

philosopher uh where did he go he went to become the The Physician for Saladin for

42:12

example what happened when the Crusaders uh came to Palestine the 10th and 11th

42:18

centuries uh again they were defended by the Muslims uh so I mean historically I

42:24

mean Islam never had that ant ISM towards Jews the Christianity did but

42:31

today of course Christian Feud of anti-Semitism is forgotten because it’s

42:37

not convenient to remember it except on the streets of Jerusalem you have and then it’s you

42:44

know it’s it’s uh it is the Reger to spit at Christian

42:50

priests and theault them uh as Ben said it’s a Jewish custom so

42:57

it Sanctified uh well I think there’s another interesting aspect of this to

43:02

tie together two of the topics that we’ve been discussing and that’s the weaponization of the Holocaust as well

43:08

as like this idea of projecting European Jewish history onto Arab Jews who make

43:13

up a pretty sizable chunk of the Israeli Jewish population and and one thing you and I haven’t gotten a chance to talk

43:18

about is in your book Zionism during the Holocaust you discussed how the Holocaust is used specifically in

43:25

Israeli Society to instill race racism in Israeli Youth and I think this is super interesting because obviously this

43:31

is still the case today and it’s so different than other major Western

43:36

countries and what I mean like with that is that unlike in places like the US and the UK where the trend is that younger

43:42

Generations are often more Progressive than their Elders Israeli youth are actually more racist and right-wing than

43:50

their parents so can you talk about the role of that Holocaust Education plays

43:55

in shaping that ideology well really it starts with

44:01

yadvashem which is the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Jerusalem it was established

44:07

under the law in 1953 the Yad bashem law uh and this was to create a holocaust

44:13

museum but it was really charged with developing the whole Holocaust

44:19

narrative uh and when I say that what I mean is it was a very they rewrote Hol

44:27

hust history in many ways it was called the Holocaust and heroism at martyr’s

44:33

Museum so they magnified heroism out of all proportion and they pretended that

44:40

somehow that in order to if you like fit with the Israeli narrative that you

44:45

don’t succumb to your enemies you fight them so I mean the ghetto revolts and the word ghetto revols but there were

44:52

few and far between of course I mean it’s the same in Gaza I mean most of the population

44:58

uh couldn’t fight back against Israeli tanks I mean Hamas could because they were underground but uh and it was a

45:05

guilla struggle but most ordinary Palestinians had to flee before the tanks and the soldiers the same in

45:12

Europe uh the ghetto Jews were not generally in a position to fight back except almost with axes and their hands

45:21

so they rewrote a lot of that history but they also rewrote it in terms of the

45:27

fact that those who fought were really fighting to come to Palestine although that didn’t thought didn’t occur to them

45:33

at the time but you know you can always rewrite history uh backwards it’s quite

45:39

easy and that’s what Yad vashem did so I mean there was a number I mean there

45:44

were very few histories of the Holocaust at the beginning I mean today we have thousands of nonsense books over every

45:51

aspect you know mean many of them leave a lot to be desired to say the least but

45:57

there were two in particular was Gerard Ringer’s the final solution and Ral hilberg’s three volume I I’ve got it

46:04

here know I’ll just show it this is the classic uh he was

46:13

professor at Vermont University you probably can’t see it but it there’s three the destruction the destruction of

46:18

the European Jews that’s what it’s called yeah and uh y had bashem refused to print it because really yeah it

46:26

didn’t he attacked the idat the Jewish councils the Jewish councils which in

46:32

essence were a Nazi tool they wherever they went to wherever they established a

46:37

ghetto they established a Jewish Council to rule over like a Palestinian Authority but the Jewish version yeah

46:43

yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah they supplied the lists of who was to be deported they often rounded up the Jews

46:50

who were to be to be deported I mean Israel shahak who was one of the first

46:55

most famous is Israeli anti Zionist he was a professor at the Hebrew University

47:00

said that even during the Great action from June to September or October uh

47:07

1943 when something like 300,000 Jews were deported from the Warsaw Ghetto you

47:14

said you rarely saw a German soldier it was done by the Jewish police uh that

47:21

was the same all over I mean warsa was the biggest ghetto of course but yes I

47:27

mean and that’s why Hannah raren got into such trouble when she wrote about the akman trial in

47:33

1961 she wrote a book very famous book Amman in Jerusalem and it’s a short book

47:39

and it’s really worth reading uh based on she visited it and reported for the

47:45

New Yorker and then wrote it up into a book uh and she said without a Jewish

47:50

leadership there would have been plenty of misery but and suffering but far more

47:56

Jews would have survived the Jewish leadership was the essential tool in the hands of the Nazis and this this was

48:03

anathema I me y bashem they hated it because but why yeah why well for a

48:10

start most of the leadership of the Yen rat was that’s why okay that’s what it’s

48:17

about and also mean Zionism is a bour currenc I mean you know it it it arrived

48:23

with imperialism from the start it wasn’t a working class or revolutionary

48:28

uh movement it’s allied with British imperialism you know it wanted to Ally

48:34

it if you like I mean the people it won over in Europe were rabbis and so on I mean it it provided that leadership

48:42

because it that’s how it gravitated uh and so the zionists are very careful about

48:48

protecting the reputation of the uden Rat although the Jews had came to Israel

48:54

in 1948 and before uh were absolutely contemptuous of them and hjj Klinger who

49:01

was one of the Zionist leaders in the war or ghetto the one of the fighters uh

49:07

she came over I think it was in 1944 and she gave a speech to the hisr

49:12

the Zionist TR Union soall uh uh and she excoriated the Zionist leadership of the

49:19

Iden rat and said we have to bring them to trial Etc but her reward was that her

49:24

Diaries were so Rewritten that you had to go back to the source to

49:29

actually understand what she was saying I mean they just excised whole passages Chang them and not just her but all of

49:38

them uh all of the zist fighters and you know I say the zionists the young

49:44

Zionist not not their Elders not the parties but uh the the young zionists

49:49

you know in essence dispensed with their Zionism and they Zionism had no meaning for them so uh when they came over they

49:57

were full of anger and re wrote up their their Memoirs and writings and uh they

50:03

were changed and shab thaet S has brought out uh a two volume history of

50:10

everything I mean it’s massive it’s uh lot of un necessary detail but he

50:15

details all of that uh uh and there’s no dispute you can now get ha Klinger’s

50:23

original Diaries which is I think produced by Yad bashem so you can read it in the original but they changed the

50:30

accounts of the Zionist Fighters uh to Accord if you like with the national narrative which is of course that what

50:38

the Holocaust means is that Jews must be powerful in order that no one can uh commit another Holocaust but in the

50:44

process of course it’s led to the increased militarization and nationalism and so on they don’t draw any universal

50:52

lessons from the Holocaust because that would be taking away moral capital from

50:57

them as they Co it so I mean this you know it’s it’s interesting this hearing you break it down like that it makes me

51:03

think of I mean obviously Jews were a part of Europe it wasn’t like this was a different country or something but it it

51:10

because of the way that Nazism fascism is this kind of internalized colonialism if you will um it’s almost like just

51:17

like with the colonization of like the Americas and the colonization of Africa

51:23

and of Asia and even you know across the Middle East you have this comor class right you can’t do it without them you

51:30

can’t do it without that and this is what you’re describing as like a Jewish comor class um Europe yeah I mean it was

51:40

the Nazis selected the traditional leadership for the role they played I mean not every yuden rat I mean that

51:48

there were certain fighting yuden rat often they were the nearest the forest where the partisans were operating Minsk

51:55

is a case in particular where the uden rat actually became was the base for the uh for the resistance

52:02

as well but the Nazis simply hanged the head of the uden Rat and then killed the

52:07

next leader as well uh until they fulfilled their role uh there were a few

52:14

that was another I mean there were a few y rat who bucked the trend uh depending

52:21

on the circumstances in the ghetto itself uh but by and large

52:27

they collaborated you know people like K rowski and lods uh you know I mean was a

52:33

very pant tool I mean in the hands of the Nazis I mean he selected and he sent the children first

52:40

to the G gas Chambers and a sense uh he didn’t do him much good because in the

52:46

end he followed them uh in fact he was killed on the train by uh member Jews uh

52:53

in the train because of what he’d done but uh they were many tyrants uh rowski printed a stamp with

53:02

him riding a horse around the ghetto I mean they they had delusions of grand

53:08

uh in Warsaw I mean the the yiden rat really were an instrument of the Jewish

53:15

bouris in a sense I mean they sent the poor to work for the Nazis for uh a

53:20

pittance literally uh uh and that meant that the Richer Jews escaped of course

53:26

end uh they all died but in Warsaw uh

53:32

the resistance the first Target of the resistance was the uden rat that they killed them and the Jewish police and as

53:39

shahak said because he was a Child Survivor of the warsa ghetto if they hadn’t done that if they hadn’t killed

53:47

the collaborators there would not have been a resistance and he was saying that in the context of Palestinians also

53:55

killing their collaboration RAC I mean without it’s a pretty normal thing it’s a pretty normal thing to do actually

54:01

historically speaking yes I mean yes I mean uh treason always used to be a

54:07

capital offense in Britain but it’s denied to the to the armed resistance

54:12

against imperialism and yes I mean it makes sense that uh well I mean Hamas

54:18

has done the same it’s killed coporates it’s just not it’s not unique it’s definitely not unique especially when it

54:24

comes to uh anti-colonial struggle or any actually just historically speaking it’s not unique but Tony I want to I

54:30

want to ask you because I want to make sure we have time for this because it’s very important um I want to ask you

54:36

about the political persecution that you’re experiencing right now um and I want to just quote you you recently said

54:42

in the eyes of the law resisting genocide is a greater crime than committing it so can you tell us what

54:48

has happened to you in the UK what were you arrested for what are the charges you’re facing what the hell’s going on

54:54

well it’s a good question the prosecution hasn’t diverged what it’s re relying on at the moment they have

55:01

certain time period up to April to disclose but I was arrested on December

55:08

the 20th 2023 at 7 in the morning by the police

55:14

who told me I was being arrested for a tweet I posted a month ago you might imagine that at 7 a.m. in the morning I

55:22

would not remember even what tweet but

55:28

I don’t have a photographic memory in that sense uh it was a Zionist who said uh

55:35

challenged people just say word three words I support Hamas and I said no I

55:42

support the Palestinians but as part of the resistance and of course I support Hamas

55:48

uh and when the police cross examined me later in the day I said well when it

55:54

comes to fighting the Israeli genocides I would support the Devil Himself I

56:01

doesn’t mean that was the case but I understand

56:07

and I was originally charged under section 121a of the terrorism Act

56:12

2 with or with and it’s expressing an opinion or belief which is supportive of

56:20

a prescribed organization but it now appears that I’m being charged in the different section still section 12 of

56:28

inviting support for Hamas uh but it’s of course a nonsense because what

56:33

they’re doing is prescribing organizations they don’t like and saying they are terrorists

56:39

now you can read my blog I have a number of Articles critical of Hamas in terms of

56:45

their social another policy I don’t think Hamas is a revolutionary

56:50

organization uh you know when people demonstrated and supported the overthrow Mubarak they actually cleared the

56:58

streets I mean Hamas comes from the the Muslim Brotherhood I mean they’re a

57:03

conservative groups so politically I don’t support them uh

57:08

if anything I would support the pflp the popular front for the liberation of Palestine but when it comes to the

57:15

resistance and Hamas clearly are not terrorists I mean we understand what

57:21

terrorism is it’s when the Manchester bombing here when bomb is set off and 22

57:28

young kids die at a a concert or the B Clan attack in Paris or any other

57:34

similar atrocity that Isis or Al-Qaeda committed but here’s the irony of course

57:40

that the West created Al-Qaeda and Isis so the terrorism we’re fighting we

57:46

actually have created uh but what they’ve done is they’ve applied terrorist label to the resistance and

57:53

that’s not new I mean the Nazis turn French Resistance terrorists or the poish resistance I mean you know and the

58:02

British term the IRA terrorist but what the British didn’t do was Outlaw and

58:07

prescribe the political wing of the IRA which is shin faine which is now the major party in the north of Ireland if

58:15

they had done there would have been no good Friday agreement H and by

58:20

prescribing Hamas not only its poit military but its political Wing what

58:26

Essence saying is the whole struggle of resistance against genocide is itself illegal if you enjoyed this episode and

58:33

want to hear the rest you can access it by becoming a breakthrough news member at patreon.com breakthrough newws

oooooo

We Basques do need a real Basque independent State in the Western Pyrenees, just a democratic lay or secular state, with all the formal characteristics of any independent State: Central Bank, Treasury, proper currency, out of the European Distopia and faraway from NAT0, maybe being a BRICS partner…

Ikus Euskal Herriaren independentzia eta Mikel Torka

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