Palestina, erresilientzia (63)

Song, kanta

“My Name is Gaza“

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1809903714389385382

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oooooo

Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1820893196131692624

oooooo

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Scott Ritter@RealScottRitter

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Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil@ivan_8848

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Bideoa: https://x.com/i/status/1820746329607270678

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Ryan Rozbiani@RyanRozbiani

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@tobararbulu # mmt@tobararbulu

ooo

Bideoa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8bOTZ1TnTw

The United Michigan Muslim Association (UMMA) is officially recognized as a tax exempt 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. UMMA strives to create a community space for Muslim youth, adults, and families in the metro Detroit area that cultivates spiritual growth and learning, personal development, and social and spiritual bonds.

Transkripzioa:

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[Music]

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and now for our speaker for tonight’s program our

0:15

Palestine uh I never thought I would be inviting up someone who has such a a

0:22

storyed Legacy Fighting And discussing and teaching and act uh protesting on

0:31

behalf of an issue that has taken the Limelight for better and worse over the

0:37

last several months I want to make a note that today is June 7th that we all know what

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happened on October 7th 8 months ago we see the Carnage and destruction that

0:50

continues on to this day so today we are incredibly honored to have someone who

0:57

generally invites people to his apartment for interviews uh but Detroit

1:03

does it different and we’re going to bring him here and wanted to give us a

1:09

little bit of trouble in that process but are incredibly grateful to have uh

1:14

Professor Norman finklestein who received his PhD from Princeton University way back in

1:22

1987 and this is a man who has written dozens of books on the Palestinian

1:29

Israeli issue has done it every single day and has made this his life’s work

1:36

over many many decades and he has been an incredible champion on this issue and

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has been so poignant and poetic in the ways in which he addresses this issue

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and I can’t find another person in the world that has been able to beat him in a debate on this particular issue so if

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anyone out there thinks they’re going to try to one up uh Dr finlin got another thought coming for you today

2:02

so his most recent book is I’ll burn that bridge when I get to it heretical thoughts on identity politics cancel

2:09

culture and academic freedom was actually a book that was recommended to me by a good friend of mine in the audience uh just a couple months ago and

2:17

it’s been sitting on my shelf and I’ve been itching to read it but I just not had the fortitude to to pick it up but I

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think it’s very pointed discussion for that and Professor FR was named one of the

2:30

fifth most influ political scientists in the world

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so y’all know what to do when I bring him out right he’s already

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here ladies and gentlemen Professor Norman p [Applause]

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[Applause]

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free free Palestine

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from The River To The Sea how does my be free well thank you for having me um

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unfortunately because of the plane delays I won’t have nearly as much time

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as I hoped this evening however we do we

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do have the option of stuff you can’t do two CU for the

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feedback I I don’t think there’s going to be Fe they’ll turn it off okay I’ll turn it

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off well we have the option of maximizing the

4:16

productivity this evening so I think the agreement was i’ would be asked a few

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questions by the person who introduced me and then I’ll hear from you I’ll do

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my best not to repeat what I’ve said over the past eight months to talk about uh new

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uh new material and with that we should begin well uh we you’re just telling me

4:44

in the back uh Dr finlin that June 6

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1982 is the very beginning of your sort of Consciousness on the Israeli issue in

4:56

the academic lens can you share a little bit about what drove you to actually begin to do all the work that you have

5:03

done over the last several decades I’m going to try to be as brief as possible I was always from a very

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young age I was involved in politics that was not unusual in the

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1960s uh politics was in the air and

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politics was constantly a subject of debate and often uh heed disagreement

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the main issues in that era were of course the war in Vietnam and

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domestically the Civil Rights Movement later to be called the black power

5:43

movement um I knew about Palestine I knew about Israel and Palestine but I

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can’t say I was well educated on the subject read a few books uh and then

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came in June 1982 uh the Lebanon war

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uh and I became I was an active participant in opposing the war and uh

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at that point I began to seriously read on the subject and once I began to

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seriously read in the subject I decided maybe I would write my doctoral

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dissertation on the topic which I did so now I had an intellectual commitment to

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the subject I had a political commitment to the subject and being Jewish uh I had

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a personal colle connection to the topic and the all three

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converged now sometimes people think I have an obsession with the topic uh

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because it’s a lot of time has elapsed nearly now I guess it’s approximately 40

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41 or 42 years uh but it’s really not an

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obsession I think it would be more correct to Cod a certain

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stubbornness namely the conflict never found a resolution had it found a resolution I

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probably would have been politically engaged in something else but the

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conflict endures from when I first entered it in 198 to and I’m not a

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quitter so I persist it is true

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factually that by not by 2020 I did give up I thought the thing

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was absolutely hopeless and the books I was writing were

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becoming more and more and more and more detailed and I was was losing any

8:01

audience that I had so the last book I

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wrote uh on a very narrow topic having to do with Gaza it only sold

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350 copies according to my Ed my publisher and of those 350 I purchased

8:23

half so it wasn’t it wasn’t a very good

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showing uh actually the book turned out to be at this very moment it turned out

8:34

to be topical by a strange uh twist of fate the book was uh

8:42

called I accuse and it was directed at the person

8:49

who was then the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court a woman

8:56

named Fatu Ben suda from the The Gambia and the essence of the book was

9:03

to say that Fatu vinuda was a crook and she had conducted

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herself uh in a very uh corrupt way

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during the ICC the international criminal court hearings that had to do

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with Gaza and then it came out last week that in fact Israeli intelligence

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agencies had been trying to Blackmail Fatu Ben

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suda uh in my opinion uh they were successful in

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blackmailing her and I’ll have more to say about that in the future so that

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book may actually hit 400

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sales and of half of course I will purchase

10:03

myself so so if if we can just go back to your to your Beginnings because you

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your parents I first learned of you after operation protective Edge I

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was in I was in college in a famous video uh where I think many of us have

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seen it where you were sharing the story about your parents surviving alits and

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you weren’t going to let them weaponize the Holocaust in the name of of is how how does someone whose parents

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grew up Surviving the Holocaust Coming to America not have Israel and the

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concept of of Zionism which develops right after that to be at the Forefront

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of your upbringing was it not why was it not something that was Ed I I got to tell you I had roommates in college one

10:54

of them grew up Jewish one of them discovered his his ancestors uh were were in the Holocaust and uh became a

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very St Zionist so I’m curious what is it about your upbringing that did not

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lead you towards that direction well the simple answer to that question

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is experience in and of itself does not

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determine uh any single answer to that experience two people can go through the

11:28

identical experience and come out with totally different conclusions from that

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experience so in the case of the Nai Holocaust basically you could say there

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were two kinds of conclusions people drew one was never again to choose that

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uh we will now look after our own and uh we will do whatever needs to be

11:58

done to defend our own so that was the never again to Jews and my impression is

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I could be wrong most Jews who passed through the Nazi Holocaust came to that

12:13

conclusion but there was another group of people who came to the conclusion

12:18

never again to anybody so they pass to the exact same

12:24

conclusion excuse me the exact same experience where they walked away saying

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that uh everybody who is suffering oppression

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is worthy of and deserving of uh support and I would say not to idealize

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my parents they had many imperfections and one of the sad parts

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of getting older is you begin to discover in your own Mind’s Eye all the

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imperfections they had um not to

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say I myself don’t suffer from 10,000 imperfections as Gandhi liked to say I

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have 10,000 flaws and when Gandhi said it I think he meant it anybody who has

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self knowledge is aware of how many

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flaws character flaws they suffer from having said that I would say my parents

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at least in words in Words they conveyed the right

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message and that I like my two

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siblings these apples did not fall far from the

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tree um they’re probably things they would disagree with what I’m disagree

14:02

with me I don’t think there would be any

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disagreement about what I have to say about Gaza I’m very

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confident that they would totally agree with me and I have been asked that

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question the first time I appeared on Pierce Morgan’s program he did directly

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ask me what would my parents think and for me that’s a significant

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question namely I don’t want to ever be accused of betraying their

14:45

memory and I certainly would never want to

14:51

misrepresent who they were so even if if there is a disagreement

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I will express it I would say my parents would not agree with me on this but I

15:05

don’t believe as I said to Pierce Morgan and then I checked with my brother one

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of my brothers I did call him and ask him for an honest

15:17

assessment what would Mom and Dad have said and there was a concurrence between

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us on the question of Gaza there would be as the expression has it there would be

15:32

no daylight between us so I’m confident of that fact my parents had

15:40

different different personalities and they did end up

15:45

getting divorced although at the end of their lives they came back together because they both suffered from quite

15:52

horrible terminal illnesses but I remember my mother once saying however much you father father

15:59

and I disagreed about 10,000 Things strangely enough we never disagreed

16:05

about politics uh their politics were a little strange I can tell you um but strange

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for me in a very positive way because uh my parents as I said with all

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their flaws always keeping in mind that mine

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are many more than theirs for all their flaws one thing I could say with

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certainty my parents could not be bought

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they could not be purchased and there were many moments where those they they were there were

16:47

opportunities to capitalize on their experience during World War II but if it was at the

16:56

cost of saying something that didn’t believe they wouldn’t do it there was no

17:04

way so you were I’m going to reference your

17:10

interview from Case Western back in 2008 You’ actually uh spoke about 2 weeks

17:17

before the Invasion on on laza in December right before President

17:22

Obama sworn in and there was a lot more optimism uh on

17:31

your part in trying to figure out the ways in which folks can those that were

17:38

staunchly or staunchly Zionist and then we’ve seen over the several years that

17:45

there was a change the middle for the middle there was a change in a change in

17:50

perspective in terms of the intensity in which one should speak out on on the issue uh was Stronger can you share what

17:59

change because you also talked about how in 2020 you had given up uh what what caused you to give up and say you’ve

18:07

done everything you you could obviously October 7th reignited that but what shifts between’ 08 and 2020 in terms of

18:15

the optimism you had towards continuing to por this issue well uh on this

18:21

particular question historical perspective is very important so let’s

18:27

just take a couple of examples when Israel invaded Lebanon in

18:34

1982 actually up until Gaza after October 7th it was the worst blood leing

18:43

of any Israeli Invasion now that’s completely forgotten between June and September the

18:52

estimates are that Israel killed between 15 and 20,000

18:58

Palestinians and Civ Lebanese overwhelmingly

19:04

civilians if you take operation castled to which you were

19:11

referring operation castled it was approximately 1,400 people killed of

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whom about 1,200 were civilians 350

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children protective Edge which was seen correct directly in my view as a real

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horror show it was still on the order of about

19:37

2200 Palestinians killed uh the numbers on civilians vary but that they all all

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those numbers pale in comparison to what Israel did in Lebanon in

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1982 now each time there has been a massive blood leing be it Lebanon or

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Gaza each time that there has been a massive blood leing there has been

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varying reactions among the public it’s not been

20:15

uniform Lebanon represented the first major break in public opinion in the

20:23

United States but it was mostly limited to left liberal and liberal sectors it’s

20:32

very hard for young people in this audience to imagine but roughly up until

20:38

the Lebanon war Israel was seen as a leftist cause it was not seen as a

20:47

conservative or reactionary cause Israel was the land of the

20:54

Kim Israel was the land of socialists in power most of the original

21:03

zionists be it David benorian or Shimon Perez they were all seen as at the Left

21:09

End of the political Spectrum so it was not until Lebanon the public opinion among

21:19

liberals and left liberals began to

21:24

shift uh operation castled which began December

21:31

26th 2008 and ended January

21:36

17th 2009 for those of you who are uh old

21:42

enough to remember the demonstrations during castled were very large there was

21:49

a huge outpouring of support for the

21:55

Palestinians it felt as if it were a turning point in fact I wrote a book

22:03

shortly after the Lebanon excuse me shortly after operation castled and the

22:10

title was taken from an article by the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy and the

22:18

book was called this time we went too far because it seemed as if what Israel

22:28

was was doing in Gaza was on a totally different

22:33

scale and up until then it was a totally

22:39

different scale but now when you look back operation

22:45

castled was really as compared to now it was Small

22:52

Change by 2014 operation protective Edge which if

22:59

my memory is Right went from June 7th

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2014 to August 26th 2014 it was 51

23:14

days uh it was the reaction was very

23:19

muted because the International Community and even the domestic audience

23:26

had by this time grown grown inured that just means

23:32

hardened they had grown inur to Israel’s periodic what Israel calls mowings of

23:40

the lawn in Gaza so the reaction was not very strong to operation protective Edge

23:49

even though it was a horror show at the time the head of the international

23:56

Committee of the Red Cross a a person named Peter

24:01

moer when he toured Gaza after protective Edge he said never before

24:08

have I seen the degree of Destruction that I’ve seen in Gaza and that’s quite

24:15

a statement coming from the head of the icrc the Red

24:21

Cross but even that just to give you one comparison

24:28

after operation protective Edge it was

24:33

estimated that Israel had left behind 2.5 million tons of

24:42

rubbish the current estimate for Gaza is believe it or not as of last

24:50

month the estimate is 38 million tons of

24:56

rubbish as a matter of fact one of the I won’t call the amusing let’s just call it one

25:04

of this the silly aspects of the current Biden peace plan is it talks about a

25:13

fiveyear period of Rehabilitation of Gaza construction

25:20

Rehabilitation of Gaza that’s part of the peace plan but if you read the

25:26

expert opinion it will take a minimum a minimum of 10

25:33

years just to clear away the rubble 10 years because the rubble bear

25:41

in mind most of Gaza now 34 of Gaza by the time Israel completes its operation

25:50

and Rafa will be the whole of Gaza um it has been reduced to Gaza has been

25:58

reduced purposely to a howling Wilderness

26:03

there’s just nothing there it’s not just that people have lost their

26:10

homes the estimate now is approximately

26:15

1.1 million or maybe 1.2 million of the people of Gaza have no home to return to

26:23

it’s not just that people have lost their homes is

26:29

that they have no idea where to

26:34

return because they don’t have a block anymore

26:41

they don’t have a neighborhood anymore it’s

26:46

completely unrecognizable there was an interesting story I happened to loathe the person

26:55

but the chief the chief New York Times correspondent over there his name is

27:03

Patrick Kingsley H this was about a month or two

27:09

into the Israeli assault on Gaza he was standing

27:15

in a place or as he describes it in the article he’s standing in a place and he

27:21

turned to the Israel officer next to him and he said where are we

27:29

and the officer named the place and he

27:34

said I used to spend a lot of time here he had no idea where he

27:40

was and that’s basically what Gaza is now now to return to your

27:48

question obviously uh after October

27:54

7th uh we entered a new f in many respects but one aspect clearly

28:02

is the international and United States the domestic

28:09

reaction a large part of it a large part of it is simply due

28:16

obviously to the magnitude of Destruction and to the changed nature of

28:24

the Israeli objective is my opinion having studied

28:29

it quite closely for a large chunk of my adult life that there’s nothing

28:37

qualitatively different about what Israel is doing in Gaza it always

28:45

targeted civilians it always targeted

28:51

schools it always targeted hospitals it always targeted

28:59

un workers journalists that’s not new that’s old

29:07

news the magnitude however has changed

29:12

and to indicate what has changed in the mag magnitude I think an ex a the

29:21

following expression does indicate the change during Israel

29:29

high tech Killing Spree in Gaza um castled pillar of the fense

29:37

protective Edge Israel described it as we’re mowing

29:43

the L that was the uh metaphor they used you

29:50

might note a very sick metaphor

29:56

because half of Gaza is children so when you talk about taking a

30:05

mower into Gaza you’re talking

30:10

about smashing the skulls of

30:17

children the very fact that that

30:22

metaphor was so casually used for a

30:30

population half of whom are children and that it never

30:39

registered how pathological that metaphor is tells

30:47

you about the sensibility of the

30:52

mainstream society when it came to GM but the difference now was very

31:00

Stark up until October 7th the goal was to mow the

31:07

lawn but now the goal is different the goal now is there’s a fancy word exter

31:16

Pate anyone here know what that word means I’m going to be disappointed if nobody knows it’s unacceptable there are

31:23

a lot of young people in this room and I do not accept I see an old hand in the back I don’t

31:30

want to see one hand there should be many hands up come on guys

31:37

yes not exactly to destroy uh

31:46

yes stand

31:53

up this is our Arab Muslim web can you say it again remove it from the

32:02

root yes it means to pull out by the root

32:07

and good for you for that um the goal now is to exter Pate to pull

32:17

out from the root every blade of grass in

32:22

gosip uh which in the terminology of the current Israeli government which they’ve

32:28

repeated many many a Time the goal is to make Gaza

32:36

uninhabitable to make Gaza unlivable and in fact uh When I Was

32:45

preparing the uh preparing after October 7th because I

32:51

had forgotten a lot of the details uh I was rereading the book on Gaza can you just bring it up if you

32:57

don’t mind um thank you so so much and at the

33:03

very end um we’ll

33:17

see here at the very end of the book when I was rereading it I came across uh

33:25

this uh statement by Israeli this was 2015 and the Israeli the senior Israeli

33:33

official he said another war with Gaza

33:38

is inevitable we cannot conduct a constant

33:46

War of Attrition namely keep mowing the lawn we keep mowing the lawn he said

33:53

therefore the next conflict has to be the last conflict and it

34:02

turned out those weren’t my words this a senior Israeli official but the words were prophetic that they were not going

34:12

to keep mowing the lawn the next conflict would be the last conflict and

34:19

that’s their intention now so um there are many aspects of the

34:28

international reaction and I will be happy during questions and answers to

34:33

talk about because it’s at many different levels uh one of the

34:40

extraordinary aspects of what’s happened since October 7 is you see it’s

34:47

constantly the center is changing one day it’s the international

34:53

court of justice one day it’s the international Criminal Court one day

35:00

it’s the student demonstrations one day is the

35:06

extraordinary outpouring of support from un agencies there was a long time when

35:14

you relied on un agencies for factual data they were very

35:21

reliable but now you have the UN officials the officials in the World

35:29

Health Organization the world food program the

35:37

uh food and agriculture organization a large number they’re

35:43

speaking out with I would have to say an impressive amount of courage and

35:52

persistence you even have which I can’t ever remember before for the Secretary

35:59

General of the UN in this case Gutierrez who has actually been quite

36:04

good at the beginning right after October 7th no but it was very tough

36:10

right after October 7th for obvious reasons so the uh the

36:17

reaction has been at many different levels and in my opinion has been

36:25

morally very impressive why do I say that because at the end of

36:31

the day Gaza is a

36:36

poor powerless stateless people the people of

36:42

Gaza are poor powerless and

36:48

stateless so to be in solidarity with the people of Gaza means it’s a

36:56

solidarity with without any benefits it’s not what they say the

37:01

Latin expression quit proquo which basically means this for that or you

37:08

wash my hand I wash yours you scratch my back I scratch yours no there is no

37:16

return for supporting Gaza it’s pure

37:22

pristine uncorrupted unblemished solid

37:28

arity and the fact that there has been such a outpouring of

37:35

solidarity it’s just very at a moral level it’s very

37:42

impressive I don’t have to tell any young people in this room how expensive college

37:50

is and I don’t have to tell any young people or their parents How concerned

37:58

everybody is about finding a job after they

38:04

graduate or how concerned many people in this room are about getting into a good

38:11

law school a good medical school a good Professional

38:17

School in light of all those considerations to see the young people

38:25

on college campuses risking

38:31

suspension risking exposion

38:37

risking being blacklisted as they pursue their

38:43

professional careers risking not being able to attend

38:50

as many people young people were not able to attend their

38:56

graduations or for a poor stateless powerless people

39:04

halfway around the world and when you consider how many

39:12

causes young people have good reason to worry about climate

39:19

change nuclear war an economy that’s failing about 80%

39:27

of our country and they chose of all the

39:33

challenges facing them all the causes that they could have chosen to

39:41

invest in the fact that They seized on

39:48

Gaza and not withstanding the real

39:54

sacrifices that that entailed and to persist and

40:01

persist and persist it’s a very impressive sight to

40:08

behold there was an anti-war movement in my generation for sure and I will never

40:18

deny the moral element the genuine

40:24

pain that people felt at seeing the

40:29

systematic destruction and incineration of

40:35

Vietnam and that was all real but and it’s not really a but it’s

40:41

just looking at the full picture there was an aspect to the war of a genuine

40:48

fear of being drafted into it that was not a trivial concern if you were a

40:56

student you got what was called a 4-year deferment for your college

41:02

Years but then you were up for being drafted and dying in

41:08

Vietnam we had in our country at the time what was called a lottery and the

41:14

lottery basically meant they put 365 uh uh name uh 365 chips in a bag and

41:25

if they pulled out your birthday within the first 200 numbers it was a

41:34

problem later when our involvement began to diminish within the first 150 numbers it

41:43

was a problem so there was what you can call a

41:50

self-interest in opposing the war in Vietnam now I don’t want anyone to walk

41:55

away thinking that was the only concern no there was a genuine moral

42:02

outrage at what was being done to the people of Vietnam but in the case of

42:09

Gaza the truth is there is no

42:14

self-interest it’s a genuine feeling of solidarity with a people who have been

42:25

martyred I don’t like uh just for the record I never promote my book for those

42:30

of you who’ve seen me on YouTube you will notice everybody else they have the

42:36

book sitting on their back bookshelf behind or they hold it up or they ask the moderator I never do that I don’t

42:43

want to ever be seen as trying to profit from what has been done to the people in

42:51

Gaza but I’ll just mention that when I wrote the book uh Gaz and inquest into

42:57

its martyrdom uh there were it’s a university press and the university

43:02

press means other professors or experts have to look at the book and there was a

43:11

objection raised to the title of the book One

43:17

Professor who’s actually well known and supportive of Palestinians he says he

43:23

said I don’t think an academic book should have the word martyrdom in it

43:32

it’s unacademic and I

43:37

said too bad that

43:46

that’s that that’s what’s been done to the people of Gaza they have been

43:55

martyred and that

44:01

reality not everybody knows every

44:07

detail but after October 7th that reality set

44:15

in and we have to be Rec we have to be

44:21

cognizant that public awareness shifts over

44:27

time castled a lot of public awareness protective Edge much less and

44:36

actually the worst showing came in

44:44

2018 during gaza’s great March of return

44:49

when they attempted a nonviolent civil resistance to end the blockade of Gaza

44:58

and even though it was quite horrific what Israel did during the

45:05

Great March of return it brought in its best

45:11

snipers lined them up along the perimeter with

45:17

Gaza and then as the UN report an authoritative un report it runs to 250

45:25

Pages singles space it said that Israel

45:33

targeted children targeted or to use their

45:38

language intentionally targeted children intentionally targeted

45:45

journalists intentionally targeted Medics and

45:52

intentionally targeted disabled people

45:57

it targeted double ues it did they were 300

46:04

M away from the perimeter fence they were sitting in a

46:11

wheelchair they were on crutches and they were

46:18

targeted uh the International Community and even the Palestine solidarity

46:23

Community totally ignored the great March of return I don’t think there was one demonstration in the United States in

46:30

support of it um so I think we have to be

46:37

cognizant that people forget and it’s

46:43

possible that they will forget once the conflict is once the

46:49

current round is over it’s possible people will

46:55

forget but it’s also possible that that Scarlet Letter G for

47:05

genocide has now been permanently a fixed on the state of

47:12

Israel and it

47:19

will it will not be washed away even with time if won’t be eroded

47:28

or worn away that’s a real I think that’s a that Israel uh has

47:36

now crossed a line even though as I said I thought that was true and castled but

47:41

Israel has crossed the line from which there will be no return the very

47:49

fact the very fact that there is a public

47:55

debate about whether or not Israel’s committing genocide represents a completely new

48:03

level of public awareness you couldn’t it was impossible to debate it now some

48:10

people deny it some people affirm it but the fact that you’re having a

48:16

debate about whether Israel is a genocidal state is something completely

48:23

new and I think there’s a reasonable Prospect that it will not go

48:30

away so you you talk when you talk about debate I want to bring up what is I

48:38

think one of the greatest academic uh clapbacks I’ve ever seen it’s when you

48:44

uh wrote an entire book to argue against professor dua’s

48:51

book which I know I know you’re from New York so uh Nas’s Ether was the greatest

48:58

rap uh comeback to Jay-Z ever so you and Nas have a very similar uh style in

49:05

terms of when you want to go after the person you pick the medium in which they tried to come after you uh but not

49:12

everybody can can do that not everyone can be Nas not every can be Dr finlin so

49:18

for those of us that care about this issue and want to keep fighting this I think

49:24

there’s a couple tensions that arise number one we are seeing the Fidelity of

49:29

the institutions that you mentioned HRA the United Nations the ICC the court of

49:35

justice anytime there’s a disagreement we there’s an attempt to delegitimize

49:41

and we see this happen in the United States if I don’t like the outcome of the election I’ll question the Integrity of the actual voting process how does

49:49

one navigate that if this seems to be the medium in which people debate Now by

49:55

just delegitimizing those institutions if that’s the first argument that we have to make and then

50:01

the second Point around the solidarity piece when people cheapen that solidarity to say it is rooted in

50:07

anti-Semitism that the fervor for love of the lesen people and the Palestinians

50:14

is actually subliminally because of the hatred that folks may have of the Jewish peoples so how can one navigate that and

50:21

and I’ll give you a a threepiece uh a lot of young folks are are protesting

50:27

and I know when you visited Colombia you gave some sound advice that there has to be an an ability to engage in a way that

50:36

continues to bring people and not alienate so the style in which folks protest the way in which people discuss

50:42

the issues there has to be a calculus to continue to build the pro peace Pro

50:47

Palestine uh perspective so I know you have a memory like zachik so I believe

50:53

you’re going to answer all those questions and if you don’t know Zach is a is a famous theologist in the Muslim

50:58

Community who can cite any page any verse of of any text he discusses

51:04

similar to your style well I had all those questions

51:10

registered in my mind but when you said that just I knew just

51:16

evaporate um I I I will go through them uh it’ll

51:24

come it’ll come to me um it just don’t tell

51:32

me okay oh okay the first

51:37

question uh has to do with what kinds of sources do you use to convince people

51:46

and there there has been a very dramatic change since October 7th up until

51:52

October 7th those who tried to convey a true picture about what’s going on they

51:59

generally relied on the human rights organizations Amnesty International

52:05

Human Rights Watch there was the Israeli information center for human rights in

52:10

the occupied territories called B salum and there are the Palestinian human

52:16

rights organizations and that was the main source of evidence because they

52:23

appeared to be neutral and professional the argument is if you

52:30

accept what Human Rights Watch has to say about uh cashmir and if you accept

52:36

what Human Rights Watch has to say about um the Kurds then why don’t you accept

52:42

what they have to say about Israel and Palestine right but since October 7th

52:48

it’s a very noticeable fact for people like myself who read the factual

52:55

data that if you for example look at the South Africa application to the

53:02

international court of justice it’s 84

53:08

Pages it has literally hundreds of

53:13

footnotes and many of the footnotes have many sources in a footnote so it’s a

53:22

huge undertaking by the South African government what struck me

53:29

most was they didn’t use human rights

53:35

organizations they just cited un sources and un was always considered to

53:43

be objective sources they’re very professional they are they’re a very professional organization and they’re

53:50

generally not swayed by personal or part Artisan

53:57

conviction they are accurate and it was a real

54:03

eyeopener for me to see that now the

54:09

whole uh bureaucratic institutional uh

54:16

Network every organization as I mentioned earlier that you know everybody knows who World Health

54:23

Organization everybody here knows UNICEF everybody here

54:30

knows um let me take another common one

54:36

well well onra you know but onra unra was always seen as a little partisan I’m

54:42

just taking the most you know the World Bank the international monetary fund and

54:51

they were coming out with these very sharp statements

54:57

and that to me it was a nice thing to see people

55:02

found their moral voice they found their spine they found their

55:09

backbone you even see a significant not overwhelming but a significant number of

55:17

defections Even in our own US State Department of people who are saying we

55:24

cannot accept producing or publishing lies about

55:31

what’s going on on in Gaza under our name and they have left their job some

55:40

publicly others privately so I would say at this particular point in time there

55:47

is no lack of sources and factual evidence to

55:56

draw on it’s a very impressive case that has been made most

56:05

notably by South Africa in the international court of

56:10

justice now that leads us to the second question which is the question of um

56:20

trying to delegitimize what’s being what’s now out in the open trying

56:28

to Del delegitimize it by saying it all Springs from

56:36

anti-Semitism and the question is how do you answer that I would say one another remarkable

56:47

fact of the moment is how many of uh how many of

56:53

those who are protesting uh and who are in the Forefront so to

57:00

speak in the Vanguard how many of those people are Jewish and

57:06

so [Music] um it’s uh you have to if there’s any

57:16

moment to laugh you have to laugh at things like Columbia

57:22

University in order to fight anti-semitism on its campus the president suspended

57:30

students for justice in Palestine and Jewish voices for

57:36

peace [Music] no they don’t even see the

57:41

absurdity of what they’re saying I there’s no there’s a complete

57:47

lack of selfawareness by these individuals when they are accusing

57:56

Jewish organizations of being so anti-semitic and posing such a threat to Jews that

58:03

they have to be suspended their activities have to be

58:08

suspended um I will say because I try to look at questions from all

58:16

sides we are now in one of those moments where some aspects of what’s

58:23

going on are very difficult to

58:29

articulate because it seems to enter the terrain of

58:38

anti-Semitism and then how do you articulate certain facts which can get

58:45

you into trouble so let’s take an obvious one which I have spoken about

58:55

even though I recog ognize it causes

59:00

problems if you take the case of the assaults on

59:06

the encampments in the various colleges if you look at

59:13

Harvard who was the assault led by at Harvard it was led by a fellow named

59:19

William William Amman who is a Jewish

59:24

billionaire who gave large amounts of money to

59:30

Harvard if you look at the assaults for example at Columbia

59:37

University it was led by Robert Craft who is a Jewish

59:44

billionaire who had given a large amount of money to

59:50

colia if you look at Brown University it was led

59:56

by the assaults were led by a person named Barry sterli who’s a Jewish

1:00:05

billionaire now I will try to give you a full answer to that problem number one

1:00:14

Jews as an ethn religious group they are the wealthiest the the categor is called

1:00:21

ethn religious they are the wealthiest uh ethn religious group in the United

1:00:28

States so there is a lot of wealth Jews also historically and you

1:00:34

could say for good and for bad but we’ll just say historically they are very well

1:00:41

organized uh as a ethnic group you would say uh as compared to let’s take the

1:00:49

example of Chinese in our country now Chinese are a very uh distinct presence

1:00:57

now in the top schools in our country uh however they’re not well

1:01:04

organized politically the first really National figure of Asian descent was

1:01:11

Andrew Yang and and that was a very short period but um so yeah he was a disaster

1:01:19

on many issues I know that um so Jews have a lot of wealth they’re very well

1:01:27

organized and it is a thing so to speak among Jews to give large amounts of

1:01:35

money to cultural institutions to

1:01:41

libraries to museums to universities uh that is a fact Jews

1:01:48

derive a certain amount of pride from giving to cultural institutions if you

1:01:57

walk in you know in New York City if you uh now it’s the thing to display the

1:02:04

names of the donors and if you walk into 42nd Street Library the research library

1:02:10

in New York or you walk into the uh Lincoln Center or you just look at the

1:02:19

names on the buildings namly a person endowed the building they are

1:02:27

overwhelmingly Jewish and that you could say is a good

1:02:32

thing that Jews attach a lot of value to

1:02:38

culture and enlightened institutions however it’s now turned

1:02:45

into a bad thing because it means that

1:02:50

they can use that huge financial

1:02:56

leverage to engage in an outrageous assault on academic freedom

1:03:05

and freedom of speech on our college campuses but you’re not allowed to say

1:03:13

it you could say billionaires but you can’t say Jewish

1:03:22

billionaires and I would say that’s a tough question I I’ll be honest about it some

1:03:30

people don’t like it when I say that but I said it’s factually true there is a

1:03:37

Jewish Lobby that is carrying out now in

1:03:44

particular it used to be behind the scenes but it really isn’t anymore now

1:03:52

these folks say very publicly if if you don’t Stamp Out These

1:03:59

encampments you’re not getting our money and it’s a lot of

1:04:04

money you know we’re talking about people who give $100 million here $50

1:04:11

million there it’s not small change and I was speaking to the

1:04:19

president of this institution earlier I was asking him just out of

1:04:26

curiosity uh has he felt the pressure from the Board of Trustees cuz that’s

1:04:32

where the real pressure comes from uh in the case of Harvard was the Harvard

1:04:37

Corporation where the pressure was coming from and he said no which

1:04:43

actually quite surprised me but as he will tell you I think he will attest and

1:04:49

he’ll have an opportunity to answer me if he thinks I’m mistaken at least at the main universities

1:04:56

where called you know the IV League or the elite institutions the president of a

1:05:01

university has only one job there’s only one job I mean you’ll be surprised you’ll probably think oh it’s curriculum

1:05:09

it’s core courses it no a president has one job

1:05:14

fundraising that’s the president’s job so when you go to a president and you

1:05:21

say I’m going to not only withhold

1:05:26

my money but I’m going to organize all the Jewish

1:05:32

alumni not to give you will recall after

1:05:37

William Amman publicly called for the resignation of Claudine gay at Harvard

1:05:46

very soon thereafter 1200 alumni sent a letter to

1:05:52

Harvard if you don’t get rid of her no more money

1:05:57

so I would say there the how do you how do you speak

1:06:05

accurately and truthfully about the facts but don’t get yourself into

1:06:12

way uh into a difficult situation about is this anti-semitic to say it I don’t

1:06:19

believe it’s anti-semitic because if Bernie Sanders

1:06:27

goes uh on the stage during the presidential primary

1:06:34

and every time he was out there he was talking about big farma or

1:06:40

Crooks that’s the language he was using big farmer or Crooks that’s just a factual

1:06:49

statement there is in our country where there was for those of you who whose

1:06:54

memories back there was a very powerful Cuba Lobby which distorted American

1:07:01

policy having to do with Cuba you were allowed to say that there was a Cuba

1:07:06

Lobby everybody knows there’s a gun lobby and the gun lobby has in my

1:07:13

opinion had a disastrous impact on American life so if you can speak freely about

1:07:22

those lobbies I don’t see why why one should be

1:07:28

denied the right to say that yes there is a problem here it’s not the only

1:07:36

problem I do I believe that President Biden is

1:07:43

concerned about the financial contributions from Jews uh if

1:07:51

he doesn’t tow the party line but we have to also in my opinion we have to be

1:08:00

cognizant of the fact that the US has its own

1:08:06

interests in promoting Israel it’s not just Jewish

1:08:12

puppeteers uh the US has invested a lot in Israel’s military and Technical

1:08:22

proficiency to protect us interests in the region and it’s not just about the lobby

1:08:31

for those of you who listen to the speeches of sad

1:08:37

Nala uh sad Nala always

1:08:42

emphasizes that Israel is he being the head of the

1:08:48

Hezbollah he always emphasizes that Israel is serving us Imperial interests

1:08:56

he does not focus on the ethnic Jewish Lobby he

1:09:03

focuses on the Strategic interest that the US has in

1:09:10

the Middle East and in investing in Israel so I think it’s both it’s the

1:09:18

Strategic interest and it’s also a very powerful well organized Lobby I believe

1:09:25

it’s both I don’t think we should be onesided about it we should see both

1:09:32

sides but on the other hand I don’t believe we should be uh we should feel gagged about saying hey these guys are

1:09:40

out of control they’re carrying on a kind of public

1:09:46

blackmail either you uh even with our own mayor in New York if you follow the

1:09:52

story a few weeks ago in the Washington Post they called up the mayor Eric

1:09:58

Adams who’s both supremely corrupt and supremely

1:10:04

incompetent and they and they said to him if you don’t crush these protests

1:10:12

we’re not going to support you in the next election now I will tell

1:10:18

you I’ve been to many a demonstration in my day New York now looks like an armed

1:10:25

Camp I’ve never seen anything like it there are just every time there’s a

1:10:31

demonstration there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cops like what

1:10:39

is going on here and then you figure now I know what’s going on here because Eric Adams

1:10:48

got the orders Crush these demonstrations or you’re not getting our

1:10:54

support and I think we should be honest about I think we I think it’s difficult but we

1:11:02

should be honest about that if we are you know I can understand that people don’t want to say it because it’s going

1:11:07

to get them in trouble but I I will say uh and that brings us

1:11:16

to uh that that brings us well I could say

1:11:23

cuz I’m on my way out

1:11:28

um pretty it’s pretty dark I see the Shadows

1:11:36

um and that brings me to that last question which in some ways I’m going to

1:11:42

contradict what I just said but if I contradict what I just said it’s not

1:11:48

because I’m unaware of the contradiction it’s that life is is not

1:11:56

easily resolved into Simple Solutions

1:12:01

and uh non-contradictory

1:12:07

statements sometimes you contradict yourself because the reality itself is

1:12:15

contradictory so I was asked about

1:12:21

comments I made when I attended the Columbia University

1:12:27

encampment in which I said that we have to remember to be

1:12:35

responsible in political in our political lives this is not about

1:12:43

posturing and posing for the cameras it’s not trying to show

1:12:50

everybody else how pure you are and how

1:12:56

impure everybody else is it’s not a

1:13:02

narcissistic or sopis Endeavor it’s

1:13:08

about people being mercilessly

1:13:15

slaughtered mercilessly slaughtered not just now not just

1:13:22

yesterday but for a sustained period of time and our goal is to at the

1:13:32

very least the very minimum to mitigate to

1:13:39

lessen the horror that’s been inflicted on those

1:13:47

people and it seems to me the first lesson has to

1:13:53

be that we want to increase our

1:13:58

numbers we want to as the Chinese revolutionary

1:14:05

madong used to say we want to unite the many to defeat the

1:14:13

few sometimes uh you get the impression that

1:14:19

some people want to unite the many against us

1:14:25

that’s not a wise strategy so that brings me to the

1:14:32

question of political slogans slogans many people think

1:14:39

slogans are like some advertising jingle if it Rhymes and it has a nice

1:14:47

Rhythm it’s a good slogan so everybody loves the slogan from the river to the

1:14:55

sea Palestine will be free and it has a nice rhyme and a nice

1:15:05

Rhythm and I can tell you it also has

1:15:12

longevity because when I was the age of the youngest person in this room who’s

1:15:19

probably around 3 years old that slogan was being chck

1:15:26

so some people out of a sense of loyalty to the cause will insist on the

1:15:34

slogan the question is well questions are actually many

1:15:41

because slogans are very complicated Affairs I won’t go through all of it now

1:15:48

but the first question is slogans should have two goals

1:15:55

there should be a it should set a

1:16:01

goal which unites the many and it should be

1:16:07

absolutely unambiguous so there’s no wiggle room for the other side to

1:16:14

exploit so let me illustrate concretely because I like to be

1:16:20

concrete one of the great one of the reasons the Bernie centers

1:16:25

campaign was such an unexpected success a resounding event even as Bernie

1:16:32

Sanders himself when he set out he thought I was just going to get a few people attending my rallies and then it

1:16:38

turned out to be like mushrooms after a rain why was it so

1:16:45

successful I believe one of the reasons of his success

1:16:50

was he chose a few slogans which resonated with about 80% of the

1:17:00

population and which were absolutely crystal clear everybody when

1:17:08

they heard Bernie Sanders they knew Medicare for all everybody knew he

1:17:15

wouldn’t let you forget if he’s speaking to 10 people a 100 people a thousand

1:17:21

people if it’s Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday he never

1:17:28

missed an opportunity to say Medicare for all why did he do that some people

1:17:34

said oh I wish you wouldn’t just keep saying that but no he was a very smart very shrewd with politics he knows that

1:17:42

political junkies will listen to him on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday because they have

1:17:48

nothing else to do with their life so they’re listening but most people will

1:17:53

only hear him once most people will only hear him once so

1:17:58

he’s not going to miss the opportunity secondly he knew that that

1:18:06

demand resonated for 80% he also knew to

1:18:15

Target that handful where he kept calling that big

1:18:21

farmer those Crooks he described stories actually one

1:18:26

of them I think was from Detroit about how he took people over the bridge to Canada from Detroit and they were able

1:18:33

to get insulin at like on10th the cost so he knew unite the many

1:18:43

80% support that Medicare for all the feat the few isolate the enemy

1:18:51

big farmer and it was very successful among his other slogans which

1:19:00

every young person in this room will know abolish student

1:19:05

debt another slogan abolish College tuition and so forth that was a very

1:19:14

shrewd political campaign so now let’s turn to the from the river to the Sea

1:19:25

first of all there’s the problem of in my opinion and we’re of course free to

1:19:32

disagree there’s the problem of the ambiguity I said a SLO a good political

1:19:39

slogan has no ambiguity whatsoever there’s no

1:19:45

room for the other side to exploit the

1:19:50

slogan against you but as everybody in this room will acknowledge I

1:19:58

believe everybody will acknowledge that particular slogan from

1:20:05

The River To The Sea Palestine will be free it is

1:20:10

ambiguous as to what fate it

1:20:17

consigns those who are not Jewish some people will say well all it

1:20:22

means is we all live together but other people will say oh no that’s

1:20:28

not what it means it means that those folks have to leave and if you listen for

1:20:36

example to S Nala’s most his speeches since October

1:20:44

7th I mention him because I consider him uh extremely smart he’s certainly the

1:20:51

most uh

1:20:57

um okay um we’re out of time but I’ll just finish the thought if you listen to

1:21:04

S Nala’s speeches since October 7th he’s

1:21:10

been saying every Israeli has two passports they have an Israeli passport

1:21:17

and they have a French passport they have an Israeli passport and they have a British passport and he says they should

1:21:25

start using that second

1:21:32

passport I’m not I’m not going to comment uh on whether I agree or

1:21:40

disagree but I would comment that I think everybody

1:21:47

recognizes that ambiguity in the slogan and then you have to ask ask

1:21:56

yourself is it politically wise to use a

1:22:03

slogan with that builtin ambiguity that allows the other side to

1:22:11

exploit it against you is that politically

1:22:18

smart if our goal is to build as big a

1:22:23

coalition as possible now you can easily amend that slogan to

1:22:33

from The River To The Sea Palestinians will be free that

1:22:40

says that says the same thing I believe with less

1:22:50

ambiguity you can also amend it to from

1:22:55

The River To The Sea one person one vote Palestine will

1:23:03

be free from The River To The Sea one

1:23:09

person one vote Palestine will be free the problem with that is some

1:23:17

people don’t want one person one vote

1:23:22

they want an Arab Palestine and as

1:23:29

Nella sorry Nella says and if you don’t like it use your second passwort

1:23:41

so you you have to in my opinion and I have to leave it at that

1:23:47

otherwise I will be miss my flight unless one of you have a private

1:23:53

Charter you you you folks have to

1:23:58

intelligently and rationally argue about it on your own I

1:24:04

not here to give marching orders you’re a new generation you have to figure that

1:24:12

out for yourself I would just say not patronizingly not

1:24:19

condescendingly but just based on life’s wisdom and all the errors I made as a

1:24:27

young person I would just say there’s an africanamerican spiritual the title The

1:24:35

it goes keep your eyes on the prize keep your eyes on the priz which

1:24:43

means never never forget what this is about this is about the modom of the

1:24:51

people of Gaza and trying to figure out the maximum we can do if not to end the

1:24:59

horrors at least to mitigate the horrors and I’ll just end with one of Bernie

1:25:06

Sanders slogans which I rather liked he would say it’s not about me it’s about

1:25:15

us we have to do our best to repress our

1:25:20

ego and to remember it’s about that big cause it’s not about us excuse

1:25:29

me it’s not about me it’s about us and what we can do that will best contribute

1:25:37

to the cause because after all I think that’s what the people of Gazo would

1:25:43

want thank you

1:25:50

[Applause]

oooooo

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