From the River to the Sea: Ibaitik Itsasora (39)

Ibaitik Itsasora

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1887980771178070396

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Ruby @MarupeneM

Executive director Ali Abunimah gives us an update on some significant revelations about his imprisonment in Switzerland last month and the legal steps he’s taking to fight back against this brazen attack on free speech.

This is a segment from The Electronic Intifada’s livestream on day 33 of the Gaza ceasefire. Ali Abunimah, Nora Barrows-Friedman, Jon Elmer and Asa Winstanley were joined by historian Ilan Pappé.

You can watch the full show here: https://youtube.com/live/4ZJx-FDrsK4

Transkripzioa:

0:00

there’s a couple of updates as people

0:03

know uh at the end of January I went to

0:06

Switzerland at the invitation of some

0:08

local groups there to do a couple of

0:11

teachings about Palestine these were

0:13

going to be just very chill events one

0:16

on a Saturday and one on a Sunday and uh

0:19

as I was on my way to the first one on

0:22

that Saturday which was the 25th of

0:25

January I was abducted off the street by

0:28

four underc a

0:30

cops handcuffed thrown into the backseat

0:34

of a an unmarked car and driven straight

0:37

to prison where I was kept for three

0:40

days until I was taken to the airport in

0:43

handcuffs and expelled from Switzerland

0:46

and it was a shocking and extraordinary

0:50

experience and um I haven’t said a whole

0:54

lot more about it since then but there

0:56

are some new

0:57

Revelations that uh we can share and in

1:00

fact ASA did a um well before we show

1:03

asa’s article uh let’s look at uh

1:07

tomorrow we can show the tagas

1:11

Ana uh just a couple of days in the

1:15

tagus Ana which is one of the leading uh

1:18

newspapers in Switzerland I don’t know

1:21

if it’s the New York Times or the

1:23

Washington Post of german-speaking

1:24

Switzerland but it’s one of them uh and

1:27

they have this article that reveals that

1:32

the federal Authority Switzerland is a

1:34

federal country like the United States

1:37

like Canada so you have the central

1:39

federal government and then you have the

1:42

cantons which are like the states and

1:44

the Canton of zerri are the ones who

1:49

had applied for me to be banned from the

1:53

country on the basis of all sorts of

1:56

allegations which we can get into in a

1:58

minute and what this reveals is that the

2:04

federal government the federal police

2:07

and the federal intelligence service and

2:11

the federal migration office all

2:13

rejected that request and maybe now um I

2:17

don’t know maybe ACA you w to we can put

2:20

aca’s article on on and ACA you can talk

2:23

a bit more about what you learned from

2:25

the documents which we received I’ll say

2:29

more about legal process in a minute but

2:32

that we received from um the uh Swiss

2:37

authorities yeah yeah so there’s as you

2:41

mentioned there ear there was this uh

2:42

Swiss newspaper story which uh covered

2:47

some of this in in German in Switzerland

2:51

and uh you know I dived into the files

2:54

and uh it’s quite interesting to see I

2:56

mean it was it was fascinating insight

2:58

into the internal process of the Swiss

3:02

authorities and basically what you see

3:05

in these documents in summary is a a

3:08

conversation between

3:10

the The Canton of Zurich the police

3:14

authorities from the cown of Zurich and

3:17

the Swiss Federal Federal authorities

3:20

and the way the process uh works and we

3:24

saw is that uh the the Zurich police

3:28

asked the

3:30

authorities to issue the ban I I suppose

3:33

they were sort of expecting it to be a

3:34

rubber stamp operation U but it didn’t

3:37

really go that way at all where the the

3:41

the the Zurich cantonal police asked the

3:45

um the Swiss federal police to issue

3:48

this ban and the Swiss federal police

3:52

then went to uh Sam semem the German

3:56

acronym for the Swiss Swiss immigration

4:00

Authority and also to the NDB which is

4:03

uh I don’t know if it’ be the Swiss

4:05

equivalent of the FBI or the CIAA but

4:08

it’s certainly an intelligence

4:11

organization um the Swiss in federal

4:13

intelligence organization and uh they

4:17

then communicated both of those entities

4:19

communicated back to the Swiss federal

4:22

police that they did not support the a

4:25

ban on on an Abu n and they um

4:30

uh the the Swiss federal police itself

4:33

as well did its own assessment of you of

4:35

your tweets um because this was what it

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was based on um and they essentially

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they said in a nutshell you know you

4:44

know in a very sort of German way that

4:47

um to go to hell basically in a much

4:50

more in a very polite way saying you

4:52

know there’s no there’s no basis for

4:55

this um in a nutshell and then

5:00

saying explicitly saying what what the

5:03

things that you’ve argued um were within

5:06

Free Speech although they were kind of

5:08

implying they didn’t necessarily agree

5:10

with you they said you were in your

5:12

within your free speech speech rights

5:14

and notably as well they questioned one

5:17

of the main assertions of the the Swiss

5:20

federal police which was that the zerich

5:23

police sorry yes the the Swiss the Swiss

5:26

federal police questioned one of the

5:29

main assump

5:30

of the the Zurich cantonal police bit

5:33

confusing

5:35

um that on what the the Zurich uh can

5:40

cantonal police said in in their claims

5:43

about you was that uh you quote unquote

5:47

presumably don’t

5:49

differentiate between uh Jews zionists

5:52

and Israel whereas you know the anyone

5:55

who knows you and your work and your

5:57

tweets knows that the opposite is

5:59

actually the case and the Swiss uh

6:02

federal police said that this assumption

6:07

must be

6:08

questioned yeah well they they actually

6:11

went even further I mean just a little

6:14

bit more background on this

6:16

so it it

6:18

was really an extraordinary turn of

6:21

events and just to give people the

6:23

timeline very

6:25

briefly on I arrived in Switzerland on

6:29

January 24th which was a Friday on

6:32

January 22nd so two days before I

6:36

arrived the Zurich cantonal police sent

6:39

this memo to the federal police and it

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was this assessment they’d written two

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or three

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pages uh with quoting many of my tweets

6:52

and saying that look how terrible this

6:55

person is from his tweets and if he

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speaks in land it’s going to incite

7:01

people to carry out acts of violence and

7:03

they even use the term Jihadi terrorism

7:06

which is just

7:08

incredible and so that was on January

7:11

22nd the next day January

7:15

23d the federal police responded in just

7:18

the way that ASA described they

7:21

responded in writing and we have all

7:23

these documents we’ve gotten them

7:25

through the discovery

7:26

process and they say

7:31

the federal police the federal

7:33

intelligence service and the federal

7:35

migration office see no basis for an

7:40

entry ban and there’s this extraordinary

7:43

quote in the document from

7:46

the federal police at the end of it they

7:50

say

7:55

um it is the task of the state not

7:58

merely to tolerate the guaranteed

8:01

pluralism of opinions but to protect it

8:03

as long as no concrete violent extremist

8:06

activities threaten the security of

8:08

Switzerland no entry bans can be issued

8:11

under the authority of fedpa so that’s

8:14

what they said in the response to the

8:16

Zurich cantonal police that Ali abon you

8:19

may not like what he says but he’s

8:21

exercising his right to free speech and

8:24

our job is to protect it that was on

8:27

January

8:28

23rd I arrived in Switzerland on January

8:31

24th my flight got in around uh just

8:35

before 2: p.m. in the

8:37

afternoon and then what happened next

8:40

ASA that

8:42

day yeah this is one of the really

8:45

interesting aspects of these files and

8:49

something that was I actually suspected

8:51

while it was happening and uh was in the

8:55

process of happening I mean after we saw

8:57

the nzz article which is another Swiss

9:00

newspaper before you were arrested which

9:03

was kind of a hit job on you um I

9:06

suspected that um they would try to ban

9:09

you after the fact they like a sort of

9:12

post a retrospective ban on you and

9:15

trying to ban you from entry after you

9:17

entered and these documents that we uh

9:21

got do confirm that because uh we don’t

9:25

know exactly when the

9:28

ban uh was issued but we do know that um

9:33

that that uh we do have an email from

9:38

so the

9:41

Swiss so to continue the story of what I

9:43

was saying before the Swiss um after

9:48

this the Swiss Federal authorities

9:49

rejected the cantonal police’s request

9:51

for the ban on you

9:54

um the Swiss the the Zurich cantonal

9:58

police went back to the federal

10:00

authorities the next day in an email and

10:03

they claimed that um you know they

10:06

basically they they were kind of

10:07

reiterating their request even though it

10:10

had been rejected and they said in an

10:11

email uh to the federal police that um

10:15

your speaking event was quote likely to

10:18

stir up listeners or the local

10:19

environment to such an extent that a

10:21

severe risk to security might be

10:23

concretely caused by misled individuals

10:26

we request once more that an entry ban

10:29

against Ali Abu be issued um but we know

10:33

for a fact because that email is is

10:36

dated and you know emails always have a

10:38

time stamp on them that request came

10:40

after you’d landed in the country and

10:43

they may not have they may not have

10:44

realized this but we know so so

10:46

therefore logically the ban must have

10:48

come come after that yes and the the The

10:52

crucial thing here is that fed Paul

10:55

reversed its decision from a day from

10:58

just a day earlier the federal police

11:01

reversed its decision from the a day

11:03

earlier and they issued the entry ban

11:07

based on exactly the same Memo from the

11:11

Zurich cantonal police that the federal

11:13

police had rejected there was nothing

11:16

new in the Zurich police’s second

11:19

request it was the same material that

11:22

fed Paul had rejected and this is what

11:26

we need to find out how did this happen

11:32

yes and the tagus aner the Swiss

11:35

newspaper points to the involvement of

11:38

this uh senior Zurich politician Mario

11:42

far we can put the grey Zone story on to

11:45

remind people tomorrow Mario far is an

11:48

elected politician he is the head of

11:52

security for the Zurich Canton so

11:54

basically like the interior Minister for

11:57

the Zurich Canton and as the grey Zone

12:00

reported he is a fanatically pro-israel

12:03

politician so the possibility here is an

12:07

and we’re going to need to find this out

12:09

through the legal process that there was

12:11

blatant political

12:14

interference

12:16

basically to get the police to abduct a

12:21

journalist from the street just because

12:24

a politician didn’t like what they say

12:26

and this sort of thing may happen in

12:28

countries all around the world but it’s

12:30

not supposed to happen in Switzerland

12:32

and if that’s what happens there is

12:34

going to if that’s what happened there

12:36

is going to have to be uh accountability

12:39

yeah well ali um what’s the status of

12:43

the legal action uh that you’re taking

12:47

right so I am taking legal action on a

12:50

number of fronts and what I can tell

12:52

people is that we have already filed our

12:55

first appeal and this is the appeal

12:59

against the detention itself the

13:02

imprisonment which is

13:05

um

13:07

unlawful based on Swiss law uh based on

13:11

the Swiss Constitution and the European

13:13

convention on human rights because this

13:16

was an attack on uh the right to Liberty

13:20

the right to free expression free

13:23

expression and the right to the freedom

13:24

of Association of Swiss citizens who

13:27

were not allowed to hear someone one

13:29

they had invited to come to the country

13:33

and so that’s the first appeal we filed

13:37

we’re F filing more appeals in coming

13:41

days that have to do with the entry ban

13:43

that was issued after I entered

13:45

Switzerland and the expulsion order that

13:47

was issued the next day and all of this

13:51

is going ahead in the Swiss courts and

13:55

there are going to be other cases that

13:57

will be filing the

13:59

to use theas word uh more in the line of

14:03

offensive legal action to find out the

14:06

truth and to stop this happening again

14:10

this is the point of this legal action

14:12

for me I’m not going to really get much

14:16

out of it uh it’s it’s not like there’s

14:18

going to be you know

14:22

huge I know my lawyers don’t like me

14:24

saying things this don’t prejudge

14:25

anything but for me the key point is

14:28

account ability and to protect the right

14:31

to free speech and to stop this

14:33

happening again because it’s happening

14:35

in a context where we’re seeing uh a

14:38

Crackdown across Europe and North

14:41

America we know how asus’s home was

14:44

raided his devices were confiscated

14:47

we’ve seen other activists and

14:48

journalists being arrested questioned

14:51

we’ve talked about Richard medhurst who

14:54

recently again once again found himself

14:57

in Austria

14:59

uh being um detained and questioned and

15:03

having his devices uh confiscated by

15:07

police in Austria apparently possibly on

15:09

behalf of the British government uh

15:12

we’ve seen um this happening in Canada

15:17

where today Eve angler who is a

15:21

well-known Advocate has written for the

15:23

electronic Ina as being charged with

15:25

absolutely ridiculous things basically

15:28

because of his statements against the

15:30

genocide in Palestine so for me taking

15:33

legal action is about defending our

15:35

Collective right to free speech and to

15:37

stop this happening we have to make

15:41

politicians or officials who abuse their

15:45

power to censor us and to stop us

15:48

talking about Palestine we have to hold

15:50

them accountable and make there be a

15:52

price otherwise they’re going to keep

15:54

doing it yeah um and there is a way that

15:58

our uh listeners and viewers and readers

16:01

can also get involved um can you talk a

16:05

little bit about that well a lot of

16:07

people have asked me so I I I want to

16:09

talk about this um we have

16:15

uh you know legal action costs money

16:18

people know that and uh so we have set

16:23

up a crowdfunding site where people can

16:25

find out how they can help and it’s

16:28

there it’s on the site called go get

16:31

funding I just want to show it to you so

16:33

that you know what it looks like but

16:35

Tamar if you go back to ASIS

16:38

article it is linked in Asus article

16:41

there’s just an informational link and

16:43

if it’s in the bottom paragraph uh or

16:46

the bottom section there you can see it

16:48

says a crowdfunding campaign has been

16:51

started to help support aonis legal

16:53

action and I just want to show you how

16:55

to get to that in Asus article if you’re

16:57

interested in find out more um if you

17:01

want to take part in that you can it’s

17:03

not the same link as the Donate Link at

17:06

the top of the electronic inter page on

17:08

the bottom you’d have to go to the link

17:11

in the text of the article I just want

17:13

to point that out uh so if you’re trying

17:16

to find that way because these things

17:18

are separate and

17:21

uh the this is this is a separate

17:25

fundraising campaign from the El you

17:27

know the ordinary support we get for the

17:30

electronic intifa but for me this is

17:32

about standing up for free speech

17:36

accountability making them pay a price

17:38

for this grotesque abusive power that

17:42

was used against me but will will be

17:45

used against others if it’s not

17:47

challenged and because Switzerland is a

17:50

signatory to the European convention on

17:52

human

17:54

rights and that is part of Swiss law

17:57

these cases as I understand it do have

18:01

precedential or or precedent setting uh

18:05

potential for the whole of Europe and if

18:08

we don’t win in the lower courts and my

18:11

lawyers believe that we have good cases

18:13

which is why we’re proceeding we

18:15

wouldn’t proceed if we didn’t think they

18:17

were good but if we don’t Prevail in the

18:19

lower courts we could prent potentially

18:22

go all the way to the European Court of

18:25

Human Rights and I’m determined to

18:27

pursue this again it’s not about me it’s

18:30

about free speech on Palestine I’m

18:32

determined to hold them

18:35

accountable thank you uh on behalf of

18:38

all of us and um we’re so glad uh that

18:42

you’re that you’re back safe and sound

18:45

and um you know taking on taking on this

18:49

really important fight um I think that

18:52

you know a lot of the intention in um

18:56

these you know accelerating attacks

18:59

against journalists um is is to make uh

19:04

other journalists uh

19:06

self-censor it’s to make them back down

19:09

on talking about Palestine and it’s to

19:12

instill fear um and uh and so I’m glad

19:16

that that um that you know that that

19:19

hasn’t affected you in that way and that

19:21

it’s actually done the opposite uh which

19:24

usually happens in these cases yeah and

19:28

it’s just to me I see this as the the

19:31

this is happening across universities

19:34

it’s happening governments are doing it

19:37

ASA is fighting back in the UK which is

19:40

fantastic I’m fighting back in

19:43

Switzerland and we will we will stand

19:46

our ground on this no matter where no

19:48

matter how we will stand our ground and

19:51

we know that we have everyone behind us

19:54

and that’s what gives us the strength to

19:57

to fight this fight

19:59

because if they stop People Like Us

20:03

speaking out PE people like our many

20:06

viewers and readers from speaking out

20:08

then they’ve won you know they they have

20:10

won because the BBC the New York Times

20:14

the CBC all the official media they’re

20:17

not going to focus on the things we

20:19

focus on they’re not going to debunk The

20:22

Lies We debunk they’re not going to

20:23

bring the truth out about October 7th

20:26

they don’t want us doing any of that

20:29

that is why they are going after us

20:31

they’re going after us because we are

20:33

effective and because we are reaching

20:35

people and they need to know that we’re

20:38

not easy targets we will stand and fight

20:49

[Music]

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

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“There WILL Be Consequences!” Dr Hanan Ashrawi Warns Western Leaders Over Participating in Genocide

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9xtK–Uup8)

In an exclusive interview with Palestine Deep Dive, esteemed Palestinian politician, activist and scholar, Dr Hanan Ashrawi, reacts to Israel’s ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Gaza, following Benjamin Netanyahu’s deliberate breaking of the ceasefire.

Speaking to former UN staffer and journalist, Mark Seddon, Dr Ashrawi, weighs in on the West’s role in this campaign of extermination and focuses in particular on the role being played by Keir Starmer’s Labour Government, saying,

“Exactly I think accountability should be applied across the board; it is not just Israel that is carrying out a genocide, those governments that are continuing to supply it with weapons and continuing to allow it to use its bases, like the British base in Cyprus, those governments that are supplying it with intelligence like the British government. So these people are definitely complicit in the genocide itself, and they cannot escape it. Sooner or later they will have to be held to account. There will be consequences, they cannot continue with this disguising reality and attempting to circumvent what is happening and so on. This complicity now is very clear. And they have to understand, that they will be considered part of a genocide that took place. And right now they might be able to intimidate, maybe, the ICC or the ICJ but I think at one point they will see themselves also held accountable before these international courts”

She also has words of warning for the leaders of the Arab World, who continue to fail the Palestinian people in this their hour of desperate need. 

Interview recorded Sunday 23rd March 2025.

Transkripzioa:

0:00

Israel recently committed the largest

0:02

child massacre in its history the

0:05

numbers are not reported elsewhere in

0:07

the Israeli media and if they are it’s

0:10

always scandalously

0:13

mitigated now these are not my words

0:15

these are from the Israeli newspaper

0:18

heret this week Netanyahu unilaterally

0:21

broke the ceasefire in Gaza in fact

0:24

Israel has continued to kill

0:25

Palestinians throughout the ceasefire

0:28

and no one serious believ that Netanyahu

0:31

had the remotest intention of moving to

0:34

the second stage of that ceasefire and

0:37

had Hamas killed seven Israelis inside

0:40

of Israel this week it would have been

0:43

one of the biggest stories in the world

0:45

and it would have been all over the

0:47

media but Israel killed 700 Palestinians

0:52

this week including almost 200 children

0:55

and yet there’s little outrage from our

0:57

politicians or from our media it barely

0:59

makes the inside pages of the newspapers

1:02

and the BBC’s initial coverage might

1:05

just as well have come from a speak your

1:07

weight machine I’m joined today by our

1:11

special guest Dr Hannan

1:13

ashrawi uh Hannan thank you so much for

1:15

joining us is the Israeli foreign

1:19

minister Israel Catz this week said to

1:23

camera the first sinoa destroyed Gaza

1:28

and the second sinir will bring its

1:30

complete ruin soon the evacuation of the

1:33

population from combat zones will resume

1:36

and what follows will be far more

1:38

severe can you tell

1:41

us Hanan what sinoa

1:45

means well he’s referring of course to

1:48

Hamas leadership and so this is very

1:50

clear I mean they’re two brothers and

1:53

they they killed most of Hamas

1:55

leadership anyway uh military leadership

1:58

but this is more of a reflection on the

2:01

way not just Israel cats think but the

2:04

whole uh Israeli body politic the whole

2:08

Israeli government extreme right-wing

2:11

Coalition fascist Coalition in Israel

2:14

they constantly try to blame uh the

2:17

other side they blame the victim that

2:19

it’s sinir who destroyed Gaza and the

2:23

other one will and and in in particular

2:27

this guy is in cats I mean he combines

2:29

both ignorance and violence this violent

2:33

urge and the uh in a sense an attempt to

2:37

prove himself that he can be even more

2:40

extreme and more fascist than Netanyahu

2:42

and Ben and the the others so this

2:45

statement is an attempt at obfuscation

2:49

at changing the the whole discourse at

2:51

blaming the other at avoiding

2:54

responsibility but also at

2:57

legitimizing the genocide that that has

3:00

been resumed that is ongoing and this is

3:03

the danger not only don’t they have a

3:05

critical distance from themselves and

3:07

what they’re doing but they are also

3:10

attempting to superimpose on the world

3:13

conscience or perceptions the fact that

3:16

not only are the Palestinians demonized

3:18

and dehumanized and so on but that it is

3:22

normal uh to blame the Palestinians and

3:25

for Israel to pursue its Carnage and uh

3:30

ethnic cleansing and genocide in

3:32

Palestine hanen can I ask you what do

3:34

you think that Netanyahu cats benav

3:38

smotrich or the rest of them have plan

3:41

for the Palestinian people if they are

3:44

allowed to get away with it well you

3:46

don’t need to extrapolate you know or to

3:49

try a critical analysis because they say

3:52

it outright they’ve been saying this all

3:55

along that they want first of all they

3:58

want to destroy the chances of any

4:00

Palestinian state with sovereignty uh

4:03

Etc or

4:04

self-determination but two they want to

4:06

expand Israel to expand to take over all

4:09

of Palestine I.E greater Israel would be

4:11

superimposed on all of Palestine hence

4:14

this plan for the ethnic cleansing of

4:17

Palestine for the genocide for the uh uh

4:21

and demographic Engineering in Palestine

4:24

how to get rid of as many Palestinians

4:27

as possible and to Annex as much land as

4:30

possible particularly in the West Bank

4:33

now in Gaza of course the plan is to

4:35

evacuate Gaza and they found their

4:38

partner to expel all the Palestinians

4:40

from Gaza and they found their partner

4:42

in Trump and they keep saying now they

4:44

are implementing the Trump plan but Mark

4:48

let me make this clear that the the

4:51

fundamentalist Zionist agenda from the

4:54

beginning has been to get rid of the

4:57

Palestinians I mean from the beginning

5:00

as Elan Pap said the ethnic cleansing of

5:02

Palestine began began not just in 48 but

5:05

even before 1948 and even before in the

5:09

sense that they wanted to expel the

5:12

Palestinians physically the indigenous

5:15

people from their historical Homeland

5:18

and to bring in people from

5:21

outside uh provided they are Jewish in

5:24

order to serve the Zionist agenda and to

5:28

create not only a demographic imbalance

5:31

but also to create a Jewish State on the

5:34

land of Palestine and this has been in

5:37

the making for a long time it was before

5:41

implemented gradually even sometimes

5:43

below the radar and so on with land the

5:46

annexation and expansion and the

5:48

building of settlements and the

5:50

importing of settlers and so on now it

5:53

has you know it is clear and plain sight

5:57

now it has taken on proportions

5:59

magnitudes that are Way Beyond any you

6:03

know conscience to Encompass in the

6:06

sense that the ethnic cleansing of Gaza

6:09

is taking on the all the dimensions of

6:11

the crime of genocide according to the

6:16

convention and at the same time the land

6:19

theft and so on war crimes and crimes

6:21

against humanity are ongoing and they

6:24

say it openly no Palestinian State no

6:27

two-state solution and

6:30

that this is all historical Biblical

6:34

land that was granted to the Jews and

6:36

therefore they are mixing this

6:38

fundamentalist

6:40

ideology with a a geopolitical plan to

6:45

erase Palestine and to replace it with

6:49

uh Israel and this is ongoing the Eraser

6:52

of Palestine is taking on many different

6:54

shapes many different Expressions

6:57

whether the history or the culture and

6:59

so on but now it is in terms of the

7:02

people themselves well Hanan as you know

7:04

since early March Israel’s cut off all

7:07

food all medicine or fuel or electricity

7:10

and other supplies to the Gaz to gaza’s

7:12

population constitutes a very clear

7:14

breach of international law resumed its

7:16

deadly air strikes and for good measure

7:19

managed to blow up the only cancer

7:21

hospital in Gaza uh the other day um

7:25

reappointed Israeli cabinet minister

7:28

itamar Ben said on wedes day of the

7:31

Palestinians annihilate smash eradicate

7:35

erase Crush shatter burn beuel punish

7:38

ruin Crush annihilate this is what he

7:41

said Britain’s foreign secretary David

7:43

Lamy responded to the Israelis by saying

7:47

that it is difficult to see how Israel

7:50

denying Aid to Gaza can be compatible

7:53

with international law but he was

7:55

immediately slapped down as you know by

7:57

the prime minister kir stama and he then

8:00

backed down on his statement Hanan what

8:03

is your message for Kia

8:07

starma I don’t have enough time on the

8:10

show to tell you my message to K starma

8:13

uh Frankly Speaking I think the the

8:16

self-serving uh political uh agendas and

8:19

ideologies of the West particularly in

8:22

the becoming an appendage subservient to

8:25

American uh policies and uh American um

8:30

Imperial stand that this is undermining

8:35

not just the chances of any type of

8:38

peace or stability in the region not

8:40

just uh betraying Palestinian rights not

8:43

just violating international law

8:46

international humanitarian law and uh

8:49

also the the multilateral system and the

8:52

judicial global system they are also

8:55

undermining their own standing and their

8:58

own credibility and their own own

8:59

Integrity because people see this I mean

9:02

look governments are taking such

9:05

opportunistic and

9:07

dishonest uh positions and yet the

9:11

public everywhere publics are

9:13

questioning their own governments they

9:16

know more than their governments or or

9:18

they are challenging the uh policy

9:21

decisions of their governments and the

9:23

pum or the language or the gaslighting

9:25

of the leadership and it is important

9:28

for leaders to understand ultimately

9:31

that they are going to be held to

9:34

account that you cannot hide the the

9:38

truth anymore that you cannot get away

9:41

with uh being complicit within isra’s

9:44

genocide and and the Carnage taking

9:47

place in in Gaza and the words that you

9:51

heard from BV and others this is the

9:53

agenda this is taking they are not just

9:55

words there are actions taking place in

10:00

broadside and everybody is seeing this

10:03

and yet they’re playing you know verbal

10:06

games now and saying yes or no and maybe

10:09

a violation of international law it’s a

10:12

violation of every piece of every

10:15

concept every modal uh Norm in the world

10:18

and yet they are allowing them to

10:20

continue and they are continuing with

10:22

their support including weapons

10:25

intelligence bases and so on I I think I

10:28

mean it’s it’s very very clear from all

10:30

that we’ve heard from the international

10:32

institutions that know about these

10:33

things from Palestinians from people

10:36

right around the world about

10:37

international law being uh broken

10:39

repeatedly and a genocide effectively

10:42

taking place and the British government

10:43

acknowledged that with David lamy’s

10:45

statement that we talked about just a

10:47

specific question I don’t know if you’re

10:48

able to say something anything about

10:50

this Hanan but we know that RAF act

10:54

criteria in Cyprus has been used as a

10:56

hub for military operations and for

10:58

surveillance

11:00

of Gaza we understand that that

11:02

surveillance by the RAF continued during

11:04

the ceasefire and I wonder if it is the

11:07

case that British service Personnel have

11:10

been instructed to carry out orders that

11:13

may be illegal under international

11:17

law what comeback again should there be

11:20

for a British government that has

11:21

sanctioned this sort of behavior yeah

11:25

exactly I think accountability should be

11:27

applied across the board it is not just

11:30

Israel that is carrying out the genocide

11:33

this governments who are continuing to

11:35

supply it with weapons are continuing to

11:37

allow it to use its bases like the base

11:40

the brsh base in Cyprus it is

11:42

governments that are supplying it with

11:46

intelligence uh like the British

11:48

government so these people are

11:50

definitely complicit in the genocide

11:52

itself and they cannot Escape it sooner

11:55

or later they will have to be held to

11:57

account they will be con consequences

12:00

they cannot continue with this you know

12:03

disguising reality and attempting to

12:06

circumvent what’s happening and so on

12:08

this complicity now is very clear and

12:11

they have to understand that they will

12:14

be considered part of a genocide that

12:17

took place and right now they may be

12:20

able to intimidate maybe the ICC or the

12:24

icj but I think at one point they will

12:28

see themselves also held accountable

12:30

before these International

12:32

courts uh Hanan a moment ago you

12:35

mentioned the uh the Israeli

12:36

government’s use of the Trump plan we’ve

12:39

seen these

12:40

leaflets uh showing images of both

12:43

Netanyahu and Trump and using the most

12:45

extraordinary biblical genocid language

12:48

uh imaginable so my question is um does

12:52

President Trump’s idea that Gaza can be

12:56

ethnically cleansed to make way for his

12:59

Gulf courses and

13:01

condominums and become an American

13:03

colony have any basis in reality now or

13:07

in the

13:08

future no never I I don’t know this I

13:12

can’t say it’s Cloud cuul land but I

13:14

think he’s not dealing with reality at

13:17

all and when people don’t understand the

13:21

history the culture and of course the

13:24

legal and moral imperatives of dealing

13:27

with Palestine then there are liable to

13:29

take positions and decisions that are

13:32

extremely dangerous right and you know

13:36

employing as we said fundamentalist

13:39

whether Old Testament ideology or

13:42

fundamentalist I mean it’s calling on

13:44

others to to lay claim to uh the word of

13:47

God in order to justify their

13:50

geopolitical positions and changes but I

13:53

think this is extremely dangerous

13:57

irresponsible there are there is no way

14:00

in which you can carry out the the

14:02

expansion of the whole people or you can

14:05

ethnically cleanse Gaza there are two

14:08

million people who have been battered

14:10

bombed massacred everything in their

14:13

lives destroyed including whole families

14:15

schools universities churches mosques uh

14:19

I mean everything the water system

14:23

system and uh they’re being starved to

14:27

death at the same time they are also

14:30

holding them captive in a state of Siege

14:32

totally entirely vulnerable without any

14:35

protection whatsoever and so you you end

14:38

up with these statements from Trump and

14:42

Netanyahu thinking that they can

14:43

reinforce each

14:45

other some people say it is the tail

14:48

wagging the dog it is you know

14:50

Israel imposing on Trump but many people

14:54

also believe that this is trums ideology

14:56

because of course he has his own

14:58

personal interest the same way as

15:00

Netanyahu has his own personal interest

15:03

to pursue the genocide and to maintain a

15:05

lethal fascist Coalition and place to

15:08

avoid going to prison himself uh and so

15:12

on so he has his own personal uh agenda

15:16

in the same way as Trump has his own

15:18

person agenda and when these this uh

15:22

populist fascist I would say meet their

15:24

interest meet they come up with the most

15:27

horrendous dis course political

15:29

discourse that is entirely not only

15:32

unacceptable but unapplicable the

15:34

Palestinians stayed in the land and they

15:37

are going to stay on their land even if

15:39

it means you know uh continuing the

15:41

Carnage The massacres the The Killing

15:45

and even if it means in the West Bank

15:48

continuing also the daily attacks the

15:51

the theft of land the destruction of the

15:53

refugee camps as we are seeing in order

15:56

to claim that there are no refugees and

15:59

and to try to avoid the refugee question

16:01

so this uh language this sh language I

16:05

think will allow uh both of them

16:08

ultimately to implode because when they

16:10

come face to face with reality they’re

16:12

going to be unable to uh force their own

16:16

decisions and their own policies now

16:19

Hannah Global opinion as you know is is

16:21

firmly with the Palestinian people um

16:24

but many people have this question it it

16:26

comes up all of the time what what is

16:29

the problem people say with the

16:32

political leadership in the Arab world

16:35

countries such as Saudi Arabia clearly

16:38

do have leverage with Trump so why are

16:40

they failing to use it yeah this is not

16:44

new actually uh the Palestinians feel in

16:48

many ways betrayed and abandoned I don’t

16:51

want to talk about a single Arab country

16:53

I mean it’s the whole world in many ways

16:55

other than the public other than public

16:57

opinion and people of conscience and of

16:59

course the South uh that has stood by

17:03

Palestine but the Arab world is not

17:06

monolithic and the leaderships are not

17:09

all of the same elk of

17:12

course many of them rely on uh the West

17:16

rely on the US rely on external forces

17:19

for their own legitimacy and Longevity

17:21

and Empower to stay in power uh like all

17:26

uh non-democratic systems they don’t

17:28

rely on their own people and the

17:30

approval of their own constituency in

17:33

order to stay in power because lacking

17:35

accountability within a democratic

17:37

system all they need to do is place

17:39

please their Patron and this is and and

17:42

what is ironic is that they don’t need

17:45

that Patron is that they have within

17:48

their own people and their own system

17:51

and their own resources they have

17:53

inherent power that they can use and

17:56

they’re not using it once they are in

17:58

sync with their own people and with the

18:00

requirements of genuine peace and

18:02

stability in the region they will take

18:05

positions in order to influence uh you

18:09

know the interests at least of of the

18:11

West because Trump you know wants to

18:13

make deals and he wants money and he

18:15

wants Investments Israel sort of takes

18:19

everything from the US and gives nothing

18:21

while the Arabs give the rich Arab

18:24

states give all the funding and support

18:26

and so on and get nothing in return

18:28

return

18:29

so once you address these things and you

18:32

address the the lack of democratic

18:35

accountability and decision making

18:36

within the other countries once they

18:38

listen to their own people then you will

18:41

begin to see a change and some um

18:44

governments have cast their lot with the

18:47

Israelis unfortunately and we see that

18:50

it it’s very very shameful but still uh

18:53

Israel will continue to wreak havoc

18:55

within the region not just in Palestine

18:58

uh throughout the and even Beyond

19:01

because it is the epitome it is the

19:04

quintessential uh impunity of lack of

19:07

regard for human rights for lives and

19:09

for a global rule of law and

19:11

international law and humanitarian law

19:13

and should they keep getting away with

19:15

it this is the lesson they’re sending to

19:18

the rest of the world so the Arab

19:20

countries should not feel that they are

19:22

safe or immune because they may be next

19:24

on the agenda and we saw what they’re

19:26

doing now in Lebanon they’re doing in

19:30

Syria For Heaven’s Sake they’re

19:32

attacking bombing and taking land this

19:35

is what Israel does it bombs destroys it

19:38

kills and it

19:40

steals this is the policy and they will

19:43

go beyond that because there are

19:45

fundamentalist extremist voices that are

19:47

talking about the land of Israel as

19:50

extending Way Beyond even Jordan

19:52

reaching Iraq and reaching and Syria and

19:55

whatever so if they don’t understand

19:59

that this is really not just a class of

20:02

civilizations but of

20:04

ideologies that that the Arab world is

20:07

being challenged as a whole and the tip

20:10

of the iceberg is is Palestine this is

20:13

the acid

20:16

test to be lost to be destroyed if they

20:19

allow all these horrific crimes to take

20:23

place against Palestine Israel is not

20:25

going to stop anywhere because it has

20:27

never honored a s agreement it has never

20:30

followed any kind of law or rule of law

20:34

it has never honored uh any kind of

20:36

ceasefire and it goes its own way and

20:39

when there is an opportunity to pursue

20:42

these lethal uh policies in pistan and

20:46

Beyond they will do it and this a

20:49

warning signal I think and the Arabs are

20:52

beginning to feel slightly insecure that

20:55

they may even if they hide behind the us

20:57

or other country countries that the US

21:00

is not a a stable partner that it might

21:04

change at will and that Israel quite

21:07

often does impose the policy on the US

21:10

as it SE fit and lacking accountability

21:13

who’s to stop

21:15

it Hannah many have said that um what

21:20

we’re seeing unfold in Gaza and in the

21:22

West Bank and East Jerusalem throughout

21:24

the occupied territories is a second ma

21:26

where you’ve just talked about Israel

21:28

expansion to Syria its Wars into Lebanon

21:32

and its ultimate aims um the question is

21:36

do you think that this NABA is now the

21:39

second NABA is worse than the first and

21:43

do you see any hope of Israelis and

21:46

Palestinians eventually living together

21:49

in

21:51

peace I mean it’s hard to think of theba

21:54

as being worse than the other theba is

21:56

an ultimate Injustice

21:59

and what we see what we are seeing now

22:02

is a

22:03

continuation of the original NBA is that

22:06

the ongoing nebar that we called it from

22:08

the beginning and as I said from the

22:10

beginning also that this is the policy

22:12

of Israel sometimes overt sometimes CT

22:16

sometimes in plain sight and sometimes

22:18

below the radar but this is the plan for

22:21

Israel and it has been taking place so

22:24

this is one phase of the nakba there

22:27

have been many phases but this is one of

22:30

the most painful most horrific most

22:32

destructive phases with the aim as they

22:36

say openly of totally ending the

22:39

Palestinian question according to the

22:42

Israeli plan they it’s very clear that

22:46

they feel that they have an opportun

22:48

opportunity now to destroy the

22:51

indigenous people to destroy the

22:52

Palestinians to expand uh towards

22:55

greater Israel and to carry out these

22:58

plans that were totally Unthinkable

23:01

before and now they are and they’re

23:03

unconscionable so I I would say this is

23:06

the most painful the most destructive I

23:09

mean many people say many Zionist say

23:13

they should have

23:14

completely uh eradicated the Palestinian

23:17

people and evacuate and K destroyed them

23:20

and and expelled them in

23:22

1948 but now they want to finish their

23:26

job and all those who are telling them

23:28

finish their job don’t just mean finish

23:31

their job in in Gaza and destroy the

23:34

gazan people or expel them or kill them

23:36

or completely eradicate Gaza there’s

23:39

very little left in Gaza as you know

23:41

over 70% 75% of all buildings homes have

23:45

been

23:46

destroyed and when they say finish the

23:48

job it’s destroy Gaza yes but also

23:51

finish the job of establishing greater

23:55

Israel on all of historical Palestine

23:57

and therefore whatever you do in Gaza

23:59

and the West Bank and even Beyond is

24:01

Justified and they use any means and

24:04

every means in order to inflict as much

24:08

pain and to create a rign of Terror

24:11

everywhere so that they can implement

24:13

this plan so this is an ongoing knar and

24:17

we are seeing I don’t want to say the

24:19

end result but we are seeing a very

24:22

serious escalation at this stage Helen

24:25

these are such dark and despairing times

24:28

but I’m just wondering finally if you’ve

24:30

got a message uh for the hundreds of

24:33

thousands of people right across the

24:35

world who March and demonstrate and

24:38

speak up and Lobby their elected

24:40

representatives and push and campaign

24:44

week after week uh in support of the

24:47

Palestines have you got a message for

24:49

them well I have lots of messages as a

24:52

message of Love of appreciation of

24:55

understanding of hope they are the only

24:57

people who are providing the

24:59

Palestinians with hope with a sense that

25:01

they are not alone they are not

25:03

abandoned and the more they speak out we

25:05

know that they are paying a price we

25:07

know that there are counter forces that

25:10

are as is happening in the US and in

25:13

Europe many European countries in the

25:16

west but these are people of Courage

25:19

people of Integrity people of conscience

25:22

people who will stand up regardless of

25:24

of the price they are not as in

25:27

intimidated like the governments they do

25:31

not have personal

25:33

selfin to Ser they are motivated by

25:36

their own principles by their own sense

25:38

of morality my message is one that the

25:41

Palestinians always repeat is that we

25:43

love these people we we see them we

25:46

appreciate what they’re doing and we

25:48

know the prices they are paying

25:50

especially now we’re talking about R

25:52

Cory for example and and others Tom har

25:57

and others who were uh killed in and

26:00

defending Palestine but these people are

26:04

living the right lives uh they are

26:07

living in order to ensure that they

26:09

embody the principles that are important

26:13

to humanity as a whole not the slogans

26:16

and cliches over rules based order and

26:19

respect for human rights and so on that

26:21

are totally

26:22

violated but they are living the real

26:25

sense of value that makes life worse

26:28

living

26:29

H and therefore they are the ones who

26:31

are giving the Palestinians hope and

26:34

they are a source of

26:36

encouragement hope and they tell us that

26:39

all is not lost and I think these are

26:42

the people who will be the leaders of

26:45

their own countries eventually they will

26:49

be the decision makers right now they

26:51

are being maybe beaten up or hosed or

26:54

whatever or imprisoned even or uh rained

26:59

But ultimately they will be in a

27:01

position to take decisions and hopefully

27:04

they will be the antidote to all the

27:07

mistakes to all the evils let’s say of

27:09

the current

27:11

system Dr Hannah nashra we thank you so

27:14

much for joining us thank you thank you

27:19

thank you and if you’ve enjoyed uh and

27:23

uh appreciated what we’ve heard today

27:25

from Dr Hannah do please think about

27:29

supporting the work of Palestine deep

27:31

dive um from as little as a pound a

27:33

month that’s all you have to spend

27:35

possibly more if you’d like to please go

27:36

to Palestine dive. comom support that’s

27:41

Palestine dive. comom support

27:45

[Music]

27:52

[Applause]

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

ooo

From The River to the Sea

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJhGdLWyJk)

From the River to the Sea: A Jewish Perspective” is a daring short film that champions the Palestinian cause for liberation. In an audience heavily influenced by the Zionist narrative and conditioned to dehumanize Palestinians, this film brings forth voices from the “other side” who self-testify to the realities of occupation, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Featuring distinguished Jewish-American and Israeli perspectives, it echoes the truths that Palestinians have long articulated, offering a powerful counter-narrative that seeks to promote liberation and genuine peace.

Bassem Raafat Mohamed Youssef is an Egyptian comedian, television host, and surgeon. He is best-known in his media career for having hosted Al Bernameg, a satirical comedy show focused on Egyptian politics, from 2011 to 2014. Youssef’s comedic style has led to him being dubbed “Egypt’s Jon Stewart” after Stewart’s satirical The Daily Show, which had itself inspired Youssef to pursue a career in television. In 2013, Youssef was named on Time 100. His current projects include The Democracy Handbook and Revolution For Dummies.

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